parker gun part swapping

[Vincent Pascucci]

I obtained a Parker 12 gauge about a year ago. As I have family living near Turnbull's shop, I brought it in to them during a visit. They noted that the forend had a different serial number than the barrels and frame. These were made in 1903 and were GH grade while the forend was from the 1920's and a lower grade based on the engraving. The Turnbull folks said this was a common occurrence due to breakage, having multiple guns in a house and mismatching the parts during cleaning, etc. They did say they could take the forend I have and weld in the sn, stamp the correct sn for my barrels and frame, and do the proper engraving for the grade. However, I didn't want to go that route mostly due to not wanting to modify the original forend I have even though it is not the original for the gun.

I was wondering if there was a site for swapping parts on the rare chance of actually finding that someone might have the correct sn forend for my gun or need the one I have to match the sn of their gun?

[Bob Jurewicz]

Vincent,
Try posting for what you need in the sale section of this site and doublegunshop.com.
Bob Jurewicz

[Vincent Pascucci]

Sorry for the dumb question - but where is the sale section of the site?

[Richard Flanders]

You have to be a PGCA member and know the 'secret handshake' to see it I believe.

[Vincent Pascucci]

That would certainly limit my options.

By the way, great avatar photo - as a private pilot it is a scene I'd love to dive into.

[Bill Murphy]

Vincent, I'm sure you could get away with posting the serial number of your gun and the serial number of your forend on this thread. We are always interested in hearing about a new Parker.

[Russ Jackson]

Of Course Bill is correct ,but we always like to have new Members also !!!!!!!!!!! Its a good place to hang out ! Russ

[Jerry Andrews]

Since becoming a member I no longer have an electric bill, truck payment or vet bills for the dogs. This is great! What an association! Jerry

[Bob Jurewicz]

Sounds more like a forecloser!
Bob Jurewicz

[Jerry Andrews]

Yes, or government suppliments we seem to be so good at handing out in this country! Jerry

[Vincent Pascucci]

The frame and barrels are SN 119568. The forend is 216041. So if anyone has forend 119568 or needs 216041 and is willing to trade a GH forend for it, so I'd at least have matching grades if not SN's, I'd be interested.

As for 119568, since this is the first time it's come to light in many decades, I'll share what little I know about it. It belonged to my father-in-law. It was sitting in a gun cabinet in his basement for the 25 years I knew him. I never took a look at it until after he died. That's when I realized it was a true damascus barrel and was clearly a cut above the twist steel barrel on an old double barrel my great grandfather used into the 1950's. It was an H&H, I think. I suspect the Parker hasn't actually been used in at least 60 years. My mother-in-law believes it actually came from her side of the family. I assume based on that that it was used around the coal country of Pottsville, PA going back into the 1940's and perhaps earlier, depending on where it was first sold.

As for condition, the only modification is the barrels were cut down a couple inches. The Turnbull folks noted this was pretty common. By the way, if you are ever in Bloomfield, NY, stop by Turnbull's. Not only did they give me a full run down on the gun, they provided a tour through the whole operation. My brother and I were there for about an hour and a half. The gun has a couple of dings in the barrel and needs all the metal refinished. But overall it is in nice shape. It's totally tight fitting. It does have ejectors and they function perfectly. What little rust there is on it is more of a browning in texture. All in all, a great freebie. My brother-in-law naturally had dibs on the gun, since it was his father's. But he didn't want it, preferring instead some nice rifles for deer hunting.

So, now all I have to do is take this "free" gun and start getting restoration work done. Turnbull quoted the barrel refinishing, which is my first desire, at $550 with another 50 to 100 for getting the dings out. Seeing the work on the guns in their shop, I'm sure it would come out fantastic.

[Merv Boyd]

Hi Jerry,
Not related to this tread but I loved the pictures of the forend!!!!!

I really appreciate fine craftmanship. Keep up the good work.

[Jerry Andrews]

Thanks for those kind words Mervyn! Jerry

[Jack Cronkhite]

Jent: I'm still learning. Can you explain regulating barrels? What is screwed up when barrels are cut? Is there a length that can be cut with no effect or is even a short length removed problematic? If a barrel set has been cut, can it be re-regulated and what would be involved?
Thanks
Jack

[Jack Cronkhite]

Jent multi-tasking at the moment pgca and on phone with mom & daughter. should really say I'm listening while the ladies talk. could take a while if more than another half hour, i won't interrupt your sleep and call tomorrow at a time that works for you
jack

[Francis Morin]

Welcome to the PGCA Forum Vincent- if you care to join the PGCA, IMO- it will be the best $40 you'll spend this year- the quarterly Parker Pages is well worth that- and as a paid member you can access the swap and also for sale sections of the Forum.

I have read all the posts- all good answers- I can't speak for cut down barrels, as I have never owned any double so altered (at least YET) but a re-assembled Parker 12 bore, whether ejector or extractor gun, is not all that rare.

If we were talking about a very high grade Parker with such "swapped out components", of course that factor would affect the collector value- but on the "meat and potatoes" Parkers- the 12 gauges mainly, VH(E) up through possible DH(E) that you want for either SC or field bird hunting, there is no problem with a mis-matched gun if it functions and fits you, again, IMO.

Mr. Turnbull was a guest at the Vintagers this past Sept (according to the fine write-up in Parker Pages) and he gave seminars on the proper way to field strip a Parker for cleaning, etc. He and the DelGrego family are certainly fine folks to entrust your Parker(s) to, whether a Trojan grade or an AAHE-and all points in between.

I can't speak on barrel regulation, none of my side-by-sides in my "working battery" have ever had choke or chamber re-work- BUT I am mainly a pass shooter, and like my hero the late T. Nash Buckingham, I use 12 gauges 99% of the time- and loner barrels and tighter chokes- works for me, may not for you. I like to see a bird crumple in the air, feathers hanging in the wind-before it drops dead as a graveyard headstone--I get that effect (and save my Lab a lot of cripple chasing I hope) with a snugger choked 12 bore-

I did find that for SC (and fine for quail and grouse I'd guess) 12 LC Smith Ideal with 26" barrels and choked Imp. Cyl. and Mod. (it came with the yellow factory tag matching the serial number- chokes were specified and it was made in 1945--gives me an edge (and I need all of them I can beg, borrow or steal) on sporting clays in the side-by-side events- BUT I am way far more serious about real birds (crows and barn pigeons) than I could ever get about clays- something about "teaching an old dog new tricks" I'd wager-

Anyway, Happy Holidays and please treat yourself to a annual membership in the PGCA- you won't regret it--:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

I don't agree with my friend, Jent. Every cut off Parker I have owned, and I have owned a few, shot just fine. A cylinder bored gun is a short range gun anyway and an inch or two off of center is no big deal. The only way to determine whether a cut off gun shoots to point of aim is to shoot it, not to make generalizations.

[Dean Romig]

I will add that the POI will be more affected as more length is cut off. For instance, if the barrels were originally 30" and only one or two inches are cut off the POI will be less affected but if four inches or more are cut off then the gun will most probably shoot high - again, determined by how much is cutt off.

[Vincent Pascucci]

All,

Thanks for the running commentary. On the issue of the barrels no longer being regulated due to shortening, I'm not certain what that means. I'll have to look it up. As noted though, they were cut down about 2 inches. The Turnbull guy I spoke with noted that they were 27 7/8th inches, which just shouldn't be - 30 or 28 I think is what he commented would be expected. Also, he felt there was a little too much separation between them at the muzzle. That said, he told me it was a common mod for trap shooting. In any event, it doesn't really matter as I didn't intend to shoot it. For years I've been told don't shoot damascus with modern loads, though as I said in an earlier post, my great-grandfather shot a hammered twist steel double well into the 1950's. Of course, he also used to cut the livers our of woodchucks right after shooting them and eat some. A tougher bunch back then I guess.

Anyway, my real desire is to just get it looking good. I'd mostly want to just have the barrels redone to bring out the pattern I see on so many restored guns. And since I have no money into it, I figure I can splurge a little.

I think I will go ahead and become an official member. Lot's of good material bouncing around here. Well worth my investment so far - gun, $0; membership, $40; socializing, priceless.

[Dave Suponski]

Welcome Vincent...Glad to have you aboard..:)

[Francis Morin]

Welcome Vincent...Glad to have you aboard..:) I'll second that--IMO the best $40 you'll ever spend on anything shotgun related-One great thing about new members in the PGCA- there is most always a new question or quest for info raised, and that's what has spurred the growth in membership in the PGCA--:bigbye:

[John Mazza]

Regarding barrel regulation being affected by the shortening of the barrels: If that's true, then I guess we are assuming that each barrel is not reasonably straight, but instead, is (minutely) bent in all different directions (but looks straight at a casual glance) ?

Now, every manufactured product has a tolerance, and "straightness" of a barrel has an angular tolerance too. But....... If each tube is reasonably straight, it's centerline will theoretically define point of impact.

OK - now, if one regulates two such tubes together to form a side-by-side barrel assembly, they are "adjusting" the alignment of each tubes centerline to be reasonably coincident at a given distance (let's just say, 50 yards).

Now - these barrel centerlines - being "LINES" - are straight. That's a definition of a line. Additionally, these two centerlines do not change from their original orientation after one, two , or three inches of barrel assembly is cut off. (ie: the two barrels are soldered together for their entire length).

So, by shortening the tubes, we have not "moved" one barrel relative to the other, and we have not changed the same straight "centerlines" of each barrel. So, how then can the point of impact be so drastically changed ?

Additionally, we're talking about shotguns, not rifles. If one was talking about rifles - they are so exacting/accurate that a minute change in barrel "straightness" or barrel vibration/harmonics could affect the apparent point of impact (when the arm is capable of a 1/2" group at 100 yards). But when you're throwing a swarm of pellets in a pattern that can be reasonably measured in feet vs. minute of angle - how much differently can 2" shorter barrels possibly be aligned ?


[BTW: since the thinner walled muzzles of each barrels "touch" (at the muzzle end) - and the breech end of the barrels (which have much thicker walls) also touch, this means that the barrel centerlines are not parallel, and the paths of the shot charges must cross each other (when viewed from above the gun) not too far from the muzzle. Double rifles (when viewed from the muzzle) have the centerlines of each bore separated by a great distance in order to keep them reasonably parallel. Since shotgun bores do not appear to have the parallel centerline, that level of exactness must not be needed.]


I'm playing devil's advocate - I'm not saying that it's a simple task to regulate shotguns. In fact, I still have a beautiful 20 ga. Weatherby O/U that is such a POORLY REGULATED P.O.S. that it shoots like two completely different guns - mounted on one stock. The fine boys at Weatherby said it shot to their specs & did nothing to solve my problem. As a result, I can NEVER recommend that maker, and will never by one of their products again.

Of course, who needs to - with all those amazing old Parkers out there !!!!!


{Damn - my fingers are tired from all that typing !!!!}

[Dean Romig]

John, regarding my statement that a gun with shortened barrels having a tendency to shoot high; The line of the center of the bore is, as you say, a straight line that cannot be altered.... but the shooter's line of sight (also a straight line which cannot be altered) is aligned in direct relation to the center line of the bores and the aid in this alignment is the plane of the top rib with a bead set upon it as a further aid in aligning the shooter's line of vision relative to the center line of the bores. When the barrels are shortened the rib, of course is shortened also, altering the aid to alignment of the two straight lines that the shooter is dependant upon. Now as the shooter maintains his straight line of vision along the shorter rib and the bead the angle of the center line of the bores has been altered upward a bit at the end of the barrels. There is no helping this if the shooter is to shoot as he has always done, i.e. using the rib and bead as his only aid in aligning the center line of the bores with his intended target. This will be more pronounced in smaller gauge guns on larger frames, e.g. a 28 ga. on a 0-frame or a 16 ga. on a 2-frame or a 12 ga. gun on a 3-frame with cut barrels.

[Dean Romig]

[BTW: since the thinner walled muzzles of each barrels "touch" (at the muzzle end) - and the breech end of the barrels (which have much thicker walls) also touch, this means that the barrel centerlines are not parallel, and the paths of the shot charges must cross each other (when viewed from above the gun) not too far from the muzzle. Double rifles (when viewed from the muzzle) have the centerlines of each bore separated by a great distance in order to keep them reasonably parallel. Since shotgun bores do not appear to have the parallel centerline, that level of exactness must not be needed.]


True, to an extent... however, keep in mind that when the barrels are joined at the breech the sides of the breech end are filed flat and brazed together with a combined wall thichness equal only to the chamber wall thickness of a single barrel which helps greatly in aligning the two bore center lines and aids greatly in regulating the barrels.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Caution to the reader. The following may be true/false or none of the above. Do I need to understand aeronautics to fly in an airliner? Do I need to understand automotive mechanics to drive a car?? Do I need to understand barrel regulation to shoot a gun?? Maybe not but now I want to, even as the midnight hour is swiftly approaching.

After asking questions and getting answers and thinking about it all, I'm less confused (or more) and may or may not have it straight.

SXS barrels have a straight bore
SXS barrels Outside Diameter is greater at the breech and narrower at the muzzle but the bore Inside Diameter is consistent so... the wall thickness is greater at the breech and less at the muzzle and the least midway along the barrel length.
That we can see with this diagram posted a few times on the forums.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/365573248.jpg

From this diagram the breech OD is 1.205 and the muzzle OD is 0.825. OD midway is 0.799 The variance from breech to muzzle is 0.38 but midway the variance is greater, being 0.406
To have the two barrels become a single unit, Dean just explained that the breech end is filed to half its thickness and the two brazed together. The filing would have to start at half thickness and continue at an angle toward the muzzle that allows the two muzzles to just touch. That angle changes according to the length of the barrels. Now there is a lot of space between the two barrels from the brazed join at the breech and the touching barrels at the muzzle. This space is filled at intervals with soldered shims - more shims midway than at either the breech or muzzle end. Shimming has an effect on regulation as does the angle of breech wall filing, as I understand it. The gun can be fired without the rib being laid and adjustments can be made in the shimming to achieve the desired regulation. I think :)

As I understand it, the purpose of regulating the barrels is to have the payload from either barrel hit the same point of impact at a specified range. A waterfowler may be regulated for 40 or 50 yards and an upland gun may be regulated for 20 or 30 yards. It could be regulated to a customer's specification.

Beyond the point of regulation, the shot strings will cross each other. Before that point, the two shot strings will be converging and beyond that point, the two shot strings will be diverging.

Given that the diameter of an effective pattern is approx 30 inches, a bird in the center of the point of regulation is quite dead. Moving the bird further down range and not moving the barrels, the bird will be closer to the edge of the pattern until it is eventually not in the pattern. Same effect moving the bird closer (but of course the pattern diameter is less and less so if you connect you have a dead bird but nothing left to eat :eek: ).

I'm still unsure how shortening the barrels, with the shims not having been touched, changes the regulation. I can see that the choke may be changed, thus opening the pattern earlier and reducing effective range. For example, a heavy waterfowler is now a short range upland gun. This part remains unclear to me.

I may or may not see Dean's point regarding shortened barrel causing a shooter to hit high. Now if one were used to a 32" gun (uncut) would this shooter hit high with a 28" gun (uncut) ???

I know when I close my eyes and pull the trigger, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, sometimes there's a dead rooster sometimes there's not. I guess I need to concentrate on seeing just the bead and bird, but when I try that, the bird inevitably carries on untouched. But I am glad the Parker Bros got it all figured out for me, even if I don't quite understand it all yet.

Cheers,
Jack

Here are some images of a barrel set with ribs removed showing the soldered shims. Sent my way from Jent to help explain some of this.

[David Holes]

I agree with Bill. Shoot the gun and check point of impact. Only a pattern board will tell if there is any concern. I have shot both and the open chokes help cover up the loss of regulation. I tend to pattern all my sxs's, after having a 20 that crossed over past 20 yards and it was factory length and tight choked. Didn't make much of a dove gun.

[Dean Romig]

I may or may not see Dean's point regarding shortened barrel causing a shooter to hit high. Now if one were used to a 32" gun (uncut) would this shooter hit high with a 28" gun (uncut) ???


No Jack because we're talking "cut barrels" not barrels that were manufactures to a particular length. A gun has its barrels regulated not only in relation to each other but also in relation to the placement of the rib and bead on the barrels. You will note that on many live bird or trap Parkers and other live bird or trap SXS shotguns of the day the top rib was somewhat narrower at the muzzles than at the breech end.... a finely tapered rib in other words, allowing the rib to lay lower between the muzzles facilitating the angle of the center line of the bore somewhat upward in relation to the line of vision of the shooter. This allowed the gun to shoot high to a rising bird.
This placement of the rib wasn't necessarily on every gun of this description but was on many of them. Even later the placement and angle of the ventilated rib allowed for the same angle.

[Jack Cronkhite]

The part I like best is "shoot 'em" :)

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Vincent, There were guns that left the factory that were not exactly on the inch!

[John Mazza]

Good information, guys !

It sure would have been fascinating to have watched the workers at Parker assemble one of these fine guns !

[Francis Morin]

I have stayed away from shortened barrels, re-choked and re-chambered guns- But I have an 'optical illusion perhaps' with these "Given factors for me- (1) I shoot 12 gauge shotguns 95% of the time (2) at age 70 I still have 20-20 vision with perfect depth perception (3) I am right handed and have a right dominant eye- no cast on or off (4) Any shotgun stocked about like a factory original field grade Model 12 from 1936 to 1960 will fit me well (5) I always shoot from the low gun position- with the butt tucked up under my right armpit- learned a lot from the H&H Ken Davies Videos-

That being said- I have two LC Smiths with different barrel lengths and ribs- a 1945 Ideal FWE 12 with 26" barrels and the raised solid rib they brought out in about 1939- no middle bead sight- and that raised rib makes the barrels seem (to my vision anyway) more like a 28" barreled 12 (my 3E and my GHE)-- But the flip side-my favorite Tower bird, goose and turkey 12 (since I sold the heavy HE Super-Duper Fox anyway) is a 2E 12 Smith rebarreled with 32" Nitro Steel barrels, factory ventilated rib with NO middle bead sight- and not a Longrange- it has 3" chambers and the steel Y lower rib reinforcement- and that cannon with the ventilated rib makes (again, just to my vision) the barrels seem shorter- much like the 30" Crown Steel barrels on my 12 gauge 2E--

I don't notice that illusion with my M12's however- 2 12 ga. M12's I own- a field 30" mfg. 1937 (Dad's gun) with a factory solid rib Full choke- and a 1948 Pigeon Grade trap with the old style milled rib- 30" Imp. Mod. choke- I focus on the bird anyways, whether clay or feathers-

You have to be very careful- about 6 years ago at an area gun show, I saw a nice 4E NID 20 bore with straight grip, single trigger, early NID with the visible cocking indicators- priced at about $2250- I asked the dealer, a man whom I knew slightly, for OK to examine it- he said "go ahead' and handed it to be-as I reached for my 10' Stanley tape rule, he "jumped the gun" and said- Those are 28" barrels, no need to measure- but I did- three times and each time I read 26 & 3/4"- He knew the "jig was up" and I removed the forearm and read the barrel choke numerical code- No 4 in each barrel- so- my guess-it was originally a 28" barreled gun Full choke in each tube- and some "hacksaw Jack" wanted to open the patterns- Wrong move- I would NOT have bought that Ithaca for any price-you can never re-sell it to anyone that knows what to look for-:bigbye::bigbye:

[Leighton Stallones]

A friend of mine here in Texas told me several years ago about his Parker
GH that he hunted Pheasants with in Kansas when he lived in Missouri.
However ,he said someone had put replacement stocks on it and they did not fit him well,but he was ok with them. A few months ago, I saw him at a shoot in New Braunfels and he told me an amazing story.
He was visiting relatives in Kansas City and his nephew drug him down to the Cabelas store. He noticed a big box of shotgun stocks and found a buttstock
and foreend that looked like they would fit his Parker and the serial numbers looked close. He said that he called his wife at home and asked her to look at the serial numbers on his Parker to see how close they were.
They were the same serial numbers as his gun and he bought them of course and left in a daze.
Evidently, Bishop, Fajen or another Missouri stocker had done the work on his gun and sold the excess old stocks to Cabelas.
True story.:bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

We should all be so lucky. The chances of that happening are slim indeed.

[Bruce Day]

Bishops but mostly Fajens made standard V grade configuration and with a deep cut angled thumb groove stocks for the trade. They also made beavertail fore ends. They were machine inletted but required hand fitting, checkering and finishing and addition of a recoil pad. They went to Simmons in Olathe Kansas, around the country and into Ilion, NY. When Fajens closed, Fred Wenig Gunstocks in Lincoln, MO bought the large remainder stock and used them as needed. When Fred retired, the take off inventory was sold and the Fajen remainder new stocks were sold. A noted PGCA member bought the remainder stock and disposed of much of that with the last couple years at cost to members who needed utilitarian stocks and fore end wood. I didn't know what happened to the take off stocks, Cabelas in Kansas City could have ended up with the Simmons take offs or the Fajen/Wenig take offs.

Fred Wenig had been the superintendent for Fajen, later after Fred left to establish his own shop, Donnie Gemmes became the superintendent. Fred retired from his Wenig Gunstocks, it is now employee owned, and Donnie went on to create Show Me Gunstocks. Marti Fajen went on to become the US importer for CZ Guns , a woman owned gun businesses, then several years ago, Marti sold out. Wenig Gunstocks and Show Me Gunstocks still make replacement stocks for Parkers.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks for that information Bruce.

[Bruce Day]

Dean, as further trivia and perhaps not of interest to most, is that Fajen/Bishop/ bought and Wenig /Gemmes still buy their Juglas nigra blanks from St Joe Walnut in St Joseph MO, which also sold local northern Missouri and Iowa walnut blanks to Parker Bros. Just as in the Meridan days, there are some wonderful pieces of air dried highly figured stump walnut that come from this region.

I believe it likely that many of if not most of the utilitarian V grade type stocks we see as replacements came as rough cut, inletted stocks from Fajen/Bishops. They did very well during the 50's and 60's with sporter stocks for all the war surplus 1903 Springfields being sold....remember the NRA ads for surplus 03's, what were they $20? Bill would know. There were also 30 Cal Carbine stocks when they were surplused out. My dad bought a Spanish American War era Krag with a Bishop stock and hunted deer when we lived in SoDak.


They made a lot of replacement stocks for M. 12's and those beavertail forends to replace the corn cob forends. The Parker replacement stocks I've seen had the deep angled thumb grooves like the replacement M 12 stocks. While its easy to tell that these are not original Parker stocks, they were certainly utilitarian and not costly , and I think they might have preserved many Parkers for use today that might have been discarded and lost because of broken stocks, high drop, or other features that owners found undesireable.

[Vincent Pascucci]

Guys, I never thought I'd start so much conversation. Just proof in the comments from some of you earlier about how much fun I'll have as a member (just lazy so far about signing up).

On the topic of regulation, one thing I noted was comments that the barrels should be set for the shot to cross streams at say 50 yards. if that's the case, then given that the centerlines on the muzzles of the 12 gage are about 1.25 inch (I admit that's eyeball accuracy but, as my father always says, it's close enough for the girls we go with) and if my math is right, then for the centerlines to meet at 50 yards, they'd only be canted in 0.025 deg towards each other. Seems hard to believe such accuracy in manufacture could have been attained in pre CNC machined days. And, I'm not sure how much it would have helped. Given that at 50 yards the pattern is many inches, if my two streams were exactly parallel, they'd still have probably 90% or better overlap.

Looking at the issue of the bead height above the barrel and how moving it back would affect elevation, it's tough to say. One would have to know what the original intent of the the set up was - e.g. was the bead set so that a line from the top to the back of the rib would precisely parallel the bore centerline, or was it slightly below so that sighting would place the bore extended center line above the aim point to compensate for drop at some point. I suspect the latter since assuming muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, drop would be about 5 or 6 inches at 50 yards.

Again, back to some trig, setting up the aim line to be 6 inches below the bore centerline at 50 yards requires about 0.2 deg difference between the two. That 0.2 deg difference would mean the top of the bead would have to be about 0.105 inch lower than the rear sighting point of the rib. Moving in 2 inches closer means it would have to be 0.098 inches lower than the rear sight point instead, or about 0.007" difference. Doesn't sound like much, but it is about a 7% change which, if the original sighting was to compensate for 6 inches of drop, this would change the point of impact by around 0.5". For the Sunday trap shooter or farmer out hunting, probably no big deal. But for the top end competitors, maybe one fewer hits out of 400. That could be important.

All that said, I think it takes means two things. First, as someone else said, take it out and shoot it to see if it's on target or not (though as I noted, I don't intended shooting the gun). Second it means after reading this some of you will be advising me to reconsider joining.