Hammer gun load advice

[Rick Rappe]

New forum member here. After decades away from shotgunning experiences including hobby restorations, I recently bought a basket case top lever 12 on-line with the intent to have a fun shooter for occasional Skeet or a grouse hunt...maybe even as a Cowboy shooter. Fingers crossed the seller's description of modest pitting but shootable was accurate, I had some old 10 bore wads that I sanded down to 12 ga. and some Pyrodex RS for my BP rifle. I cut off a few AA hulls at the crimp, got a 3dr. 1 oz load to fit, and when the gun arrived, within an hour I was at the range. She went bang with no issues and the cyl. bores were in evidence with huge 10yd. patterns. So I ordered proper wads and began the restoration.

First surprise is chamber length. Visually minimal forcing cones, the chambers are smooth out to 2 3/4", but when using the depth gauge, the forcing cones are really like another 1/4" of chamber, just less polished, to a really minimal step up into the bore of less than the thickness of the plastic hull's wall thickness. Didn't give it much thought, so modified my load to fit a normal 2 3/4" hull and full crimped 1/2 dozen for another test. Not finished, but shootable, I drove to a private club and as a favor, they let me fire those 6 at station one Skeet. Hit 5 of 6 even dealing with a lot of drop-at-heel.

Got the gun looking right 'purty", and with a combo of hand powder dumping and my dusted off MEC loader, I loaded up several boxes (2 3/4dr. RS, 3/8ths wads, 1 oz. in a shot cup cut from a WW wad), drove back to that skeet range only to find the closed Covid-19 sign. Aargh! New gun, no place to shoot.

Basically wanting to learn more about the gun, I joined this forum 3 days ago. But the data here is overwhelming. Not only have I found no real ID info (top lever SN 48xxx) age? grade?; but information overload as I tried to follow the threads on safe low pressure loads. Surprises include constant references to factory brands with the posters assuming the reader knows of them, and how common it appears that the conventional wisdom of no damascus ever even with black is NOT on Parker guy's don't do it radar.

My gun appears to have been honed to "improve" the pitting, and reading the admonitions about wall thicknesses, but without plain info on details, I'm now nervous my gun might not be safe enough to shoot with confidence.

I assume my load is very low pressure (???), way less than the 8000 PSI smokeless threshold often cited. But...

My bores measure .734...trouble is without knowing what they might have been before, that doesn't define how much has been honed away.

And at the chamber end, lengthening the chamber forward AND honing the bore have removed most of the forcing cone. But I don't have an unaltered gun to stare down as a visual comparison.

The barrels ring like a tuning fork when struck. But otherwise, how do I know my gun is ok other than a long string and a proof load risk?

Advice? Help?

Thanks,

RickR

[Dean Romig]

Hello Rick -

First, please tell us what the whole serial number is and we can look it up in the Parker Gun Identification and Serialization book (if it is listed) and we can tell you some basics on how it left the factory.
A PGCA Research letter should complete the story of originality. But first and foremost, get the wall thickness measured at strategic points along the length, and circumferentially at those points as well, by a knowledgable and competent double gun expert.

Yes, a lot of us shoot modern powders in our composite barreled Parkers but we either buy low pressure ammo specifically made for these guns or we load our own to published low pressure loads.

Pictures of your gun would aid in the discussion.





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[Rick Rappe]

Thank you Dean. Here's a "before picture" off the site where I bought it. She's SN 48237. As you can see, my description of "basket case" is apt. The other shots including the broken stock would add to that descriptor....but

For the sake of brevity, what I wrote makes me sound less experienced or capable while also avoiding mention that spending just about what a beat up Stevens 311 goes for was a budget stretch. The impression of just another opinionated "expert" was a label I wanted to avoid too. Nope, no expert, just an experienced hobbiest with an extensive past in doubles. Besides more rehabilitation/restorations I can recall; I have owned and used damascus (evidently "composite" is the newer term) in 1/2 dozen or so vintage classics, the last being a 10 bore lifter that I shot quail, chukars, pheasants and even sporting clays with it. But that was decades ago.

Back then, it was radical to shoot those old guns. It just wasn't done by anyone wanting to keep all his barrel hand fingers and eyes. Those of us who were young enough to believe we were bullet proof figured if the bores were passable and the gun was still on it's face, and the barrels rang, stuff an equal amount 2F and shot by volume into a cut off hull plus some way to hold the shot in, and fire away without worry. Always worked for me, but I also admit I always opted for 12 or 16 loads no more than an ounce but had to go heavier just to get a 10 load that worked well.

With that background, I felt qualified to judge this gun, now looking way better, as a shooter. So perhaps there was a touch of paranoia in my post, as what I was reading had the general thread of how to know if a "composite" gun will be ok with lower pressure smokeless? There wasn't much on "if ok with black substitutes".

I have outlived anyone I might have turned to in times past. Given the above and that I have no one with knowledge to show the gun to or $$ for an opinion, is there a way I can get confident again?

[Rick Rappe]

Oops. Forgot to add some spec's. Barrels are 26". #1 frame. 7.4 lbs.

[edgarspencer]

It's probably unlikely too much was honed in the area you are measuring .734", because standard 12 bore is .729", and my experience is that most Parker hammer guns I have owned, TL or lifter, were well over .729" and often upwards of .745"

[Harry Collins]

Rick,

The "Book" indicates your Parker left the factory as an 1886 Grade O with Plain Twist 30" barrels and capped pistol grip. I'm not being flippant by the following: I have never had my barrels measured for wall thickness. My thought process has been if there is pitting visible it is unlikely the barrels have been messed with and I try not to over think it. Many of my Parkers have bore in the .734 range as well. I have an 1881 Twist Steel Parker with light pitting and .751 bores I shoot all the time with AA hulls, 1oz, Win 209, 19.5 WST, WAA12SL @ 1180 and 7,400 psi. That is the same as AA Xtra-Lite target load. In fact I will shoot most anything off the shelf that is 1oz and under 1200 fps. Most shooters here are more clever and affluent than I and shoot http://www.rstshells.com These shells have appropriate velocities and pressures for old stocks, Damascus and Twist barrels. I'm 72 and like you I had been warned of the dangers of Damascus all my life. It was with trepidation I started shooting them with Federal paper hulls and IMR 7625. A load Ross Seyfried had published in Guns and Ammo sometime in the 1980's. Good luck and have fun.

Kindest,
Harry

[Eric Eis]

Rick, post what part of Wisc. you live in and someone may chime in that can help you measure your wall thickness. Also there is a large SxS shoot in Medford WI second week in July (hopefully) that you should attend and Jon Hosford will be there and he will measure your barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

From your description of the bores, it would seem that the chambers have been lengthened to 2 3/4", but the bores have probably not been honed. Probably no big deal to shoot it since the forcing cones don't seem to have been bored out.

[Rick Rappe]

You've relieved my paranoia since my loads are probably generating 1/2 the pressure of the smokeless ones being used.

I'd heard there was a double gun gathering here in Wisconsin during the Summer. Where do I get the specifics?

Heck yes, I would LOVE to meet someone into shooting that could fill me in. I'm just 10 miles into Wisconsin and off I-94 East of MPLS/St. Paul in a small village (Roberts). Moved here 4 years ago and then wife became ill. As primary caretaker I've been forced into stay home social distancing for all that time. Prevented me from making any new shooting friends, or even finding a place to hunt such that I can get home quickly if she needs me.

Aside, I've always thought that Cowboy Action shooting was sort of silly since I hunted with lever guns, doubles and carried a +P+ loaded .44 spcl Colt as my deer revolver. Finding out there is a club nearby and meeting members who encouraged me to participate (aha! shooters to get to know), I have been rethinking that. This Parker (I also have a sixgun and a Winchester in .45 Colt) got me re-thinking my opinion just so I can have something to get away to.

RE the bores, I have only an inside caliper and micrometer to measure them, so I can only get in 2 inches or so at the muzzles to arrive at the .734 bore size. No way for me to know for sure if that dimension remains constant along the rest of the barrels. There was a small dent in one muzzle that I may have caused, and since I didn't have one of those cylinder shaped choke gauges, I ordered one thinking I could use the .729 cyl. designation to insert and tap out the dent. So when the gauge arrived, and it fell all the way through the barrels and out the breech...added to my honed too thin concern.

Here are a couple of "after rehab" photos. Not too bad having been out of practice for 30 years.

Rick

[charlie cleveland]

nice gun..i have been shooting damascus and stub twist andwire twist and what ever for many years with smokeless powder...i ve been shooting my dads e grade lefever since i was 15 years old with smokeless loads that were 4 3/4 and 1 5/8 ounce loads 2 7 /8 inch long... i am now 72 years old...in fact yesterday and today i am hunting with a 8 ga davenport single barrel that has wire twist barrels and i shoot smokeless loads thru it...but today i am hunting with black powder loads not for safety but to try and get a turkey with them...charlie

[Bruce Day]

Here is what Parker recommended during the hammer gun times. The powder is expressed in black drams but a person can translate to dram equivalents such as on present cartridge boxes.

[Bruce Day]

I hunt with a Parker hammer gun from 1881 and these are what I use but I will go to size 6 shot for pheasant. Wild birds out here.

The cleaning rod is a C M Powers, who was a Parker shooter.

[Bruce Day]

This is a Quality G 12/28 and is fully original except that I personally applied a top coat of Timberluxe to the stock to correct a few light scratches and dullness.
The barrel and chamber dimensions are shown. The choke length is the 4 1/2, the original chambers are 2 7/8.

We were at Pheasant Fest in MSP in February and displayed about 30 Parkers . That was a short drive from you .

Your gun is several years newer than mine. I’m sure you know that smokeless powder was in widespread use by the late 1890’s and even required in many competition shoots. As Parker made Damascus barreled guns until 1927 , many have never seen black powder . Black powder cartridges were the cheap choice, even the base grade Parkers cost three times what many other guns cost and I suspect that many owners did not shoot the cheap shells when offered a choice.

[Rick Rappe]

Interesting info Bruce and the other "shoot away" posters. Bruce raised my confidence even higher seeing that box of federal target loads. Local Walmart has some of those in 16 ga. that are cheaper to buy than I can reload. (Unlike other stores where 16 shells cost way more than any 12 or 20 similars.)

That last post. 2 7/8 chambers? If so, then mine may NOT have been lengthened and I was concerned over nothing.

I was skeptical at first of those Parker recommended loads before I interpreted what I can see of the copy above the chart ( 4drams and 1 1/8oz. ?), they were apparently referring to some very coarse powder, AND one would have trouble getting that much powder, shot and wadding into a shell that wasn't closer to 2 3/4 anyway.

I appreciate all the responses

Rick

[Bruce Day]

I see no indication from your measurements or photo that would indicate to me that your barrels have been altered. Lightweight hammer Parkers are uncommon, most are 30”, No. 2 frame and about 7 1/2 to 8 lbs. Yours is most likely on a 1 frame.

You have a Quality T plain twist barreled gun, 1882 price was $55 retail.

Following are a few 1882 catalog pages that you might find of interest.

I hunt with my Damascus barreled Parkers , Lefevers and Colt a lot. The G hammer is a fine Minnesota grouse gun. You may be interested to know that Purdey’s can still provide a new Damascus barreled gun . Winchester made some Mod 97’s with Damascus barrels. They were the top end Black Diamond grade.

There are differences in the various types of composite steel barrels including various twists , laminated and Damascus, each different and some quite spectacular.

[Bruce Day]

And finally , something that has started many on the road to ruin .

[Dean Romig]

Right Bruce. One that comes to mind is our turnip farmer friend’s Grade-2 hammer gun with the American Flag bunting barrels comes to mind - a rare one among Parkers, possibly unique. It is in amazingly high condition... I have a couple of pictures of it around here someplace...

Oh yeah! A grade 4 hammer gun with Bernard Steel barrels, Nice! Mine is on the 1-frame.



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[Mike Koneski]

Rick, welcome to Parker Universe!! I too shoot a lot with Damascus guns. I shoot factory shells and reloads. If I shoot factory shells I may use some RST and keep the empties to reload. I mainly shoot Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics 1 oz shells in 12g, 7/8 oz in 16g and 3/4 oz in 20g. Biggest issue with most of these vintage guns is not necessarily "metal" problems such as ruining your barrels, etc, but these old stocks have a tendency to crack/split/break. Since you are handy and enjoy working on the stocks, best thing you can do in use a glass bedding compound (such as Acraglass) and reinforce the head. Clean/degrease it then do some bedding, even do some work with a dremel and threaded rods (inside the head) to help hold the head together.

[Rick Rappe]

Thanks Mike. Yes, Accraglas has been a staple for me for years. I've written 3 books on vintage archery bows and my current hobby business of bow restorations includes using glass bedding for fiberglass limb repairs such that i buy the bulk version from Brownell's. There's even some on the Parker part of which is under the checkering I replaced. Yes, I'm in sync with you over the fragility of old oil soaked wood standing up to recoil. One of my fix-ups includes knocking back the oil with acetone or even with wood bleach and sealing the stock innards with s-glue or even accraglass to harden and protect.

As I was finishing up the Parker a few weeks ago and giving thought to taking up Cowboy action shooting, I watched some videos of matches. What I saw was speed reloading amounting to near abuse while slamming the guns open and closed then dropping them to pick up revolver or rifle. Unsure I want to subject my Parker to that, there was a total basket case NR Davis & Sons that had been sitting on the rack at a local (and still open) gunshop for as long as I've been going there. Cobwebs in the barrels and a stock that looked like someone attached a 2X6 to the receiver (and it broke at the fences so badly that there was more wood missing than still present). I gave them $100 and brought her home.

I actually had to glue a veneer of Zebrawood to both stock sides at the receiver and re-shape. But when back onto the gun, it originally must have been receiver proud because my added width at the receiver wasn't enough and there was originally very narrow receiver to stock contact. So I glassed her all around the tang and the trigger group and essentially rebuilt the stock width at the receiver with all Accraglas. Ugly but solid, I'm giving thought to hiding the buildup by adding checkering to the fences like is on many better grade doubles.

Once I got that beater looking good again, and cleaned out the barrels, I found the bores to be perfect and a pattern test of 30" barrels revealed full and fuller excellent patterns. Rather than cut the barrels, I bought some cowhide and built a leather monte-carlo cheekpiece and intend to try her as a trap gun. The old Ducker weighs almost 8.5 lbs. so a trap gun is probably a better future for the gun than as a sawed off coach gun. No conclusions until the ranges re-open, but I'm still seeking another fixer-upper ok to chop and serve as a Cowboy shooter, or if that competition doesn't "take" for me; a gun to stand behind the door and guard the toilet paper (grin).

Rick

[todd allen]

Three books on vintage archery.
Rick, one of the things that kinda jumped out at me on your original post is how well written it was. And then the follow up.
Just a thought, but if you joined the association, and continue your Parker pursuits, down the road you might want to write up your experience(s) and submit it/them to our magazine, The Parker Pages.

[Rick Rappe]

That was an especially nice compliment. Thanks Todd. I have begun to checker that Davis gun to camo the glass buildups, and waiting for that stimulus $$. Rather than waste the windfall paying bills or some such, I may invest it in a better gun.

Were I to take you up on joining the Parker association, would I get drummed out by admitting it's my Fox guns I miss the most and like them better than a #2 frame Parker?

Mea Maxima Culpa (thought I'd throw in some uppity-culture phrase)

Rick

[todd allen]

We've got some Fox guys here. LC Smith and Lefever owners too. We are a big tent.
Of course the gloves come off in the Parker vs Fox, or LC guys shoot. (so I've heard)
; - )

[Brian Dudley]

Take this piece of advice as purely constructive when I beg of you to please study up on Parker checkering patterns before you decide to checker another Parker.

[edgarspencer]

Were I to take you up on joining the Parker association,

Really? For the cost of three boxes of RST Lights, you're sitting on a fence post? And, here I thought I was tight.

[Rick Rappe]

Hi edgar. There is a difference between being tight and being broke. And this AM odds were high I'd never return to this site again. The specifics of my circumstance are private and cannot end, so that means that much of my desire to return to the shotgun sports is wishful thinking including comments about searching for a better gun...but one is ever hopeful. So I made some comments on other threads to divert me from my reality a little by giving me a reason to log on. (BTW you never did answer my PM about your Colt bow)

Mr. Dudley, I understand your underlying point and agree generally, but circumstance and the specifics of this gun forced my alteration. (Hiding broken stock repairs and a forend gouge underneath the pattern)

Yes, big difference between the originality concern of the collector and someone buying a Parker to shoot simply because they are good guns.

But understanding when and to whom originality is paramount can also lead to excess. Once upon a long time ago I "restored" bamboo fly rods as a hobby business. I was taken to task by the guy who "wrote the book" on bamboo rod collecting because I had completed a rod using a different brand (but identical style tip guide) as the rod originally used since the company making those tip guides went out of business 100 years ago.

"Unless the rod is ALL original down to the brand of silk used to re-wrap the guides it isn't original at all" was his mantra. We argued that keeping to that degree of original was impossible and illogical, but we never did agree. Even so, if you read anything I've ever written or speak to someone who's rod, bow or gun I worked on, you'll pick up on that I say "rehabilitate" rather than restore and/or "as originalish as practical".

Hope you agree the bamboo guru was overly "anal" as by that standard, replace one screw, even internally on an otherwise minty Parker and it is no longer an original gun with no more value than a refinished specimen.

[Brian Dudley]

I do not agree.
It is not about being “original” because they are only original once. And not many truly are completely original.
It is about doing the job right and correct to original standards as best as possible.
There are far too many Parkers, and other guns out there that have been “rehabilitated and repaired beyond repair”. It is best to not create more of them.

[Rick Rappe]

I'm going to let this go since my take is we are in agreement and are differing mostly over semantics. You wrote it yourself. Finding any specimen with no alteration of ANYTHING is difficult, ergo few untouched and so honestly original guns still exist. But that whenever possible we ought to try really hard to get to my "as originalish as possible".look when we can. I believe in this one instance my knowingly doing it as I did was necessary. While agreeing I failed to meet your point since I could have made the re-do closer to the original pattern and still cover the repairs, it still wouldn't have looked identical to the standard pattern. Yah, I'll do better next time. Rick

[edgarspencer]

(BTW you never did answer my PM about your Colt bow)



Rick, I am pretty forgetful, so I went back and re-read your PM re: repairing a Colt bow, however, there was no question. What am I missing? I did visit the website, but haven't been up to the attic to find the bow as yet. I will, and when I do, you'll be the first to know.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

My wife's first husband died of cancer in his early 40's He was quite the traditional archer. I have several of his Black widow bows , that I am told are quite collectable. He also made the custom cedar shafts that were in all there advertisements back in the 1980's.

[Rick Rappe]

No biggie Edgar, what typically happens when I get an inquiry "I have this old bow..." leads to details on the specific bow, like value and the cost of "rehabilitation". On average maybe 1 in 5 contacts leads to a transaction tho. Colt branded recurve bows are just fine as shooters. Any premium collectible specimen carries the same originality factor as we just touched on re. shotguns. But my sense is among bow collectors "Colt's Manufacturing Company" labeling alone adds no value up-tick. That said, Colt memorabilia collectors do tend to snatch them up. No, Colt didn't build them. Ben Pearson, Bob Lee at Wing, and maybe Ernie Root who built the Shakespeare brand were the actual makers. No records exist on details. In fact it is rumored that production details among the companies building them were often kept secret under the premise that how many and at what price was none of Uncle Sam's business.

Harold, yes the Black Widow bows are highly thought of. I could make a case they are the Parkers of classic archery gear.

BTW, when teaching how to shoot a stick bow well, I use the similarities between a bow and shotgun in how the focus is on the target and not the sights a rifleman does.

Rick

[Rick Rappe]

To add come closure to this thread, here is a shot of that $100 POS specimen Davis gun I bought since I don't want to subject my hammer gun Parker to that near abuse shotguns get in that Cowboy action game and that ended up too good to whack off into a coach gun.

Following the Accraglas discussions and how I had to rebuild this stock at the receiver with nearly ALL accraglas and was considering checkering the all glass areas to hide an ugly fix, I did it during the Easter Sunday blizzard we had here in Wisconsin. The picture also shows how I used leather to build the stock up to trapgun dimensions as a better use for an 8 lb.+ gun choked full and full.

However, I'm making this post to also mention that accraglas resin finished off my already tired pointing tool. It stopped cutting before I finished and I had to complete the job with a triangular needle file that I had heated and curled the tip into a makeshift checkering tool.

So, if you MUST checker over fiberglass, be aware doing so is deathly hard on checkering tools.

Rick