Reloading vintage paper 10 ga hulls ?

[Milton C Starr]

Ive been looking at some 10 ga paper hulls on a few different sites that are unfired , I was wondering if anyone here as attempted reloading/loading original paper hulls ?

I suppose the main two problems would be the primers would probably need replacing and trying to find if theres even a primer that would work and if the paper is still any good .

[Daniel Carter]

I have had success replacing the old primers by first using a spent 209 and forcing it in then out and then seating a new 209. Have done this with 28 paper and 16 paper and plastic. Again first seat a SPENT 209 and then the live one

[Milton C Starr]

I have had success replacing the old primers by first using a spent 209 and forcing it in then out and then seating a new 209. Have done this with 28 paper and 16 paper and plastic. Again first seat a SPENT 209 and then the live one

I have seen some 10 ga paper hulls loaded with 209s im guessing they were late production 10 ga 2 7/8 .

The Winchester hulls I was looking at are primed with a Winchester #4 primer .
I couldnt find much info about them when trying to google them .

[CraigThompson]

I had a few hundred of the size primers they used in the old hulls but have used them up think they were #57 or #67 something like that . And as stated above I got them so I could use 209’s after I used up the correct size primers .

[Milton C Starr]

I had a few hundred of the size primers they used in the old hulls but have used them up think they were #57 or #67 something like that . And as stated above I got them so I could use 209’s after I used up the correct size primers .

Well I was just thinking it would be cool to have maybe 10 or so 10 ga paper hulls loaded up for turkey season . Those old hulls can be expensive and turkey hunting uses a low ammo count I think a few would last awhile .

To me nothing looks better than a rolled crimped paper hull with your vintage sxs .

[Rick Losey]

just remember - the old primers were corrosive

the pitting we see is more due to them than the commonly blamed black powder, that is why you'll see pitting in a gun made after smokeless was common

[CraigThompson]

just remember - the old primers were corrosive

the pitting we see is more due to them than the commonly blamed black powder, that is why you'll see pitting in a gun made after smokeless was common

The primers thst were slightly smaller that I had , I don’t think were corrosive . They were made in the 50’s 60’s or early 70’s I think .

[Daniel Carter]

My experience is replacing the 57 primer with the 209, if the 4 is the same as the 57 give or take it should work.

[Milton C Starr]

just remember - the old primers were corrosive

the pitting we see is more due to them than the commonly blamed black powder, that is why you'll see pitting in a gun made after smokeless was common

I was talking about this with a forum member this morning , ive read it was the salts that old primers had that made them so corrosive ?

I bought a never opened ammo case years ago that was packed with 30-06 ammo in the M1 Garand stripper clips . the cardboard on them looked new.
It was loaded or at least packed in the ammo can in 1969 . We shot them through a cheap bolt gun we had. It left a nasty green residue in the bore . I assume that was from the primers ?

I wouldnt use old primers in a vintage double though because you dont know if you are going to get a squib load or not using them .

I dug up a old thread on here someone was asking about if they could use the 10 ga paper hulls that were loaded with flares . They are a green hull and look to use a 209 primer . Theres a whole box of them on GB and they look pristine .

[Dave Noreen]

Winchester's NEW No. 4 was their primer for their REPEATER, LEADER, PIGEON and Metal Lined shells from about 1904 to the July 1931 Winchester catalog.

LEADER shell with the earlier No. 4 primer --

81975

LEADER shell with the NEW No. 4 primer --

81976

NEW No. 4 primers --

81974

81977

Winchester was purchased out of receivership by the Olin's of Western Cartridge Co. December 22, 1931. By the 1933 Winchester catalog the LEADER, REPEATER, Super-Speed and RANGER loaded shells were all being produced with Staynless priming, mirroring Western's Non-Corrosive priming in their RECORD, FIELD, Super-X and XPERT loaded shells.

[Milton C Starr]

These are the hulls I mentioned
https://simpsonltd.com/winchester-10-gauge-paper-shotshells/

It says the New No 4 was for loads not execding 3 1/2 drams but that seems wrong for the 10 ga 2 7/8 . All the vintage boxes ive seen list the dram equiv for it between 4-5 drams .

[Dave Noreen]

While I don't have a good supply of early Winchester paper, I do have access to plenty of Union Metallic Cartridge Co. paper. In the UMC 1900 catalog, the heaviest 10-gauge load they offered in their low brass NITRO CLUB shell (their equal to the Winchester REPEATER) was 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. 1901 to 1909 the same. By the 1905 UMC catalog the max load offered in their high brass ARROW shell was 4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot, and by 1906 it was up to 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder.

The 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder, or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder, pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot was the heaviest 10-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered until the progressive burning powder, high velocity, loads with 1 5/8 ounce of shot came out circa 1925-6.

[CraigThompson]

These are the hulls I mentioned
https://simpsonltd.com/winchester-10-gauge-paper-shotshells/

It says the New No 4 was for loads not execding 3 1/2 drams but that seems wrong for the 10 ga 2 7/8 . All the vintage boxes ive seen list the dram equiv for it between 4-5 drams .

There was a time I’d liked to have had a full
Box of WIN 10 gauge Repeaters to go with the full boxes of Repeaters I had in 12 , 20 and 28 gauge . But I’ve sold them so that’s past .

[Milton C Starr]

While I don't have a good supply of early Winchester paper, I do have access to plenty of Union Metallic Cartridge Co. paper. In the UMC 1900 catalog, the heaviest 10-gauge load they offered in their low brass NITRO CLUB shell (their equal to the Winchester REPEATER) was 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. 1901 to 1909 the same. By the 1905 UMC catalog the max load offered in their high brass ARROW shell was 4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot, and by 1906 it was up to 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder.

The 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder, or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder, pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot was the heaviest 10-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered until the progressive burning powder, high velocity, loads with 1 5/8 ounce of shot came out circa 1925-6.

You're right I went back and looked at the boxes for sell and all the 4 3/4 dram loads are 1 5/8 oz .

Sounds kind of odd that the 1 5/8oz load was developed so late , because that should be close to the weight of a 10 gauge round ball load . Then again I suppose post choke guns round balls were no longer used ? .

Have you loaded any of the UMC paper hulls ? Would be interesting to see them reloaded.

[Milton C Starr]

There was a time I’d liked to have had a full
Box of WIN 10 gauge Repeaters to go with the full boxes of Repeaters I had in 12 , 20 and 28 gauge . But I’ve sold them so that’s past .

Ive just been looking at paper hulls and such to see if they were salvageable for reloading . Theres a guy on GB selling 3 boxes of 10 ga 2 7/8 ammo , so far the auctions only hit $20 . Seems fairly cheap compared to the other vintage ammo going for $400+ for a single box .

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/860450843

[charlie cleveland]

i tried shooting some old repeater amm the other day one was a ten ga another 12 ga 2 3/4 inch a 3 inch magnum and another 3 inch with the 1 3/8 oz load...none would fire i snapped the primers at least 3 times...every thing haveing no 57 or 209 primers have fired in old ammo for me...charlie...i use small and large pistol primers for most of my old brass shells i load....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

i tried shooting some old repeater amm the other day one was a ten ga another 12 ga 2 3/4 inch a 3 inch magnum and another 3 inch with the 1 3/8 oz load...none would fire i snapped the primers at least 3 times...every thing haveing no 57 or 209 primers have fired in old ammo for me...charlie...i use small and large pistol primers for most of my old brass shells i load....charlie

I watched Larry Potterfield loading original 10 ga brass hulls I think they were UMC , he used large pistol primers if I recall .

I watched a youtube video of a guy hunting ducks with a box of 12 ga shells from the 1950s . They fired each time but he didnt realize those old shells were lead :whistle:.

If the paper hulls dont work out I may eventually ordered some brass ones from RCC .

[Dave Noreen]

From what I've read, the non-corrosive primers don't have near the longevity of the old corrosive primers. Back in 2000 a friend gave me a late 1930s box of Winchester Super-Speed 12-gauge #6C. I took them with me to Nebraska and after getting a click, click at the first rooster I got up, I tried several more and none fired, so I left them on a fence post at a public hunting area in the southeast corner of Nebraska.

The lead balls for "single-ball" loads put out by our North American ammunition companies were 1 1/8 ounce in 10-gauge, 1 ounce in 12-gauge, 7/8 ounce in 16-gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20-gauge and 1/2 ounce in 28-gauge. The balls were small enough to go through chokes, the gas sealing being done by the wads.

The ball diameters were --

10-gauge -- .710"
12-gauge -- .645"
16-gauge -- .610"
20-gauge -- .545"
28-gauge -- .510"

[Dave Noreen]

The original shells in question are over 100 years old.

[edgarspencer]

Milton, Check your PMs

[Milton C Starr]

From what I've read, the non-corrosive primers don't have near the longevity of the old corrosive primers. Back in 2000 a friend gave me a late 1930s box of Winchester Super-Speed 12-gauge #6C. I took them with me to Nebraska and after getting a click, click at the first rooster I got up, I tried several more and none fired, so I left them on a fence post at a public hunting area in the southeast corner of Nebraska.

The lead balls for "single-ball" loads put out by our North American ammunition companies were 1 1/8 ounce in 10-gauge, 1 ounce in 12-gauge, 7/8 ounce in 16-gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20-gauge and 1/2 ounce in 28-gauge. The balls were small enough to go through chokes, the gas sealing being done by the wads.

The ball diameters were --

10-gauge -- .710"
12-gauge -- .645"
16-gauge -- .610"
20-gauge -- .545"
28-gauge -- .510"

Ah , see for the 10 gauge I was looking at .775 round balls which are 700grs pretty close to 1 5/8 which I think its 710gr . That would be a tight ball for a smoothbore though .

This was the chart I was looking at .
Pure Lead Ball Weight
.662 = 437 grains
.678 = 469 grains
.680 = 473 grains
.690 = 495 grains
.715 = 550 grains
.730 = 586 grains
.735 = 598 grains
.760 = 661 grains
.775 = 700 grains
.835 = 875 grains
.919 = 1167 grains
1.052 = 1750 grains

The .760 661grs comes out to 1.5 oz with a 0.010 patch would be .77 which would fit a 10 ga . But from what ive read on roundballs, guns can be picky about roundball diameter and patch thickness .


A different question , is there any benefit to using a slit vs unslit wad ?
Though I want to try the fiber wads to get a feel of how it was done 100 years ago .