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Frank Srebro
03-12-2020, 02:49 PM
So last Saturday I cranked up one of my idle MEC 9000’s to reload (100) 12-gauge shells with a favorite load for casual sporting clays ….. Remington Gun Club hulls with XY.Z grains of Alliant E3 powder and 1 ounce of 7-1/2’s. Velocity 1150 with relatively mild recoil. That particular 9000 press has long been set up for that load which I use in all my SxS’s and pump guns. I fired (50) of the reloads on Sunday along with (50) factory shells. That was with a Winchester Model 12 pump gun and all was well except that one of the reloads was a squib load that sounded pretty weak but the shot and wad did clear the barrel.

Yesterday I was out with a Winchester Model 21 Trap double gun, starting to get in gear for upcoming SxS events. I was going to shoot the remaining (50) reloads along with (50) factory loads. About ½ way around the course I fired at a clay and the report was exceptionally loud and the recoil very severe. One of my buddies said the gun had "doubled" but I didn’t hear or feel two quick and distinct reports. Then upon opening the 21 the left hull ejected, and the right shell was unfired and it extracted as normal (I had the trigger set for left barrel first).

Ok what happened? As best I can figure the squib load on Sunday resulted from powder that had somehow clogged up in the drop tube and that hull received only a small partial charge. Then the very next hull on the carousel received the proper charge from the charge bar PLUS what had lodged in the drop tube. The result was a pretty severe overload and that’s the one I shot yesterday. How much of an overload is unknown but considering that weak squib load it must have been pretty hot.

More on my conjecture that powder clogged up in the drop tube: Well, I usually fill the powder and shot bottles on the 9000 and leave the remaining contents in those bottles until the next time at the press. The E3 powder on Saturday was there in the bottle for way longer than usual, maybe about six weeks while I and my buddies were concentrating on shooting small bores. Did that long interval of weeks cause the powder to clump up? Is there another explanation?

I don’t remember reading this caution before but from now on I’ll remove the powder bottle from the press when done loading and dump the remaining powder back into the factory container.

On reflection I’m happy I was shooting that Model 21 yesterday. Winchester reported one of them fired 2000 Proof Loads each with “seven and one-half tons pressure” with no ill effects.

FMI, I’m attaching three pics:

1) See how the metal base on the hull expanded into the cut-out in the breech that holds the left ejector. The hull base in that area is now eccentric by .008” and mind you, the Gun Club hulls are unibody and don’t have a separate base wad.

2) The second pic shows the flattened primer with the start of a crater rim, and how powder gasses escaped around part of the primer pocket; this is a twice fired hull and the primer wasn't loose in the pocket

3) Last pic shows how the plastic hull material (second hull from the right) extruded forward by about .060” as compared with the other fired hulls shown for comparison.

Rick Losey
03-12-2020, 03:02 PM
wow-

glad there was no damage -

I do not reload near as much as most - but when I do, i always throw and measure a few loads to be sure everything is working

but - it would make more sense to empty the powder back into the factory bottle when its going to sit unused



once more good safety idea for a potentially dangerous passtime

Austin J Hawthorne Jr.
03-12-2020, 03:44 PM
This post makes me glad that I use a MEC Sizemaster. Since I have to move the shell manually, an almost double charge of powder would have caused the shot column be noticeably higher, when moving the shell to the crimping stations, and would have been seen prior to pre crimping. I doubt any of my guns would have been undamaged by the load your Model 21 digested.

James L. Martin
03-12-2020, 03:48 PM
Frank, that possibly always was in the back of my mind using a progressive machine , I now use single stage most of the time ,can't happen, same drop tube for shot and powder, if there is a hangup you can't miss the mess it makes.

Daryl Corona
03-12-2020, 03:50 PM
That is kind of scary Frank but using a MEC 9000 and Extra lite powder I've never experienced that problem. That M21 can certainly handle that but I can't for the life of me explain why that happened. Thank God you are safe.

Daniel Carter
03-12-2020, 04:28 PM
I had that problem a year ago during humid weather. I started loading 7/8 12 ga. and the 3rd shell from the 9000 was dished and something told me to open it up, no powder, the next had no powder. Checked the tube and there it was, only caught it by good luck. When I poked it with a screw driver it broke out and was clumpy. Dumped the powder in the bottle and cleaned the drop tube and bar and bushing, no further problem. Check any anomaly no matter how minor. Glad all is well.

James L. Martin
03-12-2020, 04:42 PM
Wow, a possible triple load. That is why I take apart any shell I am not 100% happy with for any reason .

Daniel Carter
03-12-2020, 05:31 PM
If a triple load that shell would be domed and suspect. Any thing out of the ordinary is worth checking.

Jack Damon
03-12-2020, 11:27 PM
God was with you that day. I'm very happy you weren't harmed in any way.

Donald McQuade
03-13-2020, 07:49 AM
Frank, thanks for sharing. Just another example that no matter how many times you do something, when dealing with firearms you can never take anything for granted. Thank God you are OK, and that you happened to be shooting a Model 21 that day and not one of your old Foxes or Lefevers.

Frank Srebro
03-13-2020, 07:50 AM
Thanks everyone for your kind comments. Yes that shot on Wednesday definitely got my attention. I've reloaded shotshells for over two decades now and never had anything like this happen. Here's some additional data.

The charge of Alliant E3 I use is relatively light and this morning just for test I loaded one Gun Club hull with 1.5 X that powder charge weight and the rest of the loading operations went as usual. The crimp looked typical and without a hint of a bulge. Then when I cut that shell apart I found the powder tightly compressed. Those of you who load light so-called "low pressure" shotgun loads with any powder should be aware of this. Incidentally that 1.5 X weight of Alliant E3 is way over the max shown in Alliant's loading data for my GC hull and components recipe.

One other possible factor: like most of my friends I use a "baffle" beneath the powder bottle to decrease the range of variability of the powder drops. Now, I don't know if it had anything to do with clumping of powder I left ~6 weeks in the press. You'll see in the last pic (looking down from the powder bottle) how there are two baffles that each block about 1/2 of the cross-section and cause the powder flow to reverse before getting to the powder bushing in the charge bar.

Daniel Carter
03-13-2020, 08:36 AM
Frank that is very interesting that a 1.5 charge did not show externally. The wad has enough room to allow that with out causing a bulge. Thank you

John Campbell
03-13-2020, 08:48 AM
... like most of my friends I use a "baffle" beneath the powder bottle to decrease the range of variability of the powder drops. Now, I don't know if it had anything to do with clumping of powder I left ~6 weeks in the press, but you'll see in the last pic (looking down from the powder bottle) how there are two baffles that each block about 1/2 of the cross-section and cause the powder flow to reverse before getting to the powder bushing in the charge bar.

Contrary to what some believe a powder baffle is good for, it can impede powder flow. Especially powder that has had 6 weeks to absorb moisture. You will note that MEC does not make or offer powder baffles for its machines. Only certain aftermarket makers.

Curtis Jennings
03-13-2020, 11:35 AM
John is right on about those powder baffles. I bought one many years ago when they first came out, and after testing with several different powders I found it made the charge weight much more inconsistent with some powders. Never used it again. Also it is best not to leave powder to long in the loader, It is both light and moisture sensitive. Here in the Pacific NW moisture is always a problem and I have had it clump up surprisingly quickly.

Frank Srebro
03-13-2020, 02:13 PM
I had an opposite experience and found the baffle more consistent. When I bought it some years ago I tested the powder drop weights (with/without) while using IMR "PB" powder and a particular bushing I was routinely using at the time. The extreme range of variability (3rd sigma as in statistics) was > half less with the baffle, than without. That's with 20 powder drops in each mode and the data is in my reloading log book. I still have a lot of "PB" squirreled away and like it for composite barrels but have gone to 700-X for paper shells and to E3 in plastics for my casual 12-gauge clays shooting with steel barreled guns. Just the way I do it …….

No, I didn't do the with/without drop weight testing using the baffle with either of the latter two powders.

Pete Lester
03-13-2020, 03:54 PM
One other possible factor: like most of my friends I use a "baffle" beneath the powder bottle to decrease the range of variability of the powder drops. Now, I don't know if it had anything to do with clumping of powder I left ~6 weeks in the press. You'll see in the last pic (looking down from the powder bottle) how there are two baffles that each block about 1/2 of the cross-section and cause the powder flow to reverse before getting to the powder bushing in the charge bar.

Those baffles are junk, I remember having a problem with light drops and threw the one I had away in the 1980's when I was loading for ATA shoots on a MEC 650.

Curtis Jennings
03-13-2020, 04:25 PM
I have had trouble with the spring return of the charge bar on my progressive mecs. Usually it was a piece of shot that got sheared off and would stop the bar from going all the way back causing a lite charge of powder. But anyway, the baffle could not have caused the 1.5x charge because it is above the charge bar and bushing. The bridging would have to have been in the drop tube somehow.

Daryl Corona
03-13-2020, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the heads up Frank. Glad you and the Winny came through it with no damage. I've been using that exact baffle with no problems yet and it sits atop one of the multi-charge bars which some people love to hate. I not sure what went wrong with your reload but I think dumping the powder after each session is wise. Could static electricity had anything to do with it?

Tim Thomas
03-14-2020, 02:35 PM
Great story and investigation Frank. I shoot a lot of trap at big shoots so shoot with lots of different shooters. Can think of many instances of squib loads and wonder how many overloads go along with these? Scary stuff for sure.

todd allen
03-18-2020, 11:57 AM
Thankfully this experience happened with a M 21. I have reloaded for quite a few years, and have gotten into the habit of visually inspecting shells as I load the gun.
An abnormal looking shell goes in a pants pocket for later review. Usual issues are a tipped wad.