Francotte Experts Out There?

[Dean Weber]

Hoping for some help. This Francotte seems not to be imported by the usual pathways. I don't see anything which would indicate model, which is what I am interested in. No serial number match at G&H. I am posting pictures of any proof/markings I can find as I am uncertain if I am missing a clue. It has ejectors and no importer markings I can find. Thanks!

[Dean Romig]

A beautiful Francotte!





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[Bob Jurewicz]

I don't know if this will help or not?
It comes from Doublegunshop.com.
Bob Jurewicz

[Drew Hause]

Sweet.
It does not have a lettre annale so was made 1910-1921.
Interesting that it is marked Poudres Pyroxilees. Pyroxile = gun cotton = nitrocellulose.
SO the gun was designed for Nitro powders, but does not carry Smokeless Powder proof. That is not uncommon with Belgian guns built for export to the U.S. Smokeless proof was optional until the Proof House revisions of 1924.
Obviously the Siemens-Martin steel is good stuff. 'JV' could be Joseph Vandalem de Chaudfontaine who made the tubes from Siemens-Martin steel provided by Acier Cockerill Liégeoise

Sorry but no help with the model.
Cornell Pubs has a 1912 Francotte catalog
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3196

[Dean Weber]

Thanks Bob - I have read that information and I don't see my answer. The side selector and safety is what is throwing me. From my evaluation it is a more modern gun not imported by VLD or AF. Thanks for your assistance, greatly appreciated. I spoke with Stephen Cobb and he is unsure as well.

[Dean Weber]

Drew, I am not familiar with lettre annale. What does that mean?

[Drew Hause]

"Date letters". The year it was proved, not necessarily manufactured

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17575181/274105421.jpg

Very similar barrel markings on this Von Lengerke & Detmold import which by the SN would be an 1899 DOM
https://www.icollector.com/Pre-War-Francotte-Side-by-Side-Shotgun_i13827911

Your SN DOM is 1903

[Dean Weber]

More pics...

[Dean Weber]

Drew, does the Poudres Pyroxilees mean a direct translation to smokeless powder? There are other Belgian proofs which would be more direct in this translation, correct?

[Dean Romig]

A fabulous gun!





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[Drew Hause]

It is an earlier term for Nitro powder. Later you mostly see Poudre Vive or Poudre Sans Fumée - Smokeless powder.

Smokeless Powder proof marks

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17575181/405607380.jpg

[Dean Weber]

Drew, thanks for your knowledge on this one. With the 2 3/4 chambers and the very pristine condition, I was going in the direction of a more modern gun imported after AF. I am floored that it is a 1920 or earlier gun. Appreciate you passing on your knowledge. Ever seen the side selector on the Francottes?

[David Gehman]

If pre 1920, unreal condition, looks even unfired. Must have been kept in a hermetically sealed box. Very nice!!

[Drew Hause]

The SN dates the DOM to 1903

I've not seen a Francotte side selector.
Here's a sideplate boxlock with a Greener side safety
http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EuropeanPage47.htm

At the time of proof the bores were 18.4 mm = .724" and the Belgian typical
Right is ?18.2 = .717" = .007"
Left 17.7 = .693" = .031"

I don't see that the chamber length at proof is indicated; and that was part of optional Smokeless Proof.
It would be marked as 70 (if 2 3/4") over the chamber diameter, usually 20.6 mm for 12g.
Lots of Francotte imports though are marked 2 3/4" on the underside of one barrel.

[Scott Chapman]

I am definitely not an expert on Francotte, but I did notice the AF with crown marks on both of the barrels on the distal end of the barrel flats. Additionally the AF with crown in oval shows up on the receiver.

I read a little farther along in the Double Gun thread (some of it got cut off when attached here) and I found the following:

"One interesting note – in June 1955 the A&F Francotte serial numbers, which had reached up into the 90,000’s, started over with number 1001 – a Knockabout gun. The number of Francotte’s imported picked up again after the war until the 1960’s when the sale of Francotte’s began to be overtaken by the A&F Zoli-Rizzini’s. Francotte continued to manufacture sidelock guns with serial numbers in the high 80,000 and low 90,000 serial range but these were not imported by A&F and do not appear in the A&F record books.

A&F imported a large number of Over/Under shotguns that, while they are not stamped with the Francotte name, do have the maker’s mark ‘AF’ in an oval and topped by a crown among the proof marks. These would also be Francotte shotguns."

So I think this may explain the serial number difference and the AF and crown in oval proof marks. It is possibly a newer (since 1955) Francotte imported by AF.

[Drew Hause]

Neither the action nor barrel flats have a date code.
A 1955 gun would have this Smokeless Proof mark

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17575181/411212377.jpg

and the bore and chamber length within a lying Omega; a 1937 gun with a 'p' date code

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17575181/411209549.jpg

I have been a bit confused by the bore over muzzle constriction mark, not usually found prior to 1910, which suggests the gun may have been reproved at some point.

Very similar barrel markings on this Von Lengerke & Detmold import which by the SN would be an 1899 DOM
https://www.icollector.com/Pre-War-Francotte-Side-by-Side-Shotgun_i13827911

[Dean Weber]

Drew, my main point for posting this was because (exactly as you indicated), it did not have the smokeless proof and it also does not display the chamber (70MM). Your point about the date code also makes sense. This gun screams modern and custom to me.

[Ken Hill]

Dean,

A nice looking gun. How does the side safety work?

Ken

[Mark Ray]

That is an amazing gun

[davidboyles]

Stunning piece of Belgium craftsmanship. I own one Francotte 20 and a Deforney 16 (7 pin side lock) that is a beautiful balanced gun. I hunted doves and blue quail in NM. It is 2 3/4 ". I think it is late 40's gun. Did anyone notice how fine the checkering is on your gun!! I'm not a stock maker but I venture to say 28 LPI or 30 LPI. Great work they did along with the old standby "Browning." Thanks for showing

[Dean Weber]

Dean,

A nice looking gun. How does the side safety work?

Ken

If looking at the lever (left side)....9 oclock is right barrel first, 12 is left barrel first, and 3 oclock is safe. Kind of funky.

[Dean Weber]

Stunning piece of Belgium craftsmanship. I own one Francotte 20 and a Deforney 16 (7 pin side lock) that is a beautiful balanced gun. I hunted doves and blue quail in NM. It is 2 3/4 ". I think it is late 40's gun. Did anyone notice how fine the checkering is on your gun!! I'm not a stock maker but I venture to say 28 LPI or 30 LPI. Great work they did along with the old standby "Browning." Thanks for showing

Checkering is 32 LPI

[John Dallas]

D = Droit (Right)
G = Gauche (Left)
S = Sauf (Safe)

[Ken Hill]

If looking at the lever (left side)....9 oclock is right barrel first, 12 is left barrel first, and 3 oclock is safe. Kind of funky.


It would take some practice to get use to it!

Ken

[Alan B. Webber]

I just bought one because I love the engraving on them, elegant finely engraved birds and really nicely engraved detonators. Beautiful wood, well balanced, I've been shooting ZZs with it lately and it's a great shooter.
I can't wait to do ducks with it this season.