Parker GH 16 Damascus-wall thickness

[Garhart Stephenson]

I find myself in need of expertise. Today the Parker GH 16 ga. arrived from Griffin and Howe. I assembled my wall thickness gauge and took a lot of readings, over and over. The gauge rods flex, so it takes good technique to get accurate readings, thus the desire to repeat. Wall thickness is up to .006" below the recommended minimums I was able to find. I believe that those figures were for 10-12 ga. guns, but have no separate list for 16 ga. In theory, the smaller the bore, the greater proportion of wall to bore/ surface area is, but how much difference it makes I am unqualified to put into reliable numbers.

Overall the gun is in very good condition, even if the barrels appear trimmed at 27 7/8". Listed as I/C & Mod, but choke measurements show Cyl. & Mod. Top lever is far right of center and condition of the gun indicates minimal use. Bores are .663-.664, shiny with just a hint of frosting. Honed? More likely just polished at some time. Barrels may have been refinished long ago, edges are not rounded off anywhere but there are two vent holes on the bottom rib, one on each side of the forearm lug. That tells me someone was worried about draining chemicals and etchant during a refinish.

The area of concern is along the bottom joining rib. Chamber and forcing cone measurements are pretty uniform around the circumference. It's further down that things get eccentric. Looking at the muzzle end, it appears that the tubes have always been that way since the eccentricity continues between the barrels and not just along the rib. Measurements, minimums:

Chamber/forcing cone jct.: R .095"/ L .087"
End of forcing cones: R .107"/ .106"
9" from breech: R .039"/ L .042"
12" from breech: R .026"/ L .033"
9" from muzzle" R .019"/ L .023"

As I take measurements further around the circumference from the bottom rib, thickness increases noticeably, by .010" or greater. I'm curious what Drew (sent you an e-mail) and others with more experience evaluating situations like this think. Useable or lost cause? My intent is hunting with mild loads.
http://https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/59460_1000x667.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/59460_1000x667/)
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[Dean Romig]

Hello Garhart. I bought my first Damascus barreled Parker (GHE) 16 gauge on the 0-frame from Tony Galazan back in 2003 and soon sent the barrels to Oscar Gaddy for evaluation. Serial number is 79355 and the barrels were originally 28” but as advertised, they had been cut to 26”. The gun had warts but the barrels appeared to be un-messed with.
I’m not making any recommendations here but when I got Oscar’s letter back with the barrels I bought a flat of RST 2 1/2” “Lite” shells and never looked back.

Anyone today would tell me today that with wall thickness like mine has at the juncture of the chamber and the forcing cone that it shouldn’t be shot and just hang it on the wall but I have shot it a lot at both upland birds as well as Skeet.

I would not be overly concerned with that .019 thickness 9” from the muzzle and all the other measurements appear to be ok for low pressure loads. I’m no expert on barrels but I would enjoy shooting your gun.
That .026” at 12” from the breech is a bit thin maybe....

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[Garhart Stephenson]

That's similar to what Drew has told me his e-mail. The chamber thickness listed in your letter really raised my eyebrows! I am sorting through low pressure loading data today to find if there are any 3/4 oz. and 7/8 oz. loads that I would actually hunt with. With such light loads and the choking of this gun, it will definitely be good in the woods, but quite limited on the prairies. It's not my only gun though and I can live with it being a blue and ruffed grouse special.

[Drew Hause]

Thanks for posting that Dean.
Unfortunately we can't inquire exactly where "junction of chamber & forcing cone" WT was measured.
If that is the "end of the chamber" (toward the muzzle; not breech) .068" is well below CIPs recommendations of .075" for a 20g with “Standard Steel” (Non-alloy AISI 1045) with tensile strength = 101,526-123,137 psi

Crolle damascus tensile strength averages about 55,000 psi or 1/2 that

Austin Hogan observed that factory small frame Parker 20g and 16g gun may have an end of the chamber WT < .090"

.068" is also well below any measurement documented here
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=158096#post158096
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1565&page=4

It might be very interesting, and prudent, to repeat the "end of the chamber" WT measurements.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Garth, if you keep it, have several good 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads that I use in my GH16 o frame--also some 1 oz.

[Randy G Roberts]

Just yesterday evening at the local gun club I measured an Imman Meffert Suhl 12 ga with undersized .714 bores of Krupp steel for the Member who acquired it. I measured it as upon examination the chambers appeared lengthened. The chambers measured 3.25" and at that juncture with the forcing cones the WT was .070 (L) and .072 (R). I offered my opinion which was one he did not cherish. Another club member opined that Krupp steel was of the finest in the world and that this gun was safe to shoot with any modern ammo but he should probably shy away from the "really big trap loads". To the Members credit he put the gun in the rack stating he did not want to see anyone get hurt. I applaud him for that. After some discussion he is going to have some conversation with Briley and possibly two gunsmiths as recommended to discuss options.

[Bruce Day]

Need to be .100 -.110” for a 12.

[Dean Romig]

Drew, I’ll bring the barrels to Ernie’s in early June. Hoping Jon Hosford will be there.





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[Phil Yearout]

Is it just me, or the photo, or are the stock and forend two different colors? Numbers all match?

[Garth Gustafson]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;295272]Hello Garhart. I bought my first Damascus barreled Parker (GHE) 16 gauge on the 0-frame from Tony Galazan back in 2003 and soon sent the barrels to Oscar Gaddy for evaluation. Serial number is 79355 and the barrels were originally 28” but as advertised, they had been cut to 26”. The gun had warts but the barrels appeared to be un-messed with.
I’m not making any recommendations here but when I got Oscar’s letter back with the barrels I bought a flat of RST 2 1/2” “Lite” shells and never looked back.

Anyone today would tell me today that with wall thickness like mine has at the juncture of the chamber and the forcing cone that it shouldn’t be shot and just hang it on the wall but I have shot it a lot at both upland birds as well as Skeet.

I would not be overly concerned with that .019 thickness 9” from the muzzle and all the other measurements appear to be ok for low pressure loads. I’m no expert on barrels but I would enjoy shooting your gun.
That .026” at 12” from the breech is a bit thin maybe....

I’m sure there are quite a few 16ga 0 frames with Damascus barrels out there being shot with similar wall thickness. Case in point, my GH serial # 85947. Measurements were .078 and .067 taken at the juncture of the forcing cone and bore. The barrels were inspected and deemed safe to shoot with low pressure RST loads.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Phil, numbers match. Picture was taken in poor light and my shadow kind of go in the way a little. Forearm matches but stock nicely.

Still undecided if I'm keeping it. The loadings will be mighty limited since it has been suggested that I stay around 5,500 psi and no heavier than 7/8 oz. Basically I'm asking it to be a 28 ga. ( I would love one of the 28 ga. Reproductions someday). I will decide in the morning. There is another very nice gun on the market that I also like, even if it's not a Parker, and it would fill my needs nicely.

[Dennis Yager]

I believe I bought that GH a few months ago. After my measurements I returned it.

[Garhart Stephenson]

With a heavy heart...I'm sending it back too. Just finished talking with Griffin and Howe. Time to build a shipping crate.

[edgarspencer]

Using a wall thickness gauge such as a Manson (similar to your) Requires practice. The picture you posted shows the dial indicator at ZERO with the gauge laying down, so I can safely say, it was not correctly zeroed when you took your measurements.

[Garhart Stephenson]

No, it was actually zeroed in the position of use for measuring a horizontally secured barrel. I checked zero in it's natural horizontal position due to rod flex. I checked it with a metal strip of known and verified thickness, with the gauge in it's natural position for horizontal use and the readings are correct. The dial was only reset for the purpose of taking the photo. I took the readings 8 times and they came up the same each time.

[edgarspencer]

Sounds like you understand how to use the gauge, but you'd be shocked to see how many don't.
John Hosford has a good video on YouTube on how to zero his gauge, and that method pretty much applies to all horizontal, hand held devices.

[Bill Murphy]

As I have explained and discussed many times before, horizontal with the barrels clamped horizontally is the correct and most accurate way to use a Manson gauge. Good work. I wonder what happened to that gun, considering that the bore measurements appear original? Maybe some Brit gunsmith did the barrel refinish and didn't get it right the first seven or eight times he restruck them.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Dennis, did you purchase the gun from Griffin and Howe? Would you recognize the gun if I posted better photos? If this is the second time they sold the same gun, they should be good enough to cover my shipping and insurance costs.

[Dennis Yager]

Yes Griffin and Howe is the engraving around the breech a little weird? I recognize the nice wood and weep holes. I made a offer with my return but they declined.

[Bill Murphy]

The solution is to ask a mega company like G&H to specify wall thickness before the deal goes through.

[Garry L Gordon]

I can't believe that Griffon and Howe wouldn't measure bores (I know that liability is the governing factor with most in regard to old guns). Many years ago (so, obviously, old news) I sent them a Fox to extend the chambers and lengthen the forcing cones. The smith called me and said he could and would lengthen the chambers, but would not lengthen the cones because it would make the barrels too thin in that area. I respected that. With all we know about wall thickness and pressures, I'm very surprised by your experience. I think you are doing the right thing.

[Dennis Yager]

They may have, I can’t speak for Garth but I thought it was a great price. So much so I considered keeping it and fitting another set of barrels. In hindsight I believed they had it priced accordingly to its condition. Easy to comment after the fact on solutions, as they say In the car industry “ the rear window is always cleaner then the windshield “.

[Bill Murphy]

Great price? Did they lower the price after it was returned once or more? Did they say there was a problem?

[Dennis Yager]

Bill I don’t know what G&H did, said or the price anyone else paid. If it’s important to you call them. All I know was my experience and my thoughts related to my purchase and return. I don’t appreciate the negativity or being questioned on my decisions.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Dennis, do these photos look familiar? Note the steel filled epoxy added to fill the gap in the muzzle where the solder has a void, and the sloppy job on the front bead. I took a close up of the engraving at the breech too since you mentioned it. The left barrel also had noticeable upturn to it toward the end, somewhat like a banana. It was noticeable when I looked down the side of the tube. The right barrel curved slightly too, but not as much. The gun is now in a box...
http://https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/59491_565x768.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/59491_565x768/)
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[Dennis Yager]

97138

[Dean Romig]

That left tube has been grossly honed. One would never expect to see such a thin medial wall. That can only come from honing. It would be impossible otherwise and it would never have left Meriden in that condition.





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[Bill Murphy]

Dennis, I'm sorry I seem to have offended you. I certainly did not mean to. I am merely trying to find out whether G&H is intentionally sending out guns with known faults without mentioning those faults. We are all potential customers.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Dennis, that is indeed the serial number. Same gun. Thank you.

[Brian Dudley]

As a sidenote: The buttstock on the gun is also not right. It is either an old restock, OR more likely a refinished original. The shape of the cheeks and the comb are all wrong. And the checkering also completely incorrect. But it does look like it is the actual original stock that was just improperly reworked.

[Brian Dudley]

Also I will add that 0 frame 16g. guns are probably one of the most important combinations to look out for when it comes to wall thickness. This is just due to the physical dimensions of the 0 frame compared to the 16g chamber/bore. They make for light guns, which means also light barrels. Of course the thickness on these guns were originally thinner than larger framed guns on a whole.

[Shawn Wayment]

I have the same gun and asked the same questions on this forum...I've put 2000 plus rounds through it...all RST of course!

[Garhart Stephenson]

I imagine yours has proper wall thickness.

[Shawn Wayment]

I imagine yours has proper wall thickness.

I sure hope so :eek: :)

[Harold Lee Pickens]

This post has me wandering about my GH 16 Damascus O frame now. Traded a Francotte 12 ga sidelock for it years ago at Hausmann''s. Shoot only 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads thru it, and it has taken quite a few pheasant. Used it in Kansas 2 years ago when it was 10 degrees and I was having trouble getting the safety off the 4E Ithaca 16 with heavy gloves on. One of the things I have always liked about Parkers is their large, butter smooth safety.
Looks like I need to have the wall thickness checked on it . Like Shawn, have put a lot of rounds thru it.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Absolutely love the Parker safety. Having struggled to work the safety on many guns in brutal cold conditions ( I am notorious for not liking gloves and hesitate to even use thin ones), I am considering the option of building Parker style safety slides for every double I own.

[Garhart Stephenson]

Update: Griffin and Howe refunded my purchase price, but not the shipping. I had requested reimbursement for shipping costs both ways since they sold me a gun that had previously failed safety inspection by another member here.

So I basically spent $130 to do their job of proper inspection for them, a dandy penalty for trusting them. They have a full gunsmithing department. The gun was stored at the gunsmithing department when I called to buy it. This isn't good. It chaps me that they sold this gun after it had failed inspection only a couple months earlier. My trust and confidence is history when an established company makes me pay for their mistake.

Keep an eye out to see if serial# 97138 comes up for sale a third time.

Go back and look at the muzzle photo. Notice how much thinner the wall is "inside" where it can't be measured? That wall is much thinner than along the bottom rib, where I could measure it and measured well below minimum.

[Dean Romig]

Entirely unethical of them. This foolish mistake on their part will cost them lost sales in the long run!





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[Garhart Stephenson]

This episode is turning into an Abbott and Costello script. The refund check they issued? They didn't sign it. Seriously. I've lost all confidence in G&H now. They offered to mail another. I said no, after a month of my money being tied up, this needs to end now. Hopefully they can handle the wire transfer to my bank without any hitches. I will know today...

[Brian Dudley]

The last time they bought parts from me, it took them quite a while for their accounting dept to get a check cut to me. But it did come. After I forgot about it.

[Reggie Bishop]

I had a similar experience with a "reputable" dealer that attends all the big meets. My money was refunded (all but shipping costs) but the fact they sold me a gun without full disclosure regarding a barrel issue really upset me. I have about decided dealers with integrity and honor are rare as hen's teeth.