RE INDEXING SCREWS

[Pat Dugan]

Since most of us are not the original owners of the Parkers that we have, the screws that are not properly indexed were replaced by others. I am sure a lot of screws were over tightened ,under tightened or replaced with trash in the treads ect. I have fixed a few with a little Teflon tape, but have not had much success if the screw is way off. Do you shorten them , or file off a little of the underside of the screw or what? I know this is a real open question, but there must be some hints to try that wont hurt the screw or the gun.

Thanks

PDD

[Jim Williams]

The first thing to do is make sure they are in the proper locations. Typically, the left-side screws have a "-" mark on the tips. Have you checked that?

[Bob Jurewicz]

If screw is in proper location, all threads clean an channels clean, I carefully file the underside of the scrw head for metal to metal fastening. For butt plates I ream the plate recess alittle deeper.
Bob Jurewicz

[Chris Travinski]

I have never tried, but have heard of people who put a few wraps of soft wire under the head instead of filing the bottom.

[John Dallas]

Doesn't that depend on whether the screw is proud to the surface, or recessed?

[Pat Dugan]

I did not know to check for the " - " Mark for the left side. I will be checking.

PDD

[Richard Flanders]

If the screw is proud it's likely in the wrong hole or is a poorly made replacement. I have been thinking of punching out v thin washers of soft copper that would fit floorplate screws that have been overtightened and improperly indexed. There must be sheet copper of shim-like thicknesses available that could be used for this, something in the .002" range. They would fit on the screw and would crush down to a certain extent if one was careful and would allow screws to be indexed properly and the soft copper would actually serve to prevent screws from backing out.

[Chris Travinski]

John your are right, but if a screw and its hole are clean and are still higher than the surrounding surface it is probably in the wrong hole.

[Jim Williams]

Pat,

Which screws are you working with? There can be different markings. For the screws on the side of the receiver the most common thing I've seen is "-" on the left screws and nothing on the right ("left" meaning on the same side as the actual left barrel, and "right" meaning the same side as the actual right barrel, regardless of how the gun is oriented when working on it).

For the floorplate screws, I've seen different combiniations. Early guns have two short screws in the doll's head, and one longer screw at the rear (partially covered by the forward bow of the triggerguard). For these, I've usually seen just a "-" on the left screw. The other short screw is the right side by default, because the longer screw (also unmarked) goes to the rear. Some (later?) guns have three screws of equal length. On these, usually the left is marked "-", the right is unmarked, and the rear one carries the "+" marking. The terms "left" and "right" used here still follow the same convention as the others, and are defined by the gun's actual left and right sides. Therefore, with the gun inverted, the left will appear to be on your right as you are viewing it).

These are general guidelines, and I suppose there could be other variations. If the above advice doesn't help, you can just experiment with different placement to see what gives you the best alignment. Whenever you see a gun with buggered screws, there's a good chance they also weren't put back in the right place. When someone doesn't know how to use a proper screwdriver, there's a really good chance they didn't know that it matters where the screws go either.

[Robin Lewis]

OK, this looks like a good FAQ to add to our web page. Before I add it, I would like comments to make sure it is accurate. I am not a person that takes Parkers apart, so its up to you to keep me on track. Here is what I have so far, when it look correct I'll add it to FAQ:How to get the proper index when working with Parker screw heads.


As you take apart a Parker shotgun, it is wise to remember the screw placement and one proven method to guarantee they go back where they came from is to use a stiff paper or wood block pattern, with holes arranged to mimic the screw arrangement for the right, left and bottom sides of the frame. Then as you remove any screw, place it in the paper or wood screw hole which corresponds to its original placement in the frame. Then, when you reassemble the frame, you will easily know where each screw belongs. Correct placement of the screws preserves proper screw slot alignment; which is always at right angles (either up & down or right & left).

If the screws are not aligned properly, the first thing to do is make sure they are in their proper locations. Typically, the screws on left side of the receiver are commonly marked with a "-" on its tip and nothing on the right. A "+" mark on any of them is usually an indication it is for the right side. The "left side" references the left side of the gun while looking at the bottom of the receiver with the barrels pointed away from you.

The floor plate screws can have different combination. Early guns have two short screws in the doll's head and one longer screw at the rear (partially covered by the forward bow of the trigger guard). For these, a "-" is usually seen on the left screw tip end. The other short screw (may be unmarked or it could also have a "+" marking) is the right side by default; the longer screw (also unmarked) obviously goes to the rear. Later guns often have three screws of equal length and on these the left is usually marked with a "-", the right has a "+", and the rear one is unmarked.

When installing these screws, insure the screw is in the proper location, and all the threads and channels are clean.

These are general guidelines, there could be other variations. If the above advice doesn't help, you can just experiment with different placement to see what gives you the best alignment.

Remember to always use the proper screwdrivers when working with any Parker screw to keep the screw head from being damaged.

[Richard Flanders]

Robin, you need to add something that defines "left" and "right" sides. It's different depending upon whether you have the gun right side up or upside down and with the bbls pointed away or towards you. That needs to be clearly defined.

[Robin Lewis]

OK, can someone define this for me, I don't know the answer?

[Dave Suponski]

I would say for ease of assembly and disassembly that the gun should be upside down with the barrels pointed away from you.

[Linn Matthews]

A quick point--a copper washer in contact with steel will cause a problem called "galvanic corrosion"- i.e., a very small electric current will be established between the two different metals causing erosion over time (yes, a long time but think Parker time)

[Robin Lewis]

I would say for ease of assembly and disassembly that the gun should be upside down with the barrels pointed away from you.

So, does this mean the screw with the "-" on the end is the screw on the left when the gun is upside down and barrels pointed away? And, the side screws with the "-" on them are also the screws on the left side of the frame when the gun is seen from the same position? Or, is the "-" on the screws on the left looking from the top with the gun pointed away?

Can someone who has done this please explain which is the left side screws?

[Robin Lewis]

Can someone help me with defining how to determine what "left" is when talking about where the screws are marked with a "-"? I "assume" its left as viewed from the top with barrels pointed away for the side screws and from the bottom with the barrels pointed away for the bottom screws. Am I correct?

[Richard Flanders]

Please don't tell me I brought up a point that no one has an answer for. I've always considered it to mean when the gun is upside down with bbls pointed away from me, but I'm not sure how that coincides with the side screws; are they marked also?(I haven't had any of these out of a gun in some time). If they are, then I suppose L and R would be determined with the gun upright. Whatever is the case, it needs to be clearly defined for folks reading the FAQ who are perhaps dismantling a Parker for the first time. And regardless of which is correct, I like Austins(?) method of having a small board with a floorplate tracing and holes to put the removed screws in. I've done the same, and it represents the gun upside down.

[Robin Lewis]

I added the following to the FAQ, I hope its correct?
The "left side" references the left side of the gun while looking at the bottom of the receiver with the barrels pointed away from you.

[Dean Romig]

Robin, I think the only way to have your 'L/R, upside-down, right-side-up, barrels pointing away from or to you' questions answered correctly is to ask the true disassembly/assembly experts - the Del Gregos. I would hope they would be generous enough to set us all straight on this. I know this is their business and trade secrets are often kept very close but it would be very beneficial to the Parker gun community to know this information.

[Jim Akins]

While not wishing to become embroiled in this issue, I believe it is bottom side up, barrels pointing away, screw with the l on the left. There is a 50% chance that I am wrong, but as a point of interest the screws on the side are also marked, also the wood screws are marked for location on a straight grip gun and skeleton buttplate.

[Eric Eis]

Jim I am pretty sure you are correct. Eric

[Mike McKinney]

Didn't Doug Turnbull discuss this when he took the Parker apart at the Vintagers? I don't recall if he talked about the specific sides, but he did talk about the marks.

[Mark Landskov]

I may be way out in left field with this, but, we know which barrel is the right and which is the left. Wouldn't it make sense to identify screws with their location in relation to each barrel? Sears and hammers are labeled that way, why not the screws.

[Kurt Densmore]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but of the dozen or so that I have taken apart (from the 1890's to the mid 1920 mfg dates) the trigger plate screw with a single line filed into the threaded end has gone into the hole on the right side the the gun. While the gun is upside down and the butt plate is pointing at my belly. Left side of the gun if you are shooting it....

If nobody else can confirm this then I must be going insane...
...probably not far from it, seeing as the Remington model 12 firing pin that I just got from Numrich's is not a drop in piece. I have to file out the notch for one of the pins that holds it in place.........who would have thought ??!! Cripe, it may need more filing before it will work...

Kurt

[Richard Flanders]

Kurt: you are verifying what most of us have said already, that the right left is actually on the left with the gun is left on it's back, which is the right way to figure out which left is right, and that leaves us with nothing left to say about the right way to do this except that the right left is actually on the right side of the gun and that whatever is not on the left side must be on the right side......right??. Thanks....

[Jim Williams]

Hello all. I'm surprised that my little post on screw identification caused such controversy! Sorry I haven't been back sooner to provide the answer. But, since I wrote the copy that Robin wants to put into the FAQs, I'll provide the answer as it relates to what I wrote. The answer is - don't overthink it. Conventions have been established. A gun (or almost anything else) has but ONE left side and ONE right. The right barrel does not become the left when you invert the gun. It is still the right, even though it appears on your left when the gun is inverted. Therefore, my reference to right screws means those found on the same side of the gun as the ACTUAL right barrel, regardless of how the gun is oriented at the time. Ditto for the left screws and ACTUAL left barrel. Really simple.

I'm glad Richard brought the question up though, because if one person was wondering, then certainly others were. In fact, I have to remind myself when putting the floorplate screws in that the left screw goes in the hole on the "right" as I am viewing it (inverted).

Also, I see that I have made a mistake on the "+" marking. I have only run across it on guns with three floorplate screws of equal length. As I stated before, the "-" will still be the left, but the "+" on the 00-frame I just checked is the rear one that you can see partially obscured by the triggerguard bow. The right screw is unmarked. This makes more sense, because it follows the convention previously established with other guns that have the longer screw (i.e. "-" on the left and nothing on the right). The "+" is only needed when all screws are of equal length. Memory is faulty, but I'm trying to remember if I've actually seen a "+" mark on right screws elsewhere on the guns, but I can't really say that I have, so I will have to correct multiple portions of my original post.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure whether the three equal-length floorplate screws are a feature of later guns, or just 00-frames. This is the only 00-frame gun I've had apart, and coincidentally the only post-1922 gun I've worked on recently. The short (equal-length to the front two) screw could be required on the 00-frame, but I somehow doubt this. My guess is that it has more to do with era of manufacture. I'm pretty sure I've seen three short (equal-length) screws on other 20s-era guns of larger size. Removal of this rear screw from a larger frame gun, circa late-20s, could help provide additional data, but I don't have access to one right now.

So Robin, to make the FAQ entry, I'd clarify it by saying the left screws ("left" meaning the actual left side of the gun, or in other words, on the same side as the left barrel) carry the "-" mark, and the right screws are unmarked. On floorplates the same convention applies, but where two of the three are unmarked, the longer one goes to the rear/center and the shorter one is the right. On floorplates with three screws of equal length, the rear/center one carries the "+" mark, and the right is unmarked as it is on other guns.

Finally, knowing the Parker mantra (never say never), it wouldn't surprise me to find that someone somewhere has a gun that defies the convention that I've noted on all the guns I've had apart.

I have edited my previous post to reflect the above corrections.

Jim

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks Jim,

I put the FAQ up and I hope its clear and accurate. I don't know how I got so turned around but I guess it happens.

These exercises make the FAQ web page better. I'm always on the lookout for information like this that can help us later and pulling several posts into one FAQ is a good place to put it so its not lost.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Kurt: you are verifying what most of us have said already, that the right left is actually on the left with the gun left on it's back, which is the right way to figure out which left is right, and that leaves us with nothing left to say about the right way to do this except that the right left is actually on the right side of the gun and that whatever is not on the left side must be on the right side......right??. Thanks....
:eek::rotf::nono:

[Jack Cronkhite]

Being a bit nit picky here. The term used in the FAQ to describe the forward (muzzle) end of the floor plate could lead to a bit of confusion. Doll's head is normally associated with a rib extension that fits into the receiver.

Doll's Head - A rib extension on a break-open gun, ending in a circular or semi-circular shape in plan (resembling the head of a doll), mating into a similarly-shaped recess in the top of the receiver, designed to resist the tendency of the barrels to pull away from the standing breech when firing. Because an action's centerpoint of flexing when firing is at the base of the standing breech, not at the hingepin, a passive doll's head extension makes an effective extra fastener, even without additional mechanical locks operated by the opening lever.

Here is the link (http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#DA). A great guide to gun terminology with many photos as well.
Cheers,
Jack

[Dean Romig]

On the Parker hammerless guns I've always referred to that end of the floorplate as the "doll's head of the floorplate".

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks, but in the final FAQ that I put on the web, I caught this and changed the wording. It looks somewhat different than the post I made a day or so ago in this thread. It obviously took a while to distill all this input and wade through the right - left problem.:rolleyes:

When I was in the Navy and force to march in boot camp, right and left was in issue then too.:whistle:

[Dave Suponski]

Really?.....

[Jack Cronkhite]

Had a look at two dismantled VH's. The left side screws bearing the "-" mark include:
Cocking Crank Pin Stop Screw
Hammer Screw
Hammer fastening screw
Floor Plate screw (front)

The corresponding right side screws are not marked.

Both have the longer rear floor plate screw, so there is no need for a "+" mark. I have had three apart and have not seen a "+" mark on any of them. All have had the longer rear floor plate screw.

Cheers,
Jack

[Jack Cronkhite]

When I was in the Navy and forced to march in boot camp, right and left was in issue then too.:whistle:

Good to see you are "in step" here.

Cheers,
Jack

[Jim Williams]

Had a look at two dismantled VH's. The left side screws bearing the "-" mark include:
Cocking Crank Pin Stop Screw
Hammer Screw
Hammer fastening screw
Floor Plate screw (front)

The corresponding right side screws are not marked.

Both have the longer rear floor plate screw, so there is no need for a "+" mark. I have had three apart and have not seen a "+" mark on any of them. All have had the longer rear floor plate screw.

Cheers,
Jack

Jack, what year is the newest of the three?

Jim

[Jack Cronkhite]

150146 (first I took apart with a lot of issues - all gone now) 1909
This is the gun that got me deeply into PGCA forums
145522 (family gun that is now a very good paper weight) 1907
This is the gun that made me find PGCA
108603 (affectionately known as "second chance gun") 1902
This is the gun with lots of pictures in my albums in bits and pieces

Last two are still in pieces. I suffer from way too many things on the go and next to nothing finalized. My good wife occasionally suggests that one thing should get done. Those are red letter days because I actually finish something. She has not suggested yet that I finish the guns, just things like the garage door not working, all sorts of audio/video hookups that she wants so old stuff can become reborn as digital. She has a grand music collection and I know there cannot be enough time left to hear each track once. And then there's the broken china doll and the list goes on. but I do get some gun time and she feels it is most of the time. I'm sure I'm not the only one here with such a dilemma.

Cheers,
Jack

[Mark Landskov]

Jack, don't feel like you are alone. I turned 50 in August and figured I had a few years of working left. Well, my hands finally said 'no more' and I am no longer working. When the legal mess(es) are over with, I will call it my 2nd retirement. I am bored, to say the least, and find myself piddling with projects in my basement shop. I just picked up a Model 1871 Mauser carbine that will be a fun shooter. It was made in 1877, the same as my 12 gauge Lifter. I should be able to keep myself busy with this and that, but I am finding it hard to work up the ambition to attack household stuff when I have a firearm or cartridges that need my attention more! I hope this retirement thing gets better. There are almost 10 months 'til the Ruffed Grouse can be pursued. Cheers!

[Kurt Densmore]

:bigbye: As Right as Rain.......

Kurt: you are verifying what most of us have said already, that the right left is actually on the left with the gun is left on it's back, which is the right way to figure out which left is right, and that leaves us with nothing left to say about the right way to do this except that the right left is actually on the right side of the gun and that whatever is not on the left side must be on the right side......right??. Thanks....

[Jim Williams]

Yes, Jack. That dilemma somehow seems very familiar.

Regarding my question and your answer, I was just trying to find a mid-20s gun or later with the longer screw in the rear. I restored a 2-frame VH 12 for a friend of mine from that era, but I can't for the life of me remember if it had the longer screw. The owner was present for most of the work, as he wanted to learn, and did some of the work himself with me advising. I'll ask him if he remembers, but I kind of doubt he will either. The majority of the guns I've worked on are earlier, and all of mine are.

Another good data point would be an earlier 00-frame with a longer rear screw. I'm trying to determine if the equal-length rear screw is a "later gun" thing, or a 00-frame thing. Thanks for the info.

Jim

[Mike Shepherd]

There must be sheet copper of shim-like thicknesses available that could be used for this, something in the .002" range.

When I read this I thought of the feeler gauges they sell at auto parts store. You get 20 or 30 different sizes and the incrments can be as small as 0.5/1000th or one half of a thousanth or 0.0005". Joe Wood made some shims for the pins of my off face shotguns out of the feeler gauges. Of course they are steel. But as someone pointed out there may be a galvanic corrosion problem if copper is used. But in my opinion unlikely.

Best,

Mike

[Paul Harm]

To index a screw, you can hand tighten it in a electric handdrill and useing a small file on the under side of the head take a little off. Try it, and take a little more off if it isn't right. I've never noticed the head sitting lower than the surface around it by useing this method. Paul

[Jack Cronkhite]

...as someone pointed out there may be a galvanic corrosion problem if copper is used. Mike

The joys of galvanic reactions. This is not gun related but one of those things that shows the truth of "Murphy's Law". The house we have was built in 1983. We purchased it in 1996. The basement became my "play" area. About 8 years ago, I was down there and thought I could hear water running when I knew nothing else was going on in the house that should make me think that. I started to investigate. I eventually found a covered sump hole and had a look inside. I could hear the water running there but not see it. The hole is only about 8" deep with a sand base. I moved a bit of sand and found the water supply line to the house was in there, as well as an outlet. I kept moving sand along the water line (copper) and encountered a 2" common nail with head resting against the line. I also saw water finally. I lifted the nail and suddenly had a lot of water spraying me and anything within ten feet. Dropped a bucket over the line, called the water utility, had the main shut off, cut the line and spliced in some new copper. Water back on and no problems since but that leak had been going on for years and created an underground mudhole. As that has dried out over the last 8 years, the cement floor has heaved and cracked and the teleposts (jackposts) have needed adjustment to re-level the whole house. All for the sake of a nail that ended up resting against the copper line.

Based on that, maybe copper shims for gun purposes would only see the shim needing replacement in a few decades. I'll leave that to the metalurgists to verify.

Cheers,
Jack

[Paul Harm]

Shims are not the right way to do it. You wouldn't take it to a gunsmith and expect him to fix it that way. Take the screw out and lose the shim and you're back where you started from. It's very easy to take a bit off the under side of the head. Paul

[John Dallas]

I think you've got it bass-akwards. The shim is intended to raise a screw which is below the surface.
Taking more stock off the back side of the screw will sink it further below.

For the amateur - use a non-copper shim

[Chris Travinski]

Jack, You should be glad it was a the well line and not the copper line off of the oil tank:eek: