Model 70

[Mills Morrison]

Just bought this Winchester Pre 64 Model 70 in 375 H&H. Hope to take some big game in Africa this summer with it.

[charlie cleveland]

mills i hope you get to use this new rifle a whole lot....charlie

[Rick Losey]

very nice Mills

great gun

[Mills Morrison]

Thanks guys!

[Harry Collins]

Mills,

A load you can shoot all day in the 375 H&H is 235 grain Speer SP, 64 grains IMR 4064 @ 2300 fps. The beauty of the 375 is it will shoot all four bullet weights, 235, 270, 300 & 350 gr, on the same vertical. The factory 235 grain load @ 2800 fps plus will wear on you while plinking, but the above load @ 2300 fps is quite tame in comparison. It makes a dandy deer load and won't bruise the meat.

Harry

[Rich Anderson]

Congrats Mills. If you PM me the serial number I can tell you when it was made.
Harry I wrote down your load info and will give it a try.

[Harry Collins]

Rich, That load is from Finn Aagaard. It worked like a dream in my Remington. Harry

[Rich Anderson]

I'm using a Sierra bullet of I think 200 or 225 gr I don't recall and have the gout so I'm not going to walk to the basement to look :rotf: and IMR 4227 in the range of 34 gr. It's like shooting a 243 in my Pre 64 M70. I'm going to use the same bullet in the 38-55 when I start working up a load for that.

I don't see to many Speer bullets for sale any more but will look for some.

[Dennis E. Jones]

I'm jealous!!!

I always wanted a pre 64 in 375. I have some mdl. 70's but not in 375 YET. I do have a 375 I put together on a P14 Enfield years ago. I didn't take it to Africa, I used a heavy double instead. I built the 375 for hunting Elk as they can be tough and I want to put them down ASAP, and by golly it does work. I don't bother with light loads, I've shot Nosler Partition's from the get-go and haven't seen any reason to change.

Enjoy your rifle, do take it to Africa and post pictures.

[keavin nelson]

Very nice Mills, are you going to scope it, or do iron? Plains game or the big stuff??

[Mills Morrison]

I am planning to get a scope

[Phillip Carr]

Mills that’s a great looking rifle. Love those pre64’s. The 375 gives you a lot options for hand loading.
Look into taking a shotgun if you haven’t already planned on doing this. I was talking to a friend today that I got my 458 mag. from. He said that the bird hunting was incredible.
He took a Parker VH 16 when he went but that was 20 years ago.

[Harry Collins]

Papa and Uncle Bill took their Parker 12's to Africa in 1956. Bill's was an AH with Damascus barrels. Papa's was a VH Remington Parker. They shot hell out of Francolin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGzc8Dot0Fg

[Mills Morrison]

Shot it some this weekend. Need to shoot it some more to get the hang of it.

[Mike Poindexter]

Mills, the shoulders on those cases don't look like any 375 H&H that I've seen. You sure somebody didn't cut the chamber to 378 Wby or some other wildcat?

[G. Wells]

Not a 375 H&H chamber. More likely a 375 Ackley Improved as it doesn't appear to have the double radiused shoulder of the 375 Weatherby, although that's difficult to tell from the picture. Not a 378 Weatherby as that is a larger case.

[edgarspencer]

Positive that's a Ackley Improved .375 Mag.

[William Davis]

Disclaimer no actual experience with the H&H but. I bet you could work up a plinking load with Meisters 245 g cast bullet and 4227. There may be some cast plinking loads in one of my old manuals will look today.

I use that bullet in a 38/55 at 1400 FPS. Recoils like a .22 and accurate to 200 yards. Our gun club has a African Hunt outfitter and members that have made the trip. They all say best do a lot of work with reduced loads before the trip.

We ran the running target course at Vintage Cup several years. Rules require full power & it takes a lot out of the shooters. Have shot the runners with .22, Pistol caliber Levers and down loaded 30/06. It’s just like shotgun shooting takes a while to get a feel for the gun. Couple of hundred shots practice it’s remarkable how you can hit crossers chargers and turners.

William

[Rich Anderson]

Mills take a factory case and compare it to a fired one. I agree with the others that it looks to be whats called an improved 375. P.O. Ackley did this to a number of cartridges. I once had a 257 Roberts AI and have a 7X57 AI. You can shoot factory 375 ammo and the shoulder will be fire formed to the improved version. This modification eliminates any collector value however.

I have a great plinking load using a 200 gr bullet and 4227 for my Pre 64 M70. It will flatten a deer

[William Davis]

Mattens “Handloading Ammunition” 1926 has a 1170 FPS & 1500 FPS loads Shapes “ Complete Guide to Handloading” 1937 has 1300 FPS loads.

Both specify powder that’s no longer produced SR #80 C.O.B. Advice is good on 4227. Charge weights same as SR 80.

On the Mestier Bullet. They come in two diameters right one depends on your bore. That case sure looks like a Ackley. CH4D can supply dies for it but probably easier to load it with neck sizers instead of F/L I had troubles getting F/L for a 25 Kraig, CH4D switched me to universal neck size dies. Lot better and no case fit issues.

William

[Harry Collins]

Mills,

Going back to scopes for an African hunt I think this is the one I would choose with a duplex reticle: https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/mark-6-1-6x20mm or https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/vx-freedom-1-5-4x20

[edgarspencer]

Mills, If I may offer a thought; If you were led to believe the gun was a .375 H&H Magnum, if it were me, I would return the gun. However popular some non-factory wildcats are, their appeal is spotty, and not one actively sought out by the general shooter.

The other thing to consider is hand loading, and whether you want to invest the time, effort and expense in loading so few cartridges.
Also, consider that some air lines, especially overseas, have restrictions on traveling with ammo. You may find yourself in the ideal location, and your ammo isn't available.

Undisclosed modifications aren't always a deal breaker. I bought a BRNO hornet to rekindle a childhood memory, only to find out it had been modified to Harvey Kilborn's version, the .22 K Hornet. It happens to be an easy one to reload, and dies, and brass were readily available, and it's everything a Hornet was, and more.

[Mills Morrison]

It is stamped modified to magnum or something like that.

[Mills Morrison]

Aw shucks . . . guess I will have to get another one so I have one with collector value. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[edgarspencer]

Aw shucks . . . guess I will have to get another one so I have one with collector value. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now you're thinking like me.

[Mills Morrison]

Julia is coming over to go to lunch with me. Little does she know I am going to detour us to Palmetto State Armory where we can look at scopes. I think picking some up and trying them out is the best idea . . . with all the knowledge gained here!

[Brett Hoop]

Think eye relief. The Leupold 2.5 x8 and the 1.5 x 5 suit. Those models offer the eye relief, that some Euros don't. And are of a lighter weight. Put them in Talley (low) QR rings with levers. Talley offers several bases, and if you tell Gary what scope you are mounting he will advise the correct front and rear so as to not cover up the magazine port fore or aft. The 2.5 X 8 will just fit. Talley has customer service second to none. And yes the Talley QR ring set up will return very close to zero. Thus allowing you to go to your open sights if needed.

[Mills Morrison]

Palmetto State Armory tried to sell me on a Vortex. They seemed like good scopes and I liked the ones with a wide range. Didn't buy though. Thought I would order online and save on taxes and also wonder why Vortex is not recommended too much by others

[Rich Anderson]

Vortex scopes are very nice and a lifetime warranty. Buy in NC break it in GA and any dealer in GA will exchange it. I have a Leopold 2.5x8 on my Pre64 M70 375 and it's perfect.

Post a picture of the stamping that says it's modified. Like I said before you can shoot factoey 375 ammo in a 375AI so finding ammo isn't going to be a problem.

[Mills Morrison]

That is what the guy said. He had two that were both 4-16x44. I liked the wide vision field both offered. I will get a picture when I can

[Rich Anderson]

IMHO you don't need ascope like that for a 375. You barely shoot over a 100 yards has been my experience in Africa. The 2.5X8 is IMHO again perfect.

[edgarspencer]

A agree with Rich, but if you want to scope it, most hunting situations you’ll find yourself will be with lower magnification. I have a 30mm Leopold European 1.5-4 on a Number One, in 9.3x74. I think it’s ideal.

[Rich Anderson]

My #1 375 has a Leupold VarI X III 1.5X5

[Mills Morrison]

Also see Vortex made in China. Got to be made in USA

Found a Leupold 3.5-10x40 on Midway USA and think I will try that.

[edgarspencer]

Like I said before you can shoot factoey 375 ammo in a 375AI so finding ammo isn't going to be a problem.

There's a difference between 'can' and 'should'. Fire forming brass is generally done with a reduced load, and using a soft lead bullet is recommended. Using factory ammo is OK in an emergency, But the Experts (George Nonte states it categorically) That using factory Magnum should be avoided because of the likelihood of gas blow-back. The greater difference in case and chamber, the greater the possibility. The same situation holds true if your intent isn't fire forming, but actually hunting, as there will be a significant drop in pressure, and ballistic accuracy. Not so much a problem poking holes in paper, but a charging Rhino may have a negative impact on your shorts.

[Rich Anderson]

I agree and as I hand load it usually isn't a problem. I have fired factory 7X57 ammo in my improved rifle without suffering any ill effects. I doubt Mills will become a hand loader. If he can return the gun based on it's non original cambering that would be his best option but I'll bet that ship has sailed.

[William Davis]

Rambling opinion worth what it cost.

I use high power scopes, on the target range mid day good light & stationary target. Anything else low power is the best choice. Particularly large animals that are 100 yards away and can run.Fixed 2 1/2 is my favorite & suit the vintage rifles I prefer, about perfect pre 64 big bore M70. Modern Bolt hi tec synthetic stock gun variable 1.5 to 4 may be even better.

Go Leupold nothing else even close.

On the improved case. I had K Hornet in a T/C single shot that was successful. My 25 Kraig on a CPA Stevens 44 1/2 reproduction has been difficult extracting, probably re-chambering to 25/35. If I was hunting dangerous game in hot and posable dirty conditions would want a tapered case and controlled feed rifle.

William

[Harry Collins]

40 years ago I had a 375 H&H with a Burris 4 power scope and quick detachable mounts. In practice the scope was used on game at some distance and it came off for close work. Burris was a great scope manufacturer half a century ago, but Leupold has the reputation today and great scope at a great price. Their VX3 1.5x5, is an ideal choice for the .375. It is the scope I use on my Ruger international 6.5x55 and 30-06 I had a Leupold 2 power on my 458. The best advice I can give is to contact your White Hunter and ask what he recommends. My advice is to take the rifle you have grown up with and use the bullets your WH has the most confidence in.

[Brett Hoop]

Mills

Another thing you should do, is check your hole spacing on the rear bridge it should be .435" ( that would be the case for the 375/300 H&H actions) likely they are 6-48 screws.

Sometimes we see these holes have been opened up for larger 8-40 screws on 375 and up.

[Rich Anderson]

This has been re chambered to 375 Magnum. Itg doesent say it's a H&H magnum. I wonder what it was originally chambered for.

[James L. Martin]

Some pre-64 M-70's were stamped. " 375 MAGNUM " instead of 375 H & H MAGNUM there is a photo of one in the model 70 book.

[Rich Anderson]

This was re chambered to 375 AI.

[John Dallas]

Are the shoulder angles on all AI calibers the same?

[Rich Anderson]

I believe so, I think they are 40 degrees

[William Davis]

Mills

If it’s Ackley & looks like it , I have his books, can copy the sections for you

William

[edgarspencer]

William, If you're referring to Ackley's HANDBOOK for Shooters and Reloaders, I posted his comments and data. See post #12

[Rich Anderson]

Reloading data for this is a moot point as Mills doesn't reload.

[Bill Murphy]

My early 25" straight taper .375 H&H Super Grade has "375 Magnum" stamped on the barrel. Could this #10150 be a first year gun? I'm not enough of a Model 70 guy to own Rule's book.

[Mills Morrison]

I appreciate all of the advice and honest opinions here. Long story short, the 375 is going down the road and at least one 30 06 is taking its place.

[Rich Anderson]

Bill your gun was made in 1937.

[Brett Hoop]

Mills

It's happened to a lot of us. It was a sign of the times, the Model 70 popularity and wildcatting /improved ballistic attempts if for ever so slight a gain.

One of the true assets of the 375H&H in the original shape/form of the case being that it lends itself to great feed. Same with the 300 H&H.
Good News, unmolested Pre -64, 375 H&H Mdl. 70 are out there, and they aren't as high as they once were.
While I suspect you are wanting a Pre -64 don't totally discount a New Haven produced Model 70 CRF in 375, they aren't bad guns. in fact I think they are better stocked for scope, and they have a gas check on the bolt that sits in the left side slot/rail. Just something to consider.

There is a problem with having a 375 H&H and a 30/06 both set up to suit. The problem being you start running out of excuses of need to buy more. Want never is very far off or long in coming.

[William Davis]

I am with Brett on a new Model 70. Much as I like vintage guns Africa trip another thing. Lot invested in the trip best have two of something that works well. 30/06 & 375 can back each other up if one is disabled or lost.

Another factor in Africa don’t take anything you worry about. Chance of damage or theft very high. Smile when customs officer takes your expensive pen better that protest. Advise received my first trip to Nigeria served me well 10 years working all over the continent.

I lost the bolt on a Remington 700 in JBerg. Thief pried the locked case partially open could not get the rifle, airline required bolt removal, bolt must have fallen out. Another African trip pair of Swarovski Binocs stolen from my hand baggage during inspection. Company travel insurance paid me back.

It’s a great place to visit low risk profile best way to travel.

William

[Rich Anderson]

Mills



There is a problem with having a 375 H&H and a 30/06 both set up to suit. The problem being you start running out of excuses of need to buy more. .

NEVER!!!

[Mills Morrison]

If all goes according to plan, I will trade the current 375 up to a real one. Then I have some Remington semi-autos which will likely go down the road for more M70s. My son Harry wants a 308

[Rich Anderson]

In a pre 64 M70 the fast majority of 308's were made in the FWT configuration as were the 243. To find a STD grade 308 will be difficult and expensive. I do know where a nice 308 FWT is if your interested.

If your considering a 30-06 the 308 is redundant and visa versa. With the proper bullet and it's placement there isn't an animal that can tell the difference. I prefer the 308 over the 06.

[William Davis]

I am a big fan of the 7/08. In a Winchester same ballistic advantages in the 270 lot of M70 270s out there . Having said that sold all my CF Bolt guns except a M1903 30/06 arsenal built sporter and a 721 Remington .222. The 03 is accurate and absolutely reliable. 721 accurate and finicky feeder

William

[Brett Hoop]

Mills
This may have been brought up earlier in this thread.

I don't recall if you may have mentioned having it or not, but if you don't, I think you'd be served by obtaining a copy of The Rifleman's Rifle by Roger G. Rule. Think of it as the TPS for the Winchester Model 70 1936-1963.

[Mills Morrison]

Yes. That book is on my list

[William Davis]

Good books essential when buying

William