Vintage shells ?

[Frank Srebro]

My shooting gang had breakfast today and one of my buds came with the box of shells shown here.

From what I can see they are 12 gauge 1-1/8 ounce loads of chilled 7's in UMC "New Club" hulls and are loaded with 3-1/2 drams of black powder.

One of my vintage references shows that New Club hulls (empties) were normally used for black powder loads, available in 2-3/4" and 3" length and used the UMC #2 primer.

This is not a For Sale advert. Anyone know what this box might be worth to a collector?

[Craig Larter]

Frank send an email to Eric Ward at Wards Auction eric@wardscollectibles.com , he will give you a estimate. Obscure Company boxes with a plain label bring $500. to $1000. but that is my guess, Eric will give you a good number. Craig

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Craig, I will do that.

[Dave Noreen]

I've got four reference books on shotgun shell boxes and Kugler & Wollens don't show up in any of them. You might try a post on the International Ammunition Association site --

http://cartridgecollectors.org/

[Frank Srebro]

Thank you Dave. I registered for the Int. Ammo forum and just then received a reply from Eric Ward who wrote in effect, the shells are very unusual and he hasn't seen them before, he checked a few books and couldn't find anything on the maker. He also thought they'd fetch $500. to $1000. at auction and "could bring more". I'll pass that info to my shooting friend. :)

[Dave Noreen]

The UMC NEW CLUB shell first appears in UMC's 1892 price list. By 1901, UMC only offered the NEW CLUB as a loaded shell and the same case sold as an NPE was head-stamped UNION.

80283

80284

[Frank Srebro]

UMC NEW CLUB shell first appears in UMC's 1892 price list. By 1901, UMC only offered the NEW CLUB as a loaded shell and the same case sold as an NPE was head-stamped UNION.



Dave, thanks again for your help but something doesn't jive with my data, i.e., in August 1915 the E. K. Tryon Company of Phila was advertising UMC "New Club" empty paper shells at $9.00 per 1000 in 2-3/4 and 3" long hulls. Tryon's catalogue illustration of the empties definitely shows U.M.C. Co. and NEW CLUB on the headstamp.

[Dave Noreen]

Between the October 1908 and the June 1909 UMC price lists UMC dropped the unique head-stamps for their NPEs and began stamping "HAND LOADED" on the paper tube. From the 1910 Catalogue --

80286

In 1911, Marcellus Hartley Dodge combined his arms and ammunition companies as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. So, from 1911 on the head-stamp became Remington-UMC --

80285

By the 1915-16 Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogue the head-stamp had become REM-UMC --

80287

E.K. Tryon either hadn't updated their pictures or they were attempting to move some old stock. Also, of note, circa 1901 UMC went to the eight-pointed star around the primer pocket on both their NEW CLUB and UNION black powder hulls, another clue for the shells in question being from the 1890s.

[Milton C Starr]

Between the October 1908 and the June 1909 UMC price lists UMC dropped the unique head-stamps for their NPEs and began stamping "HAND LOADED" on the paper tube. From the 1910 Catalogue --

80286

In 1911, Marcellus Hartley Dodge combined his arms and ammunition companies as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. So, from 1911 on the head-stamp became Remington-UMC --

80285

By the 1915-16 Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogue the head-stamp had become REM-UMC --

80287

E.K. Tryon either hadn't updated their pictures or they were attempting to move some old stock. Also, of note, circa 1901 UMC went to the eight-pointed star around the primer pocket on both their NEW CLUB and UNION black powder hulls, another clue for the shells in question being from the 1890s.

Ive never seen a 10 ga 3 1/4 American gun but theres a Clabrough and Johnstone 10 ga 3 1/4" double on GI . I was wondering if that was a oddball chamber length or not . Seems someone was making them .

[charlie cleveland]

probably a brass hull i have a coupla that measure close to 3 1/4 inches...got a brass parker brothers 12 ga that measures 4 inches...wish i had the gun that was built for this shell...charlie

[Milton C Starr]

probably a brass hull i have a coupla that measure close to 3 1/4 inches...got a brass parker brothers 12 ga that measures 4 inches...wish i had the gun that was built for this shell...charlie

If im not mistaken there is a length restriction on shells for water fowling just like the gauge restriction .

I have seen old vintage catalogs that showed 8 and 10 ga shells in just about every length up to 4" . It was probably when they used all brass shells like you said . Seems like back then you could pretty much get anything you wanted custom ordered .

I bet the 12 ga 4" would have a horribly long shot string .

[Rick Losey]

back then- longer shells were meant for longer wad columns to improve the pattern, not to stuff more lead in there - that is a modern phenomenon

[Daryl Corona]

There is no shell length restriction only nothing larger than a 10gauge holding more than 3 shells. I never understood the need for the 3.5" shell. I've actually gone away from the 3" shells and found the 2.75" loadings do very nicely. Your mileage may vary.

[Milton C Starr]

There is no shell length restriction only nothing larger than a 10gauge holding more than 3 shells. I never understood the need for the 3.5" shell. I've actually gone away from the 3" shells and found the 2.75" loadings do very nicely. Your mileage may vary.

There used to be a law perhaps it was a state law ? shells couldnt be over 3.5".
Now though on the DNR website I couldnt find any regulations for gauge restrictions . Like for turkeys it used to be nothing smaller than 20 ga well for any large game hunting . Now none of those rules seem to be on their website .

12 ga 3.5" shells have a terrible shot string , there was a video of a fellow testing out different 12 ga 3.5" loads and the shot string was about 12ft long IIRC but I dont remember what range their moving target was .

[Milton C Starr]

back then- longer shells were meant for longer wad columns to improve the pattern, not to stuff more lead in there - that is a modern phenomenon

I do remember reading about using more wading in longer cases to cushion the impact from firing to lessen the deformation of lead shot .

[Dave Noreen]

I have found several of the Fox Gun Co., Balto., Md., U.S.A. guns which were only made in 1898 and 1899 to have 12-gauge 3 1/4 inch chambers.

[Bill Murphy]

Shot string is way less important than ammunition manufacturers make it sound. I'll let someone else figure out how far a goose flies while a 12 foot shot string arrives. A bird flying at anything less than a 90 degree angle from the shooter can forget about a long shot string saving his life, especially when the proper ammunition is selected. Read Bob Brister, Shotgunning The Art and the Science, chapter 23. He tells it all.