Any idea what the pressue is like on new Herters Target loads?

[John Nagel]

Hi everyone. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about the new herters loads shown here:

https://www.cabelas.com/product/HERTERS-TARGET-SHOTSHELLS-CASE/3450421.uts

Wondering if they would be low pressure enough to shoot through old guns with 2.75 chambers... looks like in 12 ga they are between 1145 and 1180 fps..

Appreciate any input!

[Jeff Kuss]

I have only shot the new Herter's in 410. They don't seem to have as much
recoil as the old Herter's shells did.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

You may have to send them out to be tested if you really want to know. I believe Precision Reloading and Tom Armbruster will do that.
I really liked the previous Herters LOw Recoil 1 oz 12 ga load at 1060 fps--I shot them in my Fox Sterlingworth pin gun, but hesitated to use them in Damascus
hammer 12's because I couldn't find the pressure specs. Still have a case of them. I loaded up a couple hundred low pressure 7/8 oz loads for them this week. BUT if your guns are fluid steel, I would shoot those new herters.

[John Nagel]

You may have to send them out to be tested if you really want to know. I believe Precision Reloading and Tom Armbruster will do that.
I really liked the previous Herters LOw Recoil 1 oz 12 ga load at 1060 fps--I shot them in my Fox Sterlingworth pin gun, but hesitated to use them in Damascus
hammer 12's because I couldn't find the pressure specs. Still have a case of them. I loaded up a couple hundred low pressure 7/8 oz loads for them this week. BUT if your guns are fluid steel, I would shoot those new herters.

Any idea what that pressure test would cost?

[John Nagel]

Also any idea why the 1 1/8 oz load has lower fps vs the 1 oz load? Could it be that the heavier load actually has less pressure or would it only be less velocity?

[John Davis]

Factory 12 gauge, 2 3/4 dram equivalent, 1 1/8 oz. loads are listed as 1145 fps. The 1 oz. loads are listed as 1180 fps. Both are considered Light Target Loads. The fps for both loads is an average. Some brands deviate more than others. I have no idea what the PSI of the various brands are but I regularly shoot the 1 1/8 oz. shells in my Parker SBT's for singles trap and my GHE for the first target in doubles trap. Remington STS and Gun Club, Winchester AA, Federal Grands and Estates.

[John Davis]

I will add that the 1 oz. loads seem to have less felt recoil than the 1 1/8 oz. loads with the same 2 3/4 dram equiv. So will some times go to the 1 oz. load for my first target in doubles.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I don't know the cost, but don't think it is too much.
The pressures generated are not directly proportional to the weight of the load.
Recoil can be calculated knowing the weight of the gun, payload weight, and speed of payload.
Pressure depends on the burn rate of powder used, the hull itself, and wad used--I don't think their is any mathematical formula to calculate pressure, and it must be measured directly. At least that is what I believe to be true, not a physicist or engineer, however.

[John Nagel]

I don't know the cost, but don't think it is too much.
The pressures generated are not directly proportional to the weight of the load.
Recoil can be calculated knowing the weight of the gun, payload weight, and speed of payload.
Pressure depends on the burn rate of powder used, the hull itself, and wad used--I don't think their is any mathematical formula to calculate pressure, and it must be measured directly. At least that is what I believe to be true, not a physicist or engineer, however.

I noticed on precision site that they will not test factory loads. I don’t understand why that would be.. I’d be very happy to pay thier $25 fee to test 5 shells..

[John Davis]

When you send Tom your reloads to test, you detail for him what powder, primer, hull, size shot and wad you used, plus grains and payload. With factory loads Tom doesn't know all the detailed components used and factory loads can vary from time to time. With factory loads the fps may average the same but if components vary, the pressures can change. As long as pressures fall within the standards, manufacturers don't care.

[Brian Dudley]

Other than RST, who caters to the vintage gun/low pressure crowd, no ammunition manufacturer is going to tell you want the chamber pressures of a given load is.
They will only tell you that the loads are according to SAAMI spec. Which is a max pressure for a given gauge.
Likely because this leaves them open to the possibility of component changes which could change pressures along the way.

[Jerry Parise]

I once gave Federal a call in order to ask what the PSI was on their Estate Super Sport Competition loads in 1 1/8 oz. 1145 FPS. However, I did not receive any definitive answer. Just that they were right around 10,000 PSI. I seem to remember that Tom Roster in an article once said that there was no correlation between lower feet per second loads and low chamber pressure in modern loads. I agree whole heartedly that RST is the only manufacturer that really caters to the vintage shooter who definitively needs low PSI loads.

[Brian Dudley]

I once gave Federal a call in order to ask what the PSI was on their Estate Super Sport Competition loads in 1 1/8 oz. 1145 FPS. However, I did not receive any definitive answer. Just that they were right around 10,000 PSI. I seem to remember that Tom Roster in an article once said that there was no correlation between lower feet per second loads and low chamber pressure in modern loads. I agree whole heartedly that RST is the only manufacturer that really caters to the vintage shooter who definitively needs low PSI loads.


Exactly right on the fps and pressure correlation. Just look at reload data and you will see it is all over the map.

[Daniel Carter]

One thing to keep in mind when discussing the big ammo manufacturers is they must make there product with the auto loader in mind. If it does not have the pressure to operate those guns they lose a large segment of the market. So I assume the pressure is up there until proven other wise.

[Drew Hause]

The pressures of the discontinued Herter's shells (I think by Cheddite) were surprisingly just below the SAAMI recommended max. of 11,500 psi; likely loaded with very fast burning powder.
As stated, only independent pressure testing can give the pressures of the new Herter's.
Tom Armbrust's contact is:
1108 W. May Ave.
McHenry, IL 60051
815-451-6649
Payment is by check only, and the shells must not be shipped by USPS.
If you send shells, please share the results with us!

A few factory load pressures are at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

[John Davis]

So Drew, if I'm reading that correctly it looks like between 1900 and WW1 they were shooting field and target loads generating pressures between 8,000 and 11,500 psi?

[Drew Hause]

That is correct John. But some fellas pushed the envelope a bit :eek:

Kansas City, Oct. 23 1897
A remarkable exhibition of live pigeon shooting was given at Exposition Park, this city, yesterday afternoon, when Fred Gilbert, of Spirit Lake, Ia., and J.A.R. Elliott, of this city, met in a match at 100 live birds for $100 a side and the DuPont trophy, which Elliott won from C.W. Budd a few weeks ago with the score of 99 out of 100. The match was for the DuPont trophy at 100 live birds each man, 30 yards rise. Gilbert and Elliott tied at 97, then Gilbert won 25 to 24 in the shoot-off.
Gilbert used an L.C. Smith hammerless gun, 3 3/4 drams DuPont smokeless powder, 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 chilled shot in Winchester Leader shells.
J.A.R. Elliott used a (7 1/2#) Winchester repeating shotgun, 3 1/2 drams “E.C.” powder, 1 1/4 No. 7 1/2 and 6 chilled shot; Leader shells, loaded by Winchester.

1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 11,500 psi; the modern SAAMI max. for 2 3/4" 12g
and 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1330 fps) in an 8# shotgun = 29 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200, (3 Dram) 7.5 # shotgun = 23 ft/lbs of free recoil

[John Davis]

Gilbert was shooting a hot load! And it paid off.

[Drew Hause]

Independent testing of Cheddite for Herters 16g “Select Field Dove and Quail” 1 oz. at 1165 fps showed pressure averaging 12,500 psi with one at 13,400 psi.

[Drew Hause]

Nah. Now THIS is a hot load :shock:

October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
Dr. J.L. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell, and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.

(1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dram “Schultze” was about 12,000 psi. “Schultze” pressures were somewhat lower than “E.C.”)

He did not compete in the 1896 GAH at Live Birds, but held the “E.C.” Cup that year; his gun was not listed
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/47243/rec/7
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/46882/rec/5

He used a Cashmore with 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DuPont Bulk at the 1897 GAH at Live Birds, and was one of 5 competitors with 24 kills
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/45852/rec/4
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/46498/rec/3

[John Davis]

I'm feeling pretty good about those light target loads.

[Rich Anderson]

Shooting RST in any vintage double gun is cheap by comparison to the cost of the gun and possible damage. Recoil is not an indicator of pressure.

[John Davis]

I'm curious. Does anyone know what the kind of pressures factory shells were generating in the mid 1930's?

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I liked those herter 16 ga loads, and still have several cases of them, BUT, I will only shoot them in my NID 4E, Utica 16 Sterlingworth, and Fair Rizzini 16 guns.Then I happily cut them down to 2 1/2' and load low pressure 7/8 oz loads. I've given a bunch of hulls away, and still have close to 1000 that need cut down.
I'd be ok shooting them thru my steel barreled Parker 16's also for hunting, but not for the extended shooting of sporting clays--too much recoil for me, my O frame DHE 16 only weighs 6 LBS.

[Drew Hause]

John: A DuPont Ballistic Table was published in Parker Brothers' “The Small Bore Shotgun” c. 1920 http://parkerguns.org/pages/PDF%20Documents/Small%20Bore%20Shotgun.pdf
It is clear that this table converts Long Tons to PSI simply by multiplying by 2240; NOT using Burrard’s conversion
p. 7 “All powders referred to on these pages are of the bulk nitro"
Numbers require adding 10 - 14% for modern piezo transducer pressures.
12 gauge
3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. = 8,110 psi
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. = 8,960 psi
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. = 9,900 psi
16 gauge
2 3/4 Dr. Eq. 7/8 oz. = 7,035 psi
3 Dr. Eq. 1 oz. = 8,980 psi
20 gauge
2 1/2 Dr. Eq. 7/8 oz. = 12,655 psi
DENSE Smokeless Powder pressures would be 1000 - 1,500 psi higher

The 1933 edition of “Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe, ballistic engineer of the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the pressure for 1 1/4 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DuPont Bulk Smokeless at 9,600 psi by LUP.

Of course everything changed with Western's boomers

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. DuPont Oval Powder = 11 gr. / Dr. Eq.); at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps average over 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
3” Super-X “Record” with 1 3/8 oz. at MV 1400 fps with 4.25 Tons psi = 13,160 psi
Super-X 10g 1 5/8 oz “about 4 1/2 Drams” No. 2 shot Full choke 32” barrel, average velocity over 40 yds. 1030 fps; “up to 13,000 psi” by crushers = about 14,500 psi by modern transducers.
Super-X 3 1/2” 10 Gauge Magnum in Ithaca Gun Co. with bore .795” with 2 oz. shot; pressures “about 5 Tons” = 15,680 psi

[Drew Hause]

A Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve dated June 10, 1929, is in the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West
http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/WRAC/id/8149/rec/107

Maximum Standard Factory Loads 1” peak pressures
12g 3” ‘Record’ 1 3/8 oz. shot presumed 1275 – 1295 fps = 13,250 psi
12g 2 3/4” ‘Field’ 1 1/4 oz. shot presumed 1330 fps = 10,750 psi
12g 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 28 gr. (3 1/2 Dr. Eq.) Ballistite = 12,900 psi
12g 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DuPont Bulk = 10,000 psi

[charlie cleveland]

those 10 ga magnums are way up yonder...the 3 inch loads aint far behind...them duck loads in 2 3/4 are not far behind...its a wonder that any of these old guns got a stock left on them... i have shot my share of these old 1 1/4 ounce loads...charlie

[John Davis]

Charlie, maybe they're a little tougher than we give them credit for.