A 10 gauge for Charlie

[Milton C Starr]

Charlie what do you think about a 14lb 10 gauge double ?
I seen this last year and wanted to get it because a 14lb 10 gauge has to have some crazy thick barrels on it . The seller was asking 5,000$ a few months ago but has since come way down .

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/851801947

[Mills Morrison]

Holy cow!

[Milton C Starr]

Holy cow!

I do believe those barrels are thick enough to be reamed out to make a modern 8 ga :shock: .

There was a article I think in dogs and doubles ? , where someone was doing that on heavy spanish 10 ga sxs's .

I was just thinking how soft that thing would shoot with RSTs 2 7/8 loads haha .

[Rick Losey]

with the steel used in some of the 50's/60's Spanish guns- can't be thick enough

[Milton C Starr]

with the steel used in some of the 50's/60's Spanish guns- can't be thick enough

Thats the thing I dont know how much the quality varied with all the different 10 ga Spanish doubles of the 60s .

Heres the one I was referring to being a reamed out Spanish 10 ga

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2019/01/auction-alert-8-gauge-ralph-grant-sxs-plus-ammo/

I knew a gunsmith who used to make 8 gauge barrels from the H&R single shot 10 gauges , he said he proof tested them to 22k psi but stopped there which is well above what shotguns produced . He said it was too expensive though reaming the bores and getting the bore smooth enough . It wasnt a good business venture to spend 600$ reaming and polishing a 200$ shotgun .

Still a 14lb 10 gauge is pretty hefty , I think the heavy Spanish ones are usually what around 11lbs ?

[Dave Noreen]

Still over priced by a factor of four!

[Milton C Starr]

Still over priced by a factor of four!

Yeah ive seen the Beretta Silverhawk 10 ga before for 1700$ and they are alot nicer than that one .

This is probably the nicest Spanish 10 gauge I have seen however
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-10-gauge/stoeger-zephyr-10-ga.cfm?gun_id=101312697

[CraigThompson]

Look I know I'm way way snobby about guns I like . But that thing has got to feel like a 4x6 that's about 5 feet long or in other words swing and balance like a log :whistle:

[Milton C Starr]

Look I know I'm way way snobby about guns I like . But that thing has got to feel like a 4x6 that's about 5 feet long or in other words swing and balance like a log :whistle:

Ive been called a gun snob because apparently the only rifle you need is a 300$ one and a stoeger sxs is just as good as a London Best quaility ....:rotf:
or so I have been told .

[charlie cleveland]

i m like you the barrels must be pretty thick on that gun to weigh 14 lbs...i like looking at the guns and talking about them...but i m not young any more and its hard for me to handle these big guns even though i still try to shoot then once in awhile....keep posting about these big guns you seem to have a knack about finding them...charlie

[charlie cleveland]

i would like to have had one of those harrington and richerson single barrel 10 ga s made into 8 ga...i looked at gunbroker but could not find that 8 ga double barrell but did find jeramigh johnsons big 8 ga it weighs 14 lb 8 ounces....charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

To each his own. Never make fun of another man's dog (or gun). I've only shot at one turkey with mine. Dead as a door-nail at forty-five yards. Made by Zabala Hermanos S.A. They have been making guns since 1932.

They weighed theirs on a deer hanging scale. It weighs 10 pounds 12 ounces. Not as heavy as my Remington SP10.

[Rick Losey]

don't get me wrong Jerry

the Spanish have made -and currently make - some great guns

but there were a few makers back then who still needed to learn about metallurgy

[Jerry Harlow]

don't get me wrong Jerry

the Spanish have made -and currently make - some great guns

but there were a few makers back then who still needed to learn about metallurgy

No offense taken. Zabala has made over 1,000,000 guns. My gun has great wood, hand checkered, and built like a tank. It is just a novelty to me. I saw it. Liked it because it was a 10. Made a good trade for it. The 32" barrels in 10 gauge are fun to hold up on a slow coming in turkey.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/shotgun/zabala-century-classic-shotgun-review

[Milton C Starr]

To each his own. Never make fun of another man's dog (or gun). I've only shot at one turkey with mine. Dead as a door-nail at forty-five yards. Made by Zabala Hermanos S.A. They have been making guns since 1932.

They weighed theirs on a deer hanging scale. It weighs 10 pounds 12 ounces. Not as heavy as my Remington SP10.

Didnt Zabala make the Richland arms 711 10 gauges ? I have always thought of buying one of those or a similar one but I really dislike beavertails . And I have been told you cant simply reshape a beavertail to a splinter because of the forend metal .

I dont have anything against the Spanish 10 gauges there just doesnt seem to be alot of solid information about the different brands mostly opinions .
The 711 Richland is the one I see come up most often .

[Milton C Starr]

i would like to have had one of those harrington and richerson single barrel 10 ga s made into 8 ga...i looked at gunbroker but could not find that 8 ga double barrell but did find jeramigh johnsons big 8 ga it weighs 14 lb 8 ounces....charlie

Charlie someone was selling a set of Shattuck 8 gauge singles , 2 of them awhile back for 1500$ I think it was . I wouldnt mind getting a Davenport someday .

[wayne goerres]

If you pay 1700.00 for that gun you will pay 1100.00 to much.

[Milton C Starr]

If you pay 1700.00 for that gun you will pay 1100.00 to much.

Oh Im not planning on buying it just thought the weight was odd for a 10 gauge .

I had a budget of 6000$ but I spent 3500 on my rifle and the rest on other hobbies . So im not in the market for awhile , Maybe something interesting will show up later this year . I think this year I will streamline my focus on what I want as my first Parker.

[Jerry Harlow]

To answer a couple of questions. Richland was made by Zabala. A couple of years ago I was going to sell mine for $700 because it has walnut wood and is more embellished, but decided to keep it. If you see one at a gun show, offer $500 and if you get it for $600 you have a solid gun. It is as I said a novelty, as most gun shops want to be rid of them. Very little demand now since the 3.5" 12 gauge, and especially only two shots when you can have five for turkey and deer with an auto or pump.

[Bill Murphy]

I would like to hear more about the ten to eight H&R conversion. I have a minty H&R ten that opens up by itself whenever a 3 1/2" ten is fired in it. I don't think it is a good platform for eights. Where can I read about this conversion? My Davenport eight is one fine gun, better than the H&R, and it will get more use when I reactivate my eight gauge loading equipment after my recent move.

[Milton C Starr]

To answer a couple of questions. Richland was made by Zabala. A couple of years ago I was going to sell mine for $700 because it has walnut wood and is more embellished, but decided to keep it. If you see one at a gun show, offer $500 and if you get it for $600 you have a solid gun. It is as I said a novelty, as most gun shops want to be rid of them. Very little demand now since the 3.5" 12 gauge, and especially only two shots when you can have five for turkey and deer with an auto or pump.

There was a new in still in the box never fired 711 for sale last year on GI .
Waterfowl hunting is pretty popular here since we have the second biggest lake in the state of GA . I live close enough to the water the waterfowlers wake me up from the shots :rotf: .

[Dean Romig]

Why would anyone need a 5-shot gun for turkeys or deer?





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[charlie cleveland]

dean if you ever hunt deer with dogs and buckshot you will know why you need 5 shots or more....charlie....

[Jerry Harlow]

Why would anyone need a 5-shot gun for turkeys or deer?.

Dean,

We were limited in my state to a maximum of three shells in a gun. Someone went before the game commission and convinced them that there should not be a limit of rounds on game that was not Federally protected. I hated the change because on a deer that is missed once, twice, three times and by now the deer is out of range yet they continue to spray buckshot at up to 100 yards. Someone will get killed by this if it has not already happened. I was rabbit hunting one day and one rabbit hunter in another part of the farm shot five times at a rabbit. Probably a kid. I found the dead rabbit later after they left. I think the change was dangerous. But as Charlie stated, if one cripples one and has fired all three shots, the other two come in handy to keep it from getting away. Also there are others that will try to kill the whole herd as it goes by being run by dogs. That is probably who proposed the change.

With that being said, I found the easiest way to carry extra ammo was in the magazine tube. While I am not very proud of the video link below, you can see the fourth shot came in very handy for me one day. I also learned to hold onto a 3.5" magnum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrTLnmnVjs&t=208s

[Milton C Starr]

I would like to hear more about the ten to eight H&R conversion. I have a minty H&R ten that opens up by itself whenever a 3 1/2" ten is fired in it. I don't think it is a good platform for eights. Where can I read about this conversion? My Davenport eight is one fine gun, better than the H&R, and it will get more use when I reactivate my eight gauge loading equipment after my recent move.

You would need to contact ED Hubel on the accuratereloading forum .
He has built some pretty crazy guns . And has done alot of proof testing and load development for modern 8 gauge loads . I never had my h&r 10 gauge open up when firing but the EC Green 10 ga double I had would do that all the time .

Ive always wonder how those 16 gauge on 20 gauge sxs are built and why that is possible but most people considered a 8 on 10 ga frame not possible . Seems going from a 20 ga to 16 is a bigger jump than 10 to 8 ga.

[Milton C Starr]

Dean,

We were limited in my state to a maximum of three shells in a gun. Someone went before the game commission and convinced them that there should not be a limit of rounds on game that was not Federally protected. I hated the change because on a deer that is missed once, twice, three times and by now the deer is out of range yet they continue to spray buckshot at up to 100 yards. Someone will get killed by this if it has not already happened. I was rabbit hunting one day and one rabbit hunter in another part of the farm shot five times at a rabbit. Probably a kid. I found the dead rabbit later after they left. I think the change was dangerous. But as Charlie stated, if one cripples one and has fired all three shots, the other two come in handy to keep it from getting away. Also there are others that will try to kill the whole herd as it goes by being run by dogs. That is probably who proposed the change.

With that being said, I found the easiest way to carry extra ammo was in the magazine tube. While I am not very proud of the video link below, you can see the fourth shot came in very handy for me one day. I also learned to hold onto a 3.5" magnum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrTLnmnVjs&t=208s

We dont have a magazine limit for large game here , but buckshot is illegal for deer on WMA land .

[Dean Romig]

dean if you ever hunt deer with dogs and buckshot you will know why you need 5 shots or more....charlie....


I would never hunt deer with dogs and buckshot. I know it was/is popular to do so in some parts of the country - and I don'y intend to offend anyone... and I don't even like drives anymore and only ever participated in two drives... very scary stuff sometimes goes on in a drive.





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[charlie cleveland]

jerry them big guns will jump outa your hands sometime...really liked the video of the sst ....i bought 5 rouds of that ammo but aint shot nothing with it yet...even bought a box of 20 ga tss....charlie

[Jerry Harlow]

I would never hunt deer with dogs and buckshot. I know it was/is popular to do so in some parts of the country - and I don'y intend to offend anyone... and I don't even like drives anymore and only ever participated in two drives... very scary stuff sometimes goes on in a drive

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Dean,

In my county rifles were illegal for over sixty years due to an incident involving a local politician's/courthouse crew's wife nearly being shot. As one of the family members told me when we tried to get rifles legalized in the county back in the 90s "you'll never use a rifle in this county as long as I'm alive"(he's still alive). So buckshot was it. I kill most of my deer without dogs and with buckshot. Lose very few. So dogs and buckshot became the tradition (with a rifle in the pickup gun rack) for most hunters. Only last year did rifles become legal again, but we went through the slow progression from muzzle-loaders, to slugs, then to rifles without anyone being killed.

The opponents came out of the woodwork. One woman testified that rifles should not be legalized in the county because terrorists would come in and use them to overtake the nuclear power plant! :eek:

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Jerry, I'm good with still-hunting, stalking, stand hunting, tree-stand hunting, ground blind hunting but I draw the line (for myself at least) at baiting and running dogs for deer. Again, that's just me.

IMO, and I have nothing to back up my opinion, Buckshot in the woods where there are other hunters - even those, and maybe especially those, in your own party - is more dangerous than a well-directed single bullet.





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[Jerry Harlow]

Thanks Jerry, I'm good with still-hunting, stalking, stand hunting, tree-stand hunting, ground blind hunting but I draw the line (for myself at least) at baiting and running dogs for deer. Again, that's just me.

IMO, and I have nothing to back up my opinion, Buckshot in the woods where there are other hunters - even those, and maybe especially those, in your own party - is more dangerous than a well-directed single bullet.

.

Dean,

We tried to tell them that for sixty years. Even put in regulations rifles had to be cased to an elevated stand at least ten feet off the ground. Refused to listen. Then on the last day of deer season about five years ago a deer ran between two hunters and a single buckshot pellet to the head of one of the hunters put an end to a young life. I have had a guy shoot uphill at a running deer and put pellets in the tree above me, and the only reason he did not shoot the third shot was I yelled. And I was in a tree stand. He was on posted land so I thought I was alone on a windy day. He blamed me because he said he did not see my blaze orange on his way into the posted land (my back was to the tree).

[Daniel Carter]

Each part of the country has it's own unique way of hunting. In some areas the topography dictates what will work and what will not. In areas of low deer numbers dogs, driving and bait will not do, deer numbers will not stand it.( Maine) In the south with no winter kill, vast areas of impenetrable swamp and low hunter numbers the deer can sustain the methods used. I hope to sit on the kitchen steps of Hampton plantation in SC and re-read Rutlige's Christmas hunt. In his time and place it was THE way to deer hunt and still seem to be.

[Mike Poindexter]

To each his own. Never make fun of another man's dog (or gun). I've only shot at one turkey with mine. Dead as a door-nail at forty-five yards. Made by Zabala Hermanos S.A. They have been making guns since 1932.

They weighed theirs on a deer hanging scale. It weighs 10 pounds 12 ounces. Not as heavy as my Remington SP10.

I have one of those ZH 10 ga's with 32 inch bbls I bought in 1990 or so, the first year the Feds came out with the lead shot ban on waterfowl and I didnt want to shoot steel in my Model 23 Win. The ZH weighed around 10 1/2 lbs as I recall, and had over 40 points restriction in both barrels. I took it to a Denver gunsmith who agreed to a step by step choke reaming process to get it to pattern well with steel, for the same price he charged for a one time ream per barrel. He reamed it .005 at a time, then I would take it to the range on the weekend, shoot a couple of patterns, and take it back to him on Monday. We reamed it down to 24 points before the patterns started to develop any consistency. Perfect round 58% with 1 5/8 oz Steel BB's and 73% with Steel T's. Think we may have taken it down another 3 points to 21, but that gave no more improvement. Never did shoot the gun with T's at geese, because the steel BB's were so effective at my max range of 50-60 yards or so. Most shots were 25-50 yards over decoys, and the BB's dropped them like flies. The gun cured me of stopping my swing--those barrels just kept moving. Paid $300 for the gun in 1990 and another $90 or 100 for the choke reaming. We used to lay out in the corn or wheat fields under a white sheet or a large piece of burlap, depending on the cover. The gun got more than its share of mud and dirt exposure, but never failed. I quit hunting geese in about 2000, and still have few boxes of the Federal 1 5/8 loads in the cabinet, along with the mighty 10 ga. and 9 dozen G&H Magnum decoys in my friends barn. One of these days I'll have to do it again, just for nostalgia's sake, before I get too decrepit. The gun is sort of clubby when compared to a Parker, but it sure did the job.

[Milton C Starr]

Thanks Jerry, I'm good with still-hunting, stalking, stand hunting, tree-stand hunting, ground blind hunting but I draw the line (for myself at least) at baiting and running dogs for deer. Again, that's just me.

IMO, and I have nothing to back up my opinion, Buckshot in the woods where there are other hunters - even those, and maybe especially those, in your own party - is more dangerous than a well-directed single bullet.





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My neighbor who taught me how to shoot when I was a kid and he is the coach of the local 4H skeet team , has a buckshot pellet in his neck from where a another hunter accidentally shot him . Luckily it was just that one stray pellet that hit him .

[Milton C Starr]

Dean,

We tried to tell them that for sixty years. Even put in regulations rifles had to be cased to an elevated stand at least ten feet off the ground. Refused to listen. Then on the last day of deer season about five years ago a deer ran between two hunters and a single buckshot pellet to the head of one of the hunters put an end to a young life. I have had a guy shoot uphill at a running deer and put pellets in the tree above me, and the only reason he did not shoot the third shot was I yelled. And I was in a tree stand. He was on posted land so I thought I was alone on a windy day. He blamed me because he said he did not see my blaze orange on his way into the posted land (my back was to the tree).

He was clearly in the wrong , the thing they drive into your head in hunter safety course is never fire at something you cannot see or dont know what it is .

We had a fellow on a quail hunt once shoot someones house that bordered the plantations property , to make matters worse it was a police officers house . The guide not even 5 seconds before told the hunters not to fire in that direction . I never understood why we was hunting on the perimeter of the property anyhow as we had 3,800 acres .

[Jerry Harlow]

Here is your chance to pick up one of these mighty tens for an estimate of $400-$600.

http://www.kramersales.com/kramer/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/JAN.11-GUN-CATALOG.pdf

Item 274
Spanish Royal Crown 10 ga Magnum Dbl #46159; 10 ga. 31 3/4" bbls. Blue
bbls. Blued finish & silver engravedreceiver. In very fine, like new condition & rubber recoil pad isdeteriorating. (245) 400.00 - 600.00274

[Milton C Starr]

Here is your chance to pick up one of these mighty tens for an estimate of $400-$600.

http://www.kramersales.com/kramer/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/JAN.11-GUN-CATALOG.pdf

Item 274
Spanish Royal Crown 10 ga Magnum Dbl #46159; 10 ga. 31 3/4" bbls. Blue
bbls. Blued finish & silver engravedreceiver. In very fine, like new condition & rubber recoil pad isdeteriorating. (245) 400.00 - 600.00274

Im looking at a old Parkers that just showed up for 900$ .
Im not sure but it looks to have a 5 stamped on the barrel lug where it usually says 3 . I emailed the seller asking for a better picture .

[charlie cleveland]

was looking for big bore shotguns today..there was listed a 8 gauge double barrel with 39 inch barrels for sale..it was listed at 1700 hundred dollars...this really got me excited kept reading it had done been sold about 6 months ago...i did not need that gun but if it had still been for sale my wife would have been mad at me...this gun had modern steel barrels...charlie

[Stan Hillis]

Each part of the country has it's own unique way of hunting. In some areas the topography dictates what will work and what will not. In areas of low deer numbers dogs, driving and bait will not do, deer numbers will not stand it.( Maine) In the south with no winter kill, vast areas of impenetrable swamp and low hunter numbers the deer can sustain the methods used. I hope to sit on the kitchen steps of Hampton plantation in SC and re-read Rutlige's Christmas hunt. In his time and place it was THE way to deer hunt and still seem to be.

A. Rutledge is one of my favorite outdoor authors of all time. I dearly love his writings, as it describes hunting in the South as I have known it. However .....

I have lived in "deer dogging" country all my life, on the edge of the Savannah River swamp. Hunted with dogs for many years, which requires using blue whistlers (buckshot). Finally gave it up (buckshot) when I realized just how inefficient it is. I once shot a big buck facing straight towards me at about 30 yards with 00 buck. He wheeled and ran, leaving only a few droplets of blood. Saw him the next year near that area in a 'bean field, but couldn't get a shot. The third year I killed him with a Model 99 .300 Savage. When I skinned him I found three of the buckshot encased in a clearish gristly substance, only about an inch deep, under the skin in his fore-chest.

Anything that can't penetrate any better than that is not for me, tho' I killed many deer with it in my life. No more.

Though not a legal caliber, and I don't hunt deer anymore, I'd sooner shoot them with a .22 Magnum than buckshot. At least I can put it exactly where it needs to go to do the job. Buckshot go where they want to go.

SRH

[Milton C Starr]

was looking for big bore shotguns today..there was listed a 8 gauge double barrel with 39 inch barrels for sale..it was listed at 1700 hundred dollars...this really got me excited kept reading it had done been sold about 6 months ago...i did not need that gun but if it had still been for sale my wife would have been mad at me...this gun had modern steel barrels...charlie

Charlie ive been browsing a getting another 10 ga sxs for awhile now and havnt found any that stood out until recently . It ifs still for sale I may be able to pick it up in a couple of weeks . Sometimes if you can find someone selling from their personal collection they are priced alot better than buying from a vintage sxs dealer .

[Daniel Carter]

Mr. Hillis I am in total agreement with you.

[Mills Morrison]

Deer drives was THE southern hunting sport from the decades before the Civil War up until fairly recently. While I hate to see traditions die, I agree with Stan too and also know of two accidents, one fatal, in deer drives from the last few years. My brother shut it down on Dad's place for safety reasons alone and it is now still hunting only.

[Brian Dudley]

Those are $500-700 guns all day long. Some sellers are just crazy.

[Milton C Starr]

Those are $500-700 guns all day long. Some sellers are just crazy.

Ive recently found a great deal on a nice old 10 gauge if its still for sale in the next week or two I am going to try and get it .

Even if I found one of those 10 ga 3.5" doubles for cheap I couldnt bring myself buy a double without a splinter forend and from what Ive been told you cant reshape a beavertail into a splinter .

[Dean Romig]

From what Ive been told you cant reshape a beavertail into a splinter .


There is no good reason why you can't.





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[Milton C Starr]

There is no good reason why you can't.





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From what Ive seen discussed on another forum the claim was it changes how the forend and latch comes into contact with the barrels . That it would make the forend metal closer to the lug on the barrel so the way the forend latches would need to be modified. I dont see how as you would be removing wood from the outside of the forend not inside of it .

Ive been reading and it seems one of the better 10 ga 3.5s are the AYA ones and they made a lightweight 10 ga magnum double 9lbs . The action is rounded and not as square as you see on most of these guns .

Honestly though I really like the 2 7/8 10 gauges Ive owned and hunted with . A 1 1/8oz load in a 10lb gun is probably one of the softest shooting shotguns you could hunt with .

And ammo availability doesnt really matter much when it comes to ordering 10 ga RST loads vs 10 ga 3.5" shells off the shelf . As locally all you will ever find is steel BB loads which I wouldnt shoot through one of these fixed full choked Spanish Magnums .

[Dean Romig]

Maybe someone has done this already but I plan to do it soon...

Remove the forend latch from both a splinter and from a beavertail and lay them on a flat surface and measure the height of each to determine if the difference is significant in shaping a beavertail wood to a splinter.






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[Stan Hillis]

Maybe someone has done this already but I plan to do it soon...

Remove the forend latch from both a splinter and from a beavertail and lay them on a flat surface and measure the height of each to determine if the difference is significant in shaping a beavertail wood to a splinter.






.

Remember that there is another limiting factor when considering converting a beavertail to a splinter. One must first determine if the wood on the beavertail was fitted closely enough to the barrels underneath. While removing wood from the beavertail's exterior will certainly turn it into a splinter, one may well end up with very unsightly gaps between the wood and the barrels because the wood on the beavertail was never fitted as closely in those areas.

It takes close scrutiny to determine this. One way, as a quick check told me by a friend, is too remove the b.t. forend, put a thin layer of Play-Doh inside it, and replace the forend on the gun, latching it completely. This will press the Play-Doh into whatever thickness the clearance is in all those critical locations.

SRH

[Brian Dudley]

There is no good reason why you can't.





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There Certainly IS.

And with a Parker, it is impossible. Other makers... maybe.

[Milton C Starr]

Maybe someone has done this already but I plan to do it soon...

Remove the forend latch from both a splinter and from a beavertail and lay them on a flat surface and measure the height of each to determine if the difference is significant in shaping a beavertail wood to a splinter.






.

I suppose some gunsmithing could be done to the forend latch to get a better fit if one were to change it to a splinter ? I guess it would also depend on just how thin you want it to be . I wonder if you could take measurements off a particular splinter forend to use for the inspiration for the redesign then work the forend latch to fit how you want it ?

Probably not economical on one of these 10 ga Spanish guns but I always thought it would be neat to take one and reshape the wood to look more like a classic double .

[Milton C Starr]

Charlie I have been reading about wildfowling over in the U.K , probably the only place where 8 bores still see serious hunting . Apparently there was a company called Greylag in the U.K boring out these heavy 10 bores to make modern 8 bore boxlocks . They used a Kestrel 10 bore as the base gun .

Muzzles still have some thickness to them surprisingly , though if they are reproofed after boring I would think they are stout .