Off Topic Question

[John Davis]

Not Parker related but I'm asking anyway. If you had a 12 gauge double barrel Ithaca Flues, circa 1921, that was in excellent shape, would you feel safe shooting 2 3/4 dram equivalent shells off the shelf? If so, how about 3 dram equivalent? Thanks, John

[Dean Romig]

Not at the traps but I definitely would in hunting situations.





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[todd allen]

I'm not an Ithaca expert, but from what I've heard, the Flues was not as robust as the NID, and should be limited to low pressure loads.
That said, I wouldn't want to shoot hot loads in any classic SxS. Not that 2 3/4 Dram is necessarily hot.

[John Davis]

Was considering her for a doubles trap gun. Configured perfectly but I'm worried about the ammo.

[Craig Budgeon]

Fleus actions are weak, that is one of the reasons for the development of the NID.

[Bill Murphy]

I think the Flues problem with frame breakage is mostly confined to smallbores, not 12 gauges. However, no Flues would be my first choice for an ATA doubles gun. More parts are available for Parkers and Foxes. I would use a Model 21 for doubles.

[Jean Swanson]

John

I did not like Dean's reply----there is NO difference between trap & field, over load is over load. My suggestion is to stay away from an Ithaca with s/n less than 400,000--- flues models.

There are plenty of guns out there that will fill your needs----be patient.

Your conservative friend from VT
Allan

[Dean Romig]

My question then is are the loads John made reference to considered to be “overloads” for a 1921 12 gauge Ithaca Flues?





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[Brian Dudley]

Why Flues models got a bad name in regards to not using the correct loads.

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[Garry L Gordon]

I don't recall the thread, but just recently Dave N. (Researcher) noted the change in weight of Flues models over the time of their production. According to him they beefed up (my words, not his) the frames and corresponding overall weight of the later Flues models. I don't note this as a reply to the original question, but just for reference. I see no reason to tempt fate with loads that may damage an old double.

[Dean Romig]

I certainly agree. If the gun’s not up to the task... but again, what would be considered an “overload” for a 1921 Ithaca 12 gauge Flues?





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[Jean Swanson]

Dean

I will just put this out there---Years ago I was shooting trap & the person next to me was shooting a Winchester ,12 bore , mod. 21 that unknown to all of us was loaded with an overloaded cartridge.Upon pulling the trigger, the gun exploded, leaving the barrels & forearm in his left hand with a missing finger & the bloody face with the action & stock. Not a pleasant sight.

Dean--my reason for saying what I did is simple---" THE RISK IS NOT WORTH THE GAMBLE" .Buying a gun that has a reputation of a weak action, is not good judgement in my book. I think you understand my concern, John is a friend & I would hate to see any misfortune happen !!!

Best to you & Kathy
Allan

[Brian Dudley]

Winchester couldn't blow one up. But he could... ha.

[Jean Swanson]

Brian

I was just stating a situation that happened to one of the STRONGEST actions on the market, so what could happen with a gun that is known to have a weaker action. My point. Not worth the exposure/risk !! Factory or hand loaded cartridges could blow up in your hand ----NO guarantees !!! Shit happens. At the age of 80, I have seen a lot happen---some good & some bad.

Just my thoughts
Allan

[Dean Romig]

Allan - I understand completely.

I was not aware of the questionable reputation of the Flues 12 bore. I have owned two Flues models but they were 20 and 28 bore guns and I never gave it a thought because they were both high condition guns and simply shot Morris’ ammo in them... never owned or shot a 12.
In the early 60’s I had a 12 bore Parker Trojan and shot anything that would fit in the chamber... Ignorance is bliss I guess, but in my ignorance I shouldn’t be advising others to do similar fool-hardy things to those I did in my blissful early teens.

Our Best to you and Jean as well.
Dean




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[Dean Romig]

Was considering her for a doubles trap gun. Configured perfectly but I'm worried about the ammo.

John - get a Parker, you’ll love it.





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[Randy G Roberts]

Not Parker related but I'm asking anyway. If you had a 12 gauge double barrel Ithaca Flues, circa 1921, that was in excellent shape, would you feel safe shooting 2 3/4 dram equivalent shells off the shelf? If so, how about 3 dram equivalent? Thanks, John

No, I would not shoot the 2 3/4 dram personally much less the 3 dram.

[Bill Murphy]

Allan is 80? Congratulations!

[Dave Noreen]

I too thought the frame cracking was confined to the Flues Model smallbores, then I snagged this series of letters off ebay --

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[Drew Hause]

Researcher's letters all date to after the introduction of Western's boomers; 12g ‘Super-X Field’ 2 3/4" 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dram Equiv. shell in 1922, and the 3" ‘Record’ with 1 3/8 oz. of shot in 1923.

The Double Gun Journal, Winter 2016, p. 129 had a neat article "Ithaca’s Golden Girls” by Jim Foral, featuring Mrs. E.B. Belknap (Alice) and Mrs. Troup Saxon (Ermina)

Forest & Stream, March 1, 1913
https://books.google.com/books?id=mkkcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA288&lpg

Mrs. E.B. (Alice) Belknap and her No. 4E Flues

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/413056683.jpg

Amateur Sportsman, May 1911
https://books.google.com/books?id=m5kXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA36&lpg

Mrs. Troup (Ermina) Saxon and her No. 7 Flues

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/413056684.jpg

They were likely shooting 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. loads with modern transducer pressures of 8,500 - 10,000 psi; similar to today's target loads. And a lot of them.

What John does not know is what loads have been through his Flues, apparently set up for trap, in the past.

But if the frame cracks there is always this

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/411807350.jpg


I believe there is much more to the blown up M21 story; just like the "blown up" K80 and Perazzi trap guns. The Model 21 was proved with a “Violent Proof” (VP) load reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons = about 24,000 psi by Burrard's conversion. One M21 survived 2000 of these loads.

[Dave Noreen]

Keep in mind that up to April 1940, 1 1/4 ounce loads were allowed in trap shooting. The 3 1/8 dram equiv. pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot was quite a popular load.

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[Bill Murphy]

Dave, when you find a box of those Lubaloy trap loads in the 3" case, we'll talk. Drew, were there also ten gauge 3 1/2" available? Of course we lament the fact that the customer could have had a #4 Super Ten for $50.00 but turned it down.

[Drew Hause]

Dave is of course correct.

Field & Stream, 1912, “The Trap Gun and Some Loads” by E.C. Crossman
September, Part 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=OHTlAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA537&lpg
October, Part 2 “Patterns and Loads”
https://books.google.com/books?id=dHTlAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA628&lpg
Crossman listed the standard Trap load as 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/8 Dr. Eq.

In 1913 the Interstate Association submitted a poll to trapshooters:
Are you in favor of restricting loads for target shooting to 3 Drams Bulk, or the equivalent in Dense powder, and 1 1/8 oz. of shot?
Frank Butler – “Let me say that the shooter can break targets with a three dram one and one-eighth load if he holds right. Harold Money, who traveled as a professional for years, always used three Drams “Schultze” Powder and one and one-eighth shot.”

DuPont began an advertising campaign promoting 3 Dram loads in 1914
Forest & Stream
https://books.google.com/books?id=kB4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA835
https://books.google.com/books?id=kB4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA867

In 1919 the Executive Committee of the American Trapshooting Association voted on whether to establish the standard load a 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. The proposal failed.
Arms and The Man, August 2, 1919
https://books.google.com/books?id=TBofKvr1Fi4C&pg=PA377&lpg


Bill: The Western Super-X Super-Ten shell with 1 5/8 ounces of shot with 4 3/4 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 2 7/8" case was introduced about 1926. The Western Super-X Magnum-Ten with 2 ounces of shot and 5 Dr. Eq. of Progressive Burning Smokeless Powder in a 3 1/2" case was introduced in 1932.

[Jean Swanson]

My mentor, Louis Goland, would say to me when I was learning to shoot"a yank & a bang, you missed because you were not on it"----who knows what I was shooting an oz, 1 1/8, 1 1/4 or 20 oz's, other than.----I MISSED!!!

I finally came to the conclusion , if the target did not have feathers, I could not hit it !!!

That is my story & I am sticking to it. I never shot a 25, but I shot a ton of 24's.
Allan

[charlie cleveland]

those are some really good looking shot shell boxes i have some like them in 12 ga and 1 box of the 10 ga...also have a box of the early 10 ga 3 1/2 inch magnum in the record brand of shells....charlie

[John Davis]

Why do I shoot 1 1/8 ounce loads at trap? Because I can’t shoot 1 1/4.

[Garry L Gordon]

Yet another thread with information worth the price of admission! Thanks.

[todd allen]

I shot pigeons last Saturday at a fun shoot. Bounced around between guns (because it was a fun shoot). Guns used; a Perazzi pigeon gun, an AL 391 trap gun, and a 1935 Parker Vent Rib trap gun. Shot all equally well, even though I shot 1 oz 8s, 1st bbl, and 1 1/8 oz 2nd BBL in the Parker.
The bystanders were amazed at how well the Parker performed, despite using the light loads.
After a bazzilion years of shooting, you start to learn how effective the lighter loads are. Bruised shoulders are for the newbies.

[Dean Romig]

What Todd said X 100





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[Dean Romig]

You should have seen the 50 - 60 yard shots I was breaking with a full choke 20 gauge with 7/8 oz. of #8 pushed by 14 grains of 20/28 at our New Years Day shoot.





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[todd allen]

I shoot sporting clays with a Master Class shooter, who has had factory sponsors. Guess what his predominantly used load is?
If you guessed 7/8 oz of 8s, I'll hit the winner buzzer.

[Daniel Carter]

You should have seen the 50 - 60 yard shots I was breaking with a full choke 20 gauge with 7/8 oz. of #8 pushed by 14 grains of 20/28 at our New Years Day shoot.





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I shot the 10 ga. to back up Dean at that shoot and was amazed at the reach it had. It was after 3 stations that I saw it was a 20 ga.

[James L. Martin]

I have been loading 7/8 oz of #8 for all my 12ga guns for years, started with skeet ,then sporting clays then trap. Have also loaded a lot of 3/4 oz 12ga but you can see the difference so I now stay with 7/8 oz.

[Chuck Bishop]

John I believe it was the late great Leo Harrison who said about shooting 1 1/8 only because they wouldn't allow 1 1/4 ounces of shot. When you had averages like Leo had, every pellet counts. Of course Leo was about 6'5 and about 350 pounds. Imho, he was the greatest trapshooter ever.

I shot 1 oz for years at 16 yards and 1 1/8 of light 8's from long yardage (many years ago) at 25+ yards at handicap. If I missed, it wasnt due to the shells. I shoot 12ga 7/8 oz and 3/4 oz in 20 and 28 ga at SC's and they perform well.

[John Davis]

Chuck, you are correct on the quote.

Also, I shoot 1 1/8 oz., 2 3/4 dram equiv., 1145 fps, loads in registered 16 yard singles. 1 1/8 oz., 3 dram equiv., 1200 fps, loads in handicap. And some combo of those in doubles. #8 shot for everything. For registered targets I prefer Remington STS, but also shoot RST trap loads, Winchester AA and Federal Grands. For practice I usually shoot Estates off the shelf at Walmart. And I will often use the Estates for my first shot in doubles.

I know that 1 oz. loads will break targets just as well as 1 1/8 oz., but since trap is 95% mental I go with the extra 1/8 of an ounce when the targets count. And if they would let me I'd go another 1/8. Anything to make me feel better. And as you know, 1 target can make the difference between Champion and Runner Up.

I will add that I know very few trap shooters who choose 1 oz. over 1 1/8 when they are shooting registered targets. Wonder how many 1 oz. loads they sell at the Grand?