So When is "Original" no longer Original?

[Garry L Gordon]

Looking at another couple of threads has me thinking about our various opinions on originality. My question is about guns that left the factory one way, but were returned later for some changes. Example: I have a CH that was originally ordered without a safety, but returned a few years later (different owner apparently) to have the safety installed. Since I have documentation that this is all factory work, I consider this gun's condition original. Then there is the case when the records don't show what seems clearly factory work done after the original order was delivered.

Opinions?

[Mike Franzen]

I would consider any work documented as done by the factory to be original no matter at what point in the guns life it took place. Undocumented work is subject to opinion and a question mark will always remain. Collectors of “Original Condition” Guns are very wary of undocumented repairs, replacements or upgrades.

[Jay Gardner]

When I think of a gun being in original condition I think of a gun that has not been restored. Your gun was modified by Parker, not restored, so I think it’s original.

JDG

[CraigThompson]

When I think of a gun being in original condition I think of a gun that has not been restored. Your gun was modified by Parker, not restored, so I think it’s original.

JDG

Yes sir my sentiments almost to a “T” !!!! I DO NOT like words that begin with “re” like reblued refinished or RESTORED . To each his own and while I’ve had barrels redone it was pretty much last resort or a gun it wasn’t gonna affect the resale value in the least . And I under stand restoration is sometimes actually needed a gun needs to be damn near a basket case for ME to even consider the word restoration . When I was in my Virginia phase I was after muskets made at the Virginia Manufactory in the 1799-1820ish period . A good many of those guns were changed from flint to percussion by the Confederacy as well as other military flintlocks . Anyway I was looking for a few parts to reconvert a 1795 Springfield back to flintlock 20 or so years ago and asked a friend that was a BIG civil war collector for thoughts on where to get original parts . His reply to me was that I was destroying history . I’ve never forgotten that and to a degree I feel the same way about a total resto on any Parker that’s totally original but low in finish . I’ve said it before and will continue to say it , “I’d rather have an honest 30% gun that’s 100% functional and unabused over a total resto gun” . Again to each his own that’s just my opinion .

[Bill Murphy]

"Clearly done by Parker Brothers" determined by an experienced Parker researcher, is better than any lesser documentation by a selling dealer. There is a whole lot of work done by Parker Brothers and Remington that is absolutely original that is not documented by PGCA letters.

[Craig Larter]

Untouched original is the gun that has never been back to the factory. A gun can only be original once regardless of the wear. Factory refreshed is a gun that was returned to Parker for either mechanical or finish refresh and is documented. A restored gun is a gun either mechanically repaired or refinish by other than the factory (or not factory documented) using the correct methods. A refinished gun is a gun done without regard to correct methods.
I prefer original guns but I have many guns with some undocumented restoration. As an example I picked up a very nice original DH 20ga all original except it had a large ugly scrape 1 inch by 3/4 inch long like it was dropped on a cement walkway. If I was alive during the Parker factory era I would have sent it back to be re-blacked. I had the barrels re-blackened using the proper methods. The gun is no longer original but restored but much more appealing in my opinion. After a few years of wear it will be impossible to tell. Hence I believe many of the guns we shoot today and consider original there is a high likelihood they are not.

[Greg Baehman]

My definition of original means the gun retains the exact same finishes as it left the factory originally. If a Parker is changed in any way (i.e. refreshed, refinished, restored, etc.) regardless of who did the work - whether it be the factory or whomever, the gun is no longer original.

[Garry L Gordon]

"Clearly done by Parker Brothers" determined by an experienced Parker researcher, is better than any lesser documentation by a selling dealer. There is a whole lot of work done by Parker Brothers and Remington that is absolutely original that is not documented by PGCA letters.

Thanks, Bill. So who might be on this list of "experienced Parker researchers?"

Has the Association ever offered authentication services at any of its annual meetings or other affairs. Seems like a PGCA authentication would be a good way to add to the coffers AND help out some of those Parker owners that have guns for which records are not available.

[Bill Murphy]

It is in the eye of an experienced collector, as in "I know it when I see it". You will never see the PGCA offering any authentication by eye. However, many of our members have a good eye for originality or lack thereof.

[Garry L Gordon]

I assume there are folks with expertise that for a fee would examine a gun closely (disassemble to check internal parts, for example) and issue a qualified outcome. Even our research letters have a caveat regarding the limitations of the records.

If there are people who would issue expert analysis of a gun, who are they? I certainly respect those with years of looking at and handling Parkers, but I assume there is more than just the eye test one could seek in those cases where records do not exist, yes?

[Jay Gardner]

My definition of original means the gun retains the exact same finishes as it left the factory originally. If a Parker is changed in any way (i.e. refreshed, refinished, restored, etc.) regardless of who did the work - whether it be the factory or whomever, the gun is no longer original.

So my VHE 20/32 that was ordered as a 20/28 then sent back to Parker and refitted with 32” barrels would not be original?

Jay

[Garry L Gordon]

So my VHE 20/32 that was ordered as a 20/28 then sent back to Parker and refitted with 32” barrels would not be original?

Jay

IF the finishes are original to the gun, why in the world would this factory gun not be considered original?

[Jay Gardner]

IF the finishes are original to the gun, why in the world would this factory gun not be considered original?

Exactly.

[Brian Dudley]

Thanks, Bill. So who might be on this list of "experienced Parker researchers?"

Has the Association ever offered authentication services at any of its annual meetings or other affairs. Seems like a PGCA authentication would be a good way to add to the coffers AND help out some of those Parker owners that have guns for which records are not available.



That is a very slippery slope that could come back to bite the organization which is why I would think it should not be done. IF it had ever been considered.
Especially if it was a fee based service.

At any event or gathering there are plenty of folks willing to lend their OPINIONS on guns and originality. In the end that is all it is.

[John Davis]

If you are trying to prove something that's not in the records, good luck with the "experts" opinion. At the end of the day it's just that, an opinion. I'm not a purest or an investor, so I try not to lose to much sleep over such things. I just buy guns I like or fit me, and then don't apologize for it.

[Greg Baehman]

So my VHE 20/32 that was ordered as a 20/28 then sent back to Parker and refitted with 32” barrels would not be original?

Jay
Jay, I kind of figured someone might find an example that would prove my personal definition is flawed. :) It's hard to tell from your wording if your gun is now a 2-bbl. set or not with your use of the word refitted vs. a gun that was retrofitted with another set of bbls. If, it indeed is a 2-bbl. set, then of course it would would fit the definition of original--providing nothing was done to either set of bbls. or finishes to the gun in any way since leaving the factory. If, the original 28" set is missing and a new set of 32" bbls. was added at the factory, I guess it's whatever definition of original you subscribe to.

[Garry L Gordon]

If you are trying to prove something that's not in the records, good luck with the "experts" opinion. At the end of the day it's just that, an opinion. I'm not a purest or an investor, so I try not to lose to much sleep over such things. I just buy guns I like or fit me, and then don't apologize for it.

John, Thanks for your response. I'm not trying to prove anything, and I agree with you about opinions -- we all have them, informed or otherwise (mine, I admit are probably not the best informed, but I've handled a Parker or two in 30-plus years of collecting, but in no way do I claim expertise). I, like you, am probably not what would be termed a purist, but I like the human nature of collecting...and how folks espouse their beliefs. I spent my career in art and I know a bit about authentication. It is a much different scenario than trying to fathom the vagaries of opinion. This question was brought on by reading another thread where the opinions expressed by contributors were, as is typical, all over the place.

I appreciated your comments, as I have all that have responded.

[John Davis]

Gary, I think you posted a great question. And as we've seen there's a number of ways to approach it. My response was directed more towards the idea that an "expert" opinion is going to prove anything. If it's not in the records, you are just guessing or hoping.

[Jay Gardner]

How bout this one. Apparently the gun was ordered by one customer, returned to Parker for credit, then sold to another customer but this time with 2-7/8” chambers. Original?

https://i.imgur.com/p3JyeVU.jpg

[Garry L Gordon]

How bout this one. Apparently the gun was ordered by one customer, returned to Parker for credit, then sold to another customer but this time with 2-7/8” chambers. Original?

https://i.imgur.com/p3JyeVU.jpg

Jay, original or not (and I think verifiably original), what a great configuration for a gun, and with wonderful dimensions. Gosh, if the factory refinished the gun or altered the chambers, how can that not be "factory?" I also wonder how many original owners of Parkers applied some sort of finish to the stock over time? Does rubbing a bit of linseed oil into the stock a hundred years ago change the originality (and could anyone really tell)? And if it was the 4th owner and only 30 years ago, does that change things? A special gun is a special gun.

[Craig Budgeon]

There seems to be a discrepancy of what is original to Parker Bros./ Parker guns. Since the youngest Parker is nearly 80 years old and a rather complex mechanical device you would think that some maintenance or repair would be required over that 79+years. Judgement varies and I doubt there are truly very few Parkers which are as originally manufactured.

[Bill Murphy]

Jay, is that 20 gauge built on something other than a #0 frame? The weight makes it sound like it may be a #1 frame. Of course, the 32" barrels may account for the excess weight.

[Dean Romig]

There seems to be a discrepancy of what is original to Parker Bros./ Parker guns. Since the youngest Parker is nearly 80 years old and a rather complex mechanical device you would think that some maintenance or repair would be required over that 79+years. Judgement varies and I doubt there are truly very few Parkers which are as originally manufactured.

Agreed, however, there do exist some completely original, unfired, benchmark Parkers in a few collections. We are very fortunate that such guns do exist - otherwise we wouldn’t know how they looked when they were factory fresh.






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[Jay Gardner]

Jay, is that 20 gauge built on something other than a #0 frame? The weight makes it sound like it may be a #1 frame. Of course, the 32" barrels may account for the excess weight.

Bill;

The gun is a 1-frame. It balances pretty well but it is a little muzzle heavy but not so much as to be a distraction in the heat of the moment.

Someday I hope to find a 20/28, 0-frame, in the same configuration.

Jay

[Eric Eis]

Agreed, however, there do exist some completely original, unfired, benchmark Parkers in a few collections. We are very fortunate that such guns do exist - otherwise we wouldn’t know how they looked when they were factory fresh.






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Yep, I know of "one" unfortunately I don't own it anymore, but it's setting in the care of great caretaker who has a passion for fine American doubles.

[Dean Romig]

Same with one that I kept in my safe for about 8 or 9 years...





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[Garry L Gordon]

Same with one that I kept in my safe for about 8 or 9 years...
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Hmmmm, and you let it go?!?

[Dean Romig]

It was a no brainer Garry. It was one of two that went to pay off my mortgage when I was surprised with an unexpected “retirement.”





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[Garry L Gordon]

It was a no brainer Garry. It was one of two that went to pay off my mortgage when I was surprised with an unexpected “retirement.”
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Hard not to see the investment value in guns that help pay the mortgage.

[Alfred Greeson]

Just a thought about Parker work. As you read and learn, many of the competition shooters seem to have always returned their guns to Parker to keep them in top shape and looking good. We really do not know how often this was done but if Parker did it, no problem. Interesting conversation, glad to hear of the good ones but as one member noted, we don't see many of those good ones out here, those Yankees keep buying them. Hats off to those Yankees who are keeper of the flame and great Parkers for future generations.

[Dean Romig]

There are a great many of the finest Parkers living waaaaay outside of Yankee land...:whistle:





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[JimDurchholz]

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

[JimDurchholz]

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

[Garry L Gordon]

I am a new member as of today. I plan on getting a letter, until then I have some questions on my Parker GH. Do all Parker’s have case hardened frames ? What is the correct but plate ( should it have Parker Bro’s )and should the wrist cap have Parker Bros ? My rib does not have Parker Bro’s on the barrel, is it factory? It has 26 in barrel and 11/2 frame. Serial number is 97848. Any help would be truly appreciated. Thanks

Jim, Others with greater experience and knowledge will likely chime in, but in order of your questions:

- Case hardened frames were the standard for Parker shotguns.
- GH grade guns generally had a Parker hard rubber butt plate, but could be ordered with pads, checkered, and with other options the purchaser was willing to pay for. As a lower grade, one does not commonly find more than the occasional checkered butt and pad in the factory records for this grade.
- Grip caps varied over time, and not all had writing on them. Knowing the year of manufacture can help determine the cap's originality.
- It's doubtful that your barrels are original if not stamped with the Parker name. Certain stampings were pretty standard on Parker barrels and you can find information about those from the links on the Home Page.

Pictures posted of your gun would bring much better and accurate replies. Some of the guys here can see things in photos that still continue to amaze me. As a member, you can order a letter for your gun at a significantly reduced rate if the records exist. Those letters can reveal important things about the originality of your gun.

You might try reposting your message on the new member page to get a wider audience.

Welcome, and enjoy that 1 1/2 frame gun (wish I had one).

[Dean Romig]

97848 would have been made with Damascus Steel barrels and the original top rib would confirm that but it is not in the Serialization book so maybe a research letter will say. If it has fluid steel barrels they are replacements.

Garry has it pretty well covered above.





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[James Purdy]

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.

[Ronald Scott]

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.
My feelings exactly.

[CraigThompson]

There are a great many of the finest Parkers living waaaaay outside of Yankee land...:whistle:
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But of course what true southern gentleman would call existing above the Mason Dixon line LIVING :whistle:

[Stan Hillis]

IMO there should be differentiation between "original condition and finishes" and "original configuration". The former meaning that, by all appearances, no metal or wood finishes have been restored or replaced ...... the latter meaning that finishes may have been restored or replaced but the order card dimensions and specs for the gun match exactly, and numbers match.

Also IMO, it may be impossible to determine whether a particular gun falls under the former or the latter category. A gun that was returned to Parker twenty years after its original completion, for freshing up, then used by subsequent owners for the next 60-80 years may be indistinguishable from a category one gun.

Interesting thread.

SRH

[Garry L Gordon]

I am new to the association, This thread is a topic of interest close to me. As some know I jumped into the parker club with a bhe I bought from poor quality auction photos alone. This gun fits into the undocumented factory repair group. It has newer parker barrels of the original Type steel and length, but of a later manufacture indicated by the serial font and the replaceable wear piece on the hook being later style. All else appears to be as the gun left he factory the first time. The gun will be having work done This winter to repair damage to the wrist. I treat these types of gun as I would any other piece of fine art. If the work is done right by the appropriate craftsman as a picasso would be repaired by a “conservator”
It does not deminish the gun as a whole, only its originality. Gun collectors place a large value on that originality. However, It is a state that exists only once, and I doubt many 100% condition guns of this era are untouched. A stock having a dent raised in 1925, and the repair skillfully blended would be invisible now. So it comes down to a personal subjective opinion, One that is difficult to quantify.
So I buy and shoot the guns I want in the condition that appeals to me. Plus I keep good records of work done and share that information freely with any gun that leaves my fold.
I don't chase unused guns. It is not my passion, i like the gun with a life lived, and cared for well.

Glenn, James, and others who've posted on this thread: For those of you that are relatively new to the forum and/or to double gun collecting, welcome to a world most rewarding -- and sometimes befuddling. Let me say here that no matter how it might seem, no one person speaks for all of the collecting fraternity, and although there are common beliefs among that fraternity, collecting is as idiosyncratic as are the humans that engage in it.

People collect for many reasons, and in the American double gun collecting community I think it's safe to say that the love of the guns, a respect for the craftsmen and women who made them, and a nostalgia for the time are often common threads in our passion. Certainly, high condition, original guns are prized, but so are unique specimens; time worn, but sound examples; time ravaged, but faithfully restored, and other permutations of the American gun craft. You'll read comments from folks who talk as much about the "deal" or "find" as they do about the actual gun -- and who doesn't like to find the "stored in the attic" example for sale cheap at a yard sale? In the end, the guns draw us together, and let me assure you that we all appreciate -- although sometimes our comments don't always reflect it -- our fellow collectors' passion for Parkers.

The aesthetic that each of us applies to our collecting, in all likelihood, changes over time for various reasons. Mine certainly has. This development is only natural, but in the end there are still "purists," "user-collectors," "accumulators," and other permutations of collecting among our ranks (I use quotations because these are terms some of our members have used about themselves). The one common element that I've discerned in observing these discussions over time is that folks are sincere about their love of Parkers and all that goes with collecting them -- the mystic of the Parker gun as Dean Romig reminded me just recently.

So, what you noted in your post I'm sure struck a positive cord with many of us. I hope you'll be enriched by these discussions as I have over the years. I also hope you will continue to participate in our discussions. One of my passions, besides Parkers, is continuing to learn. I learn much from my colleagues here, and not just specifics about these fine guns.

I hope you'll post some photos of your gun(s). I'd enjoy seeing them and hearing more about your views on collecting.

[Jay Gardner]

The Parker crowd is a very tough crowd. It was/is common practice for Brits to sent their fine doubles back to the factory or to a smith to be serviced and freshened up as needed. Unless the barrels have been cut, chambers/cones lengthened, or the stock altered buyers are primarily concerned that the gun has been properly maintained and serviced than the condition being “original.”

[Dean Romig]

Very well said Garry. I agree with it all.




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[Dean Romig]

I think often times when we see a Parker for sale that has been ‘restored’ or ‘refinished’ or whatever term might be used to describe that it isn’t in its original use-worn condition we wonder “why?”.... what flaw or defect is the recent work attempting to disguise or eliminate and if I buy this gun, what am I getting myself into? We don’t have proof houses and the law that insists a gun be re-proofed when such work is done to it. Therein, I think, lies the crux - the big difference between the way the Brits do it and the way we Americans do it.





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[John Campbell]

... It was/is common practice for Brits to sent their fine doubles back to the factory or to a smith to be serviced and freshened up as needed. Unless the barrels have been cut, chambers/cones lengthened, or the stock altered buyers are primarily concerned that the gun has been properly maintained and serviced than the condition being “original.”

True. However, the British laws of proof are primarily focused on the barrels of a gun and their safety for use. They are not concerned with stock condition or other aspects of the gun unless they impact the gun's safety and/or viability to be reproofed.

Different cultures have different concepts of "originality." And the debate is often interminable.

[James Purdy]

I have learned much here in the short time I have been a member. I too love the “deal” and the “find” of an interesting gun. My father bought and sold guns of all types and my childhood home was full of an ever changing inventory of long guns and pistols, from the most basic single 12g to british automatic revolvers. I could not help but catch the bug, and truly appreciate how the “bug” effects each of us in different ways.
This is a great forum which obviously welcomes anyone who shares in the love of shooting and days afield with a trusted gun in hand. There will be more of the bhe as she is given the maintenance and repair which was deferred during her recent past. Thank you for being such a welcoming group.

[Joe Graziano]

I've never been able to get past "who cares?" on this. It seems to be a thing we Americans obsess over. As has been mentioned here and often, the Brits regularly send back their guns for refreshing. This seems to be a good practice to ensure the gun functions well and looks great. Of course, we would all dream of finding that amazing double which has been sitting in a closet in cosmoline since leaving the factory, perfectly preserved, looking as it did in 1923. Those are exceedingly rare. And when you buy one, you also put it in storage so as not to decrease its value. No thanks. I hunt and shoot clays with everything I own. If it looks great and shoots great, original means nothing to me.

[Bill Murphy]

If the Brits are so comfortable with sending their guns in for annual checkups, why are such a large percentage of Brit gun victims of thin barrel walls and "wall thickness below recommended minimums"? It seems like most Brit gunsmiths, when getting a gun in for annual service, immediately reach for the reamers.