NEW PARKER OWNER IN NEED OF HELP !

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Dear Friend's

My name is Aristeidis Tsesmelis and i am from Greece....first of all let me apologize about my very poor english . I will try to explain
you my problem as good as i can.....

I do own a parker double barel gun that is in my family since the late 60' and i would like to have a full picture about its identification.....
Trying the identification link on parkerguns.org i still have a small problem understanding the grade of my weapon.....


The s.number is 72485 so i know that the making date was at 1876 .I got the date from the identification link , even if the gun itself says it was made at MAR 15 1875

On the guns barrel rip u can read the following PARKER BROTHER MAKERS.MERIDEN.CONN.PARKER SPECIAL STEELL , so from the identification link i can see that the barrel
type is the PARKER SPECIAL

On the barrel the FRAME SIZE BY GAUGE is marked with a '1' so i can understand that the gauge use is 12,16.20

My main problem is the HAMMERLESS BARREL TYPE BY PARKER GRADE......on the idefication link there is a example of one of the guns simular to the one i own ..the gun on the
picture dose have marked on its watertable the following


V
146217

I understand tha the V makes the gun a PARKER VH VULCAN STEEL and its serial number is 146217,the only diffrence with my gun is that above the serial number there is on more number ...so at my own weapon u can see on the watertable the following


3
72485
D
MAR 15 1875

Dose this make my weapon a PARKER DH - GRADE 3 TITANIC STEEL and is it a rare type or a more offten ?
The gun is still in use by my father and in a extremly good shape , also having ejectors...

I am sure u get a lot of questions every day but still it would be nice if u could give me some help with my question if u find the time !

[Dave Suponski]

Aristeidis, Sorry to say that your gun is not listed in the "Serialization Book" but if the gun is original and unaltered the barrel marking of "Parker Special Steel" would indicate a G or Grade 2 gun.

You can order a research letter from our home page and whatever info we have on the gun will be sent to you.

[Dean Romig]

It would seem that your Parker was originally made with Damascus barrels but possibly returned to Parker Bros. at some time later to have the barrels replaced with fluid steel barrels. Titanic Steel barrels were the standard for the grade 3 but the Special Steel was less expensive. This is all hypothetical of course and the barrel replacement may have been done by another expert gunsmith.

[Dave Suponski]

Thank You Dean. What Dean is saying is that a gun with a serial number in the 72,000 serial range was too early to have left the factory with fluid steel barrels. The gun would have been equipped with damascus barrels. All the more reason to get a letter on the gun.

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

First of all thank u very much for u intressed and help ! And again sorry about my bad english....
I my self am a Military Gunsmith of the Greek army , but still my knowlege of this kind of double barrels and there history is very low....
I did make a resarch on the pictures of the indefication links at the GRADE part....and saw the G Grade 2 pictures of the Hammerless type as the one i do own...
The G Grade 2 is not simular at all with the one we got from my grandfather but the engravings are 100% the same with the DH GRADE 3 Hammerless type....

But still in comper with the gun on the picture i told u about in my first mail...... http://parkerguns.org/images/ident/grade.jpg

my should just say D and not 3 as it dose....
72485 72485
D
MAR 15 1875

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Sorry wrong type o writing

My guns should say on D 72485
but it says 3 72485 D 15 MAR 1875

How can i send u a picture ?

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

I will try to send u a Picture via the Reply hopping that i will make it....5787

[Dave Suponski]

I was under the impression (wrongly) that the gun was a G because of the barrel marking. Look's like you have a D grade gun there...1 grade higher than a G...Congratulations

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Well i guess it solves the mystery haha....

So we can say that the Weapon is a PARKER DH GRADE 3 having a PARKER SPECIAL STELL BARREL ?

[Dean Romig]

Yes, that is correct. And the Parker Special Steel barrels were the standard fluid steel barrels for the Grade 2 guns but, again, they were less expensive that the Titanic Steel barrels so this might be the reason your Grade 3 gun has Grade 2 barrels on it.

[Dave Noreen]

From the picture and the description you have a gun that started life as a DH-Grade with Damascus barrels, built in about 1892. The dates stamped on the gun in various places are Patent dates and have little to nothing to do with when it was built. If the gun in fact has automatic ejectors, they were probably fitted at the time the gun got the set of Parker Special Steel barrels. It would be great if you could add some more pictures of the gun.

[Dean Romig]

From the picture you have posted your Parker doesn't appear to have ejectors as there are no ejector rods protruding from the front of the frame.

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Yes i see so i guess its a type of hybrid....how would that effect the value of that kind of a gun at that moment ?Still i have found some other DH valued but i dont think i could sell the gun my grandfather gave to my father....as much as i know the gun was bought from agerman officer at 1944 tha day ther german army left greece....in the late 60' the gun came to our familiys hands....

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Yes i noticed that the gun dosent have ejectors after a bit so thats the reason i was sure its a DH !Still i am curious about its value after knowing its a 2 type G and D weapon and now i do have a second problem finding out more about a second gun my father owns....but its not a PARKER ....maybe you could tell me any helpfull site i could use to find out ?

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

There is one more thing....we know now the barrels are made after the main gun was produced but the last 2 numbers of the main guns serial....can be found on the barrel...

[Dave Suponski]

Parker may have fitted those barrels at the factory at a later date. Again a letter may help solve this mystery.

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

I see....should i try to conntact them at Repairs and Restoration ?

[Dean Romig]

A PGCA Resaerch Letter would tell you all the recorded information from the Parker/Remington stock books and order books about your Parker if any such records exist. I have checked and there are surviving Parker factory records to support a research letter.









.

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

I am extremly thenkfull to both of u ,u did help me to solve this little mystery i was thinking of researching.....after i find something about the Parker i will give it a go with my grandfathers second weapon a German Krupp double barrel 16 ga.....
The bad thing is tha the barrel dose say on it ACIER KRUPP and as much i have found out the 2 companys did co-op for some of there projects....still the gun is in a perfect shape but dosent have any other date of construction on it.....will be fun to find slowly something about that one out to..!!! thank u again !!!

[Bill Murphy]

Acier Krupp means the barrels are made of Krupp steel. Acier means "steel" and is not a company. Krupp steel was used on many brands of gun including American guns. There may be another name on your gun or there may not be. By the way, Parker production has been suspended since about 1942. When we suggest you get a letter on your gun (a good idea) we mean that you should request a letter from this organization, PGCA, by accessing the area of this website that offers that service. Parkers are less valuable in Europe than in the USA, but your gun with its modern barrels, probably installed at the factory, is a gun of interest.

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

I tryed to post some pictures of the weapon maybe this will help u

2)This is the Parker site by site with the unknown Acier Krupp

3)Here u can se on the one site 3 72485 D MAR 16 1875 (must be the original date of construction )

Also on the other site i found some more dates.....PAT'D JAN 18 AUG 1887
MAY 7 OCT 1889 (not sure about the 87 and 89 part cant se them very well but that must be the numbers)

4)Here u can se the top of the barrels PARKER BROTHERSMAKERS MERIDEN CONN PARKER SPECIAL STEEL

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Last picture is tha base of the Barrels with the Number 85 last part of the 72485 serial number...maybe the number 85 was forget later after the barrel replacment

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

This are some more random pictures of the weapon

[Francis Morin]

Krupp or Krupp Flusstahl-- meaning fluid compressed steel- Acier is a French word meaning an alloyed fluid steel, possibly similar to NiCrMb AISI 4130 and 4140 used by Winchester and others for receivers here in the USA.

Welcome to the Parker gruppen. My oldest daughter is married to a Greek citizen from Athens, surname is Marinos. His late grandfather was a neuro surgeon in your Country, and his late father owned a chain of camera stores in Athens- Lynn and Alex met at the 2004 Summer Olympics, they were married here in 2005, and in October of that year had my first of now three granddaughters, Sophia Anastasia.

Unfortunately her husband didn't comply with all the INS rules and regulations and lost his temporary Visa to remain here- now a matter for the courts and lawyers I suppose-

I was also an Armorer (2112) in our Military Service years ago- believe in WW11 Greece used one of the many fine German Mauser BA rifles, possibly also the equally fine Mannlicher-Schoenaur Bolt rifles as well.

Curious as to how a German Offizier (Wehrmacht, SS, Kriegsmarine or LuftWaffe??) came upon a Parker and apparently had use of it in your Country until 1944. I have a 12 gauge GHE that was originally made with 30" Damascus barrels and w/o ejectors in about 1898- it is on the No. 2 frame. It was at some later time converted (possibly by a non-Parker employee, but highly skilled gunsmith) to an ejector gun, and now has a pair of Vulcan Steel 28" barrels- It is about my favorite shotgun for pheasants.

You have to either open the breech or do same and remove the barrels to determine if your Parker has ejectors- the other gents here are right, the ejector trip rods project from the front of the receiver and bear against mating parts in the forearm iron when the gun is closed and in battery.

Welcome to the PGCA, I for one am glad to us becoming more "International" in scope and membership. Some of the numbers you may be reading on the frame (water table flats) may well be patent date numbers, same as on the forearm iron. Always something new to learn, and as you may have guessed, all the fotos with such details you can provide will assist us in helping you identify your gun.

If you care to later post details of the 16 bore double with the Krupp barrels, I have two friends active in the German Gun Collectors that can possibly assist in identification of that BockFlinte for you. One is also "Eine Hauptbuchenmacher"!!

[Aristeidis Tsesmelis]

Dear friend

First of all i have to thank all members of PGCA for the wonderfull help on the subject
of my grandfathers weapon !I did never thought i could learn so much from u all !

I also hoppe u manage to visit greece hahah !

About the gun itself i saw that there is no ejector on it ,also the photos i have posted are not very clean because i took them with my cell phone camera....

The main mystery right know is why they did change the barrel and if it was changed at the Parker Bro factory itself ...

About the guns history i have to admit that not much is know,it apears that the german officer was a hunter so maybe he used the gun fro his hobby...my island , Samos is a extremly nice hunting ground and the german army was hear for more than a year after the italians left...

Now about the acier krupp i will try to make some photos about it soon and write down all the frame numbers i can find so maybe some questions could be answered...if u dont mind i will send u a mail about its as soon as i can !