Primer piercing and recoil pad

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Well I finally got a hammer gun (1891 12ga, 28" laminated) and there are a couple of things I'll have to get fixed - but I would like any opinions I can get before it goes to a gunsmith.
1) It has a 13" lop and I need more like 15" or so - it has the original butt plate with the "Parker dog" so does anyone know of a 2" slip-on pad? A new stock is not in the cards for this gun.
2) More importantly, in 3 out of 4 of the first shells I shot (RST lites, 1oz) the primer was pierced. In researching it on the site I see that some see this as not a big deal, but I'm not too excited about gases blowing back toward me and I _think_ that it should be a simple matter of a shorter firing pin. I do see that Cheddite is a favorite whipping-boy but I just think it would be good to not have to worry about it. Are replacement firing pins available, or will new ones need to be turned and heat treated?
All opinions welcome, including those who think it's a waste of time to worry about this.
THanks - Seth

[Bruce Day]

On hammer Parkers, the firing pins are termed plungers. A pierced primer is potentially harmful to the gun because the combustion gases can blow back through the plunger hole in the standing breech and then into the stock head and crack it longitudinally. Although replacement plungers are available , I suggest you remove yours, measure them and publish the length here. Ask others to compare theirs to yours to determine if yours are too long or if something else is amiss.

If yours are too long, although hardened, they can be ground to proper length. I do not know how they could be too long unless these are incorrect replacements.

As to the length of pull issue, there are several makers of slip on pads, Galco, Conn Shotgun, where one can be sourced. With any of them, add extra pads to suit.

[John Campbell]

Regardless of what you call them, the firing pins of this gun need to be assessed by a competent double gunsmith. There are a few reasons why your gun pierces primers. Length is only one of them. The correct reasoning of the problem and the proper solution needs professional help. It won't cost much, and you can rely on the gun from then on.

And, yes. Cheddite primers are not classic double gun friendly as a rule.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Naturally the battery on my calipers is dead. Will post OALs tomorrow; thanks for the suggestion.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Thanks; I remember seeing some smiths suggested that are not too far from me in far northern VA. I'll talk to them for sure but I really like to get other people's thoughts as well because I think that too often it's a problem if you don't have enough information when asking for a fix, no matter how good the gunsmith is. Of course I'll have them look at the springs as well, as I understand they can be an issue.

[Bruce Day]

Regardless of what you call them, the firing pins of this gun need to be assessed by a competent double gunsmith. There are a few reasons why your gun pierces primers. Length is only one of them. The correct reasoning of the problem and the proper solution needs professional help. It won't cost much, and you can rely on the gun from then on.

And, yes. Cheddite primers are not classic double gun friendly as a rule.


Mr. Rise, can you help our new fellow Seth by checking the length on your plungers so that he can compare them? On an 1891 gun they are most probably from a top action gun. I would help, but I am in SoDak chasing birds.

[Jay Baskette]

Seth, on the LOP, I use Galco slip on's, and add to the distance needed by cutting and inserting diameters of old mouse pads. I just trace the butt, and cut the number I need. On a good gunsmith, I use Gunther Pfrommer, located near Roanoke VA. He has done work on many of my side x sides, including my 1884 hammer. A great craftsman. Pfrommer Gunworks
Gun shop in Franklin County, Virginia
Address: 2954 Hopkins Rd, Rocky Mount, VA 24151
Phone: (540) 484-5555

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Thanks, Jay, I'll get a Decelerator and do what you and Bruce suggested. Appreciate the word of mouth on Pfrommer, too; I'm hoping for someone I can go see without burning the whole day but if he's that good then that may just be my day Friday.

[Jerry Harlow]

...A pierced primer is potentially harmful to the gun because the combustion gases can blow back through the plunger hole in the standing breech and then into the stock head and crack it longitudinally...

Bruce,

I thought the same thing as I had a cracked stock head on a top lever after firing RSTs and had pierced primers, but someone pointed out to me that on a hammer gun this cannot happen as the plunger is contained outside of the stock head. So even with pierced primers one should be safe. But I would wear shooting glasses, although the plunger fit is quite tight. From then on I did not worry about the poor thickness on the Cheddite primers in RSTs.

[Bruce Day]

Thanks Jerry. That makes sense. I had a pierced primer on a nice V Hammerless 16 owned by Dick Dow. Thankfully they were his shells ! The gases went through the hammer hole and blew out through the trigger slots on my finger. The stock cheek also cracked.

[Bill Murphy]

Investigation surely continues. I have been shooting everything under the sun, reloads, factory shells by Winchester, Remington, Federal, RST, Gamebore, you name it, and I have not had a problem with any shotgun, hammer, hammerless, you name it. Good luck with the search for the culprit, but 65 years of double gun shooting has not resulted in similar problems in my experience.

[Dean Romig]

I used to get pierced primers pretty regularly on two of my T/A hammer 16's - one more often than the other - and almost all were on the left barrel/hammer/plunger. All were cheddites.





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[Seth Mackay-Smith]

...replacement plungers are available , I suggest you remove yours, measure them and publish the length here. Ask others to compare theirs to yours to determine if yours are too long or if something else is amiss.

If yours are too long, although hardened, they can be ground to proper length. I do not know how they could be too long unless these are incorrect replacements.

With a replaced battery, the calipers work much better. Sometimes I miss verniers. At any rate:

My plungers are .992" OAL. They stand out just over .170" from the breech face with the plungers fully depressed, if that means anything.

What length should they be/do others have? (I'll post on the hammer gun forum as well)

Thanks,
Seth

[edgarspencer]

Cheddite primers are much more easily pierced than any I use in reloading their hulls. At one point I had a half dozen top lever 16s and two were notorious primer piercers. I removed them and had them ground to a very even radius as they were more sharply pointed. Never pierced another. I buy lots of Cheddite NPEs without any fears.

[Wayne Owens]

80% of the time, my 20 gauge top lever pierced the RST primers. The primers must be made of a thinner gauge metal. I know others have complained to RST to no avail.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Well I don't completely trust internet research, but from what I can gather they use Cheddite primers, who in turn use a little thinner gauge metal. Hammer guns, at least in some cases -including mine- seem to have pins or plungers that protrude further than others. When combined with a plunger that extends at an angle I could easily see that a thinner gauge metal would have a tendency to tear when subjected to the sideways forces from the angled impact in addition to the usual inward ones. I'm hoping to get some numbers from other members on what their plunger measurements are (without getting too personal) so that I have an idea where it would be good to end up for an overall length. The radii on both plungers are very smooth (thanks for the info, though, edgarspencer) so I'm not sure what else I could do.

[Daniel Carter]

Have a Remington hammer 12 that I made a new left firing pin, it pierced Cheddite primers and I shortened it 3 thou and no more problems.

[edgarspencer]

Seth, it isn’t so much they use Cheddite primers, as that they use Cheddite NPEs.
I don’t know if Cheddite even sells unprimed hulls, but that would be a costly step for RST to add priming new hulls to their operation.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Sorry, I see that I was unclear-what I meant was that the thin wall of the Cheddite primers, which I would think are what's in Cheddite NPEs, seems to allow the piercing or tearing of the primer wall during firing instead of the usual deformation. But that's just the internet and my impression!

[John Campbell]

Gentlemen:
For what it's worth, I quit using Cheddite primers long ago. I switched to Federal 209s, cut my powder charge by half a grain, and have never had another problem with cup piercing or ignition.

The upshot is that I don't have to modify a classic gun to accommodate a lousy primer.

[Richard Dow]

Unimportant Correction Bruce. That was my 20g VH. I hope South Dakota is productive. I'm sure it is.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

While I'm sitting around hoping for someone to respond with actual measurements of their plungers, could someone please let me know where to get new ones? I'd like to get a set and though I could simply make my own I'd rather have the benefit of a trusted supplier's expertise.
Thanks,
Seth

[Wayne Owens]

I measured how far the pins extended from the breach face of my 20 gauge top lever hammer gun and came up with .085" by using a feeler gauge. I refuse to grind down the pins on this valuable gun, so 20 gauge RST shells will not be purchased by me anymore. It actually angers me that RST doesn't use top quality components since this ammo is meant to be used in valuable antique firearms, some of which are irreplaceable.

[Dean Romig]

I’m sure Morris would be glad to listen to your concerns Wayne. Maybe he can offer a sulution - he has probably heard of it before...





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[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Thanks Wayne, really appreciate the reply. It does seem to make sense to simply buy better components; I wonder whether anyone had suggested to them to do that because we would be willing to pay for good product? There may be a mistaken feeling that people are too price driven to support such a change. But I'm very new to this and obviously don't really know.

[Wayne Owens]

There is a previous post on this site where one of our members informed the RST owner during a side by side event of this exact problem. The member stated in the post that the owner seemed to be unconcerned. It seems to me this post was about 2 years ago.

[Dean Romig]

It is my opinion that RST Classic Shotshells produces a good product, in fact one of the best on the market. The fact that a very small number of guns experience pierced primers doesn’t make their shells something less than a good product.





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[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Fair point. I'm always interested in how varied opinions are depending on the extent and quality (meaning, good or bad) of experience. I think I'll still follow your suggestion to talk to someone at RST, though; I've never seen an adequate substitute for actual conversation.

[Victor Wasylyna]

I use RST products from time to time and have never had an issue. RST services a niche market (and they pay for advertising in this niche market), so many of us (me included) are happy with RST. That said, don’t let the bullies on this forum convince you that shells made from Cheddite components are quality products. For many, they are the only option.

-Victor

[Brian Dudley]

Case in point... Cheddite hulls do not reload well. Hulls buckle when crimping. The hulls expand when first fired to the point of causing extraction/ejector issues on the reloaded shells. And even if they happen to reload well, the hulls last half the amount of reloads as AA or STS hulls.

But... I would say it is a moot point to bring up to morris in the hopes of a component change as the vast majority of RST customers likely do not mess with reloading. I go to the shooting events and see people buying a $1,000 worth of shells by the flat to shoot all weekend and the hulls all go right in the garbage.

The choice of components are likely for two reasons. Cost and achieving the aim of the company (recipes that meet the pressure and performance demands of classic guns).

[Brian Dudley]

While I'm sitting around hoping for someone to respond with actual measurements of their plungers, could someone please let me know where to get new ones? I'd like to get a set and though I could simply make my own I'd rather have the benefit of a trusted supplier's expertise.
Thanks,
Seth



I just went through my parts bin and pulled out all of the T/L firing pin plungers that I have. 9 in total. They measure from 1.003" to 1.016"

You're welcome.

[Seth Mackay-Smith]

Great, thank you very much, Brian. Looking at some old threads, others have eyed up a measurement of an inch, so looks like that was the spec.
Appreciate the info.
Seth

[Dennis E. Jones]

I have a very old hammer Parker that had what I believe were replacement firing pins/plungers that were not correctly shaped i.e. they were quite pointed. I've never fired it and never intend to as it is in sad shape but I did remove the plungers so no one else would try to shoot it.