Baker guns

[Lee Sherfield]

What are your thoughts on Baker gun quality, specifically the paragon. I am just absolutely intrigued by the dogs engraved on these guns , usually setters one side and pointers on the other . But mechanically / functionality are they quality ? Thank you for your time. Lee

[Garry L Gordon]

Don't know about your specific gun, obviously, but Baker made very nice, serviceable guns. I've found them reliable and well made.

[Dave Noreen]

They seem like very nice guns. I haven't shot any of mine enough to have any comments on reliability/longevity.

http://bakercollectors.com/index.php?p=1_8_Baker-G-F-Co-Guns

I'd take one of these --

76700

[Joe Dreisch]

I hunted an R grade 12 ga.( 30" Krupp, ext.) for about 6 years back before I learned about low pressure loads. It had a steady diet of Remington express #6 and the occasional Brenneke slug and never skipped a beat. I hunted a Paragon 12 ga. (24" ejector, Damascus) for a few years with target loads and some Navy Arms black powder high brass 6s- no problems, I also had an A grade 12 ga. in real nice shape (28", ext., Damascus) which I shot now and again with trap loads. All were solid guns which did not break in spite of my ignorance. I always loved the scrolls, dogs, and birds on these guns and have seen mention of Joseph Loy as engraver for the nicer ones. My guns all had the intercepting safety sears which was a very nice plus.

[Ken Snyder]

Lee,
Hammerless Baker guns are, IMO, some of the most undervalued American doubles. The A & B (and the later equivalent R grade) were all fairly uniform in engraving motif, and the vignette as you've described with Setter and Pointer is commonly seen. Paragon grade guns are often unmarked, but carry a higher level of embellishment/coverage. Dogs are not always seen on this grade. The Paragon was the first "custom" they offered and as such it is likely no two were exactly the same. I've seen many Paragon's with no dogs and multiple birds on each sideplate. The higher grades above Paragon are seldom seen, but there are known examples. I'm not sure there was ever a Loy connection to the Baker Gun Co.. The in-house engraver was an incredibly talented gentleman by the name of Frank Mason who was well known for his beautiful dogs. They used a combination of etching and hand engraving over time.

Researcher posted a link to the Baker Collectors site which will put you in contact with Daryl Hallquist. Daryl and Chris Schotz have collected data on hundreds of guns and are THE authorities on all things Baker. I would not hesitate to reach out to them to get more info on a potential purchase.

As for serviceability, the usual caveat applies, thorough inspection by a qualified double-gun Smith. Assuming all is deemed well and safe the gun should provide many years of excellent service.

My personal recommendation would be to only use low pressure 2 1/2" loads which are a little less abusive to the wood even if the rest of the gun is stout enough to handle it.

Best,
Ken

[Frank Srebro]

A gent who often shoots sporting with my gang is a Baker man and shoots them almost exclusively. His wife grew up in Batavia and he has some other early life connections with the town. He doesn't reload and is probably one of RST's biggest users although he also shoots LIGHT commercial 12-gauge shells from time to time. He has quite a few Bakers and hasn't mentioned any particular problems with them, though he almost always has a stock comb raiser, one of those stretchy sock type thingies, on the gun he's shooting that day. From that I perceive he either likes to float the birds or that most of the stock combs are too low for his physique.

[Drew Hause]

I have no idea why Baker guns were not more popular among turn-of-the-century Live Bird and Inanimate Target competitors, but were used very little at the GAHs.

W.R. Crosby was a representative for Baker from at least 1897 until 1899, twice winning the “E.C.” Target Championship of America.

At the 1899 Sportsmen's Show, Madison Square Garden - Fanning (Smith), Crosby (Baker), Budd (Parker), B. Leroy Woodard, Campello, Mass., (Remington), Heikes (Remington). Courtesy of Randy Davis.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/413522964.jpg

He used a "$30 Baker Hammerless" at the 1899 GAH, but in Sept. 1899 was using a Paragon.
He went to a L.C. Smith in 1900, after 1906 used a Parker, and later an Ithaca 5E SBT.

Charles "Sparrow" Young, using the nom de plume of “Robin Hood” (as a rep for the Robin Hood Powder Co.) used a Smith in April 1900 at the GAH at Live Birds, then broke 25 straight at the Grand American Handicap at Targets in June 1900 with his own Young Repeating Arms Co. two shot pump.
After that business failed, he was a demonstrator for Baker Gun (W.R. Crosby having left Baker for Hunter Arms in 1900), a trade representative for Peters, and in 1907 he was shooting a Parker.

There was no Baker trade rep at the 1907 nor 1910 GAHs.

Lots of Baker pics here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17434920

This is a Frank Mason engraved Paragon

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/413308224.jpg

I believe this huntress on the cover of the Dec. 1913 Outdoor World & Recreation is using a Baker

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22919279/406609707.jpg

[Brian Dudley]

The early Baker hammerless guns made while Baker was still alive are of great quality and the fit and finish was comparable to any of the other makers of the time. And their high grade guns were exquisite.
Their mechanism was a very simple one and is very serviceable. As far as the few American Sidelock that were made, I would say that the early baker guns were a superior gun to LC Smiths by way of overall design.

Of course quality in fit and finish really took a nosedive when Folsom took ownership of the company. The basic design of the gun remained the same. This is in the era that most people think of when the Batavia Leaders and Black Beauties were their main offering as field grade guns.

I am not up to speed enough on their product line offerings to know if they did offer any higher grade guns in the Folsom era or not.

I would summarize that the company and the design of the gun surely had the potential to be more than it was in the overall market and could have certainly had a greater effect on their following today.

[Drew Hause]

Baker left Ithaca early 1887 and returned to Syracuse to work with his brother Dr. Ellis Baker at the Syracuse Forging Co., which soon became the Syracuse Forging & Gun Co. They manufactured a trigger-plate hammer gun designed by A.C. McFarland, Patent No. 370,966 called the "New Baker Gun".
After the factory in Syracuse burned in the summer of 1888, they moved to Batavia and eventually the company became the Baker Gun & Forging Co. At the time of the move W.H. Baker was ill with TB and/or silicosis and died Sept. 10, 1889. Frank A. Hollenbeck was then plant superintendent 1890-1892.

Folsom continued to produce Paragon, Expert and DeLuxe grades, but in very small numbers; c. 1921 catalog

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/389022046.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/389022048.jpg

A late Folsom Paragon Ejector with much simpler engraving

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/392927741.jpg

[Dave Noreen]

The early Baker hammerless guns made while Baker was still alive are of great quality and the fit and finish was comparable to any of the other makers of the time.

W.H. Baker was dead well before the first Baker Gun & Forging Co. hammerless gun was produced. William H. Baker died October 10, 1889. The first Baker Hammerless Doubles came out in 1892. The Patent dates found on the watertables of a few very early Baker hammerless guns are all for Frank A. Hollenbeck patents. Frank took over as plant superintendent shortly after the move to Batavia.

The brief period of time that W.H. Baker was with the Syracuse Forging & Gun Co., the trigger plate action "New Baker" hammer gun they were making was based on Albert C. McFarland's Patent No. 370,966 granted October 4, 1887.

[Brian Dudley]

W.H. Baker was dead well before the first Baker Gun & Forging Co. hammerless gun was produced. William H. Baker died October 10, 1889. The first Baker Hammerless Doubles came out in 1892. The Patent dates found on the watertables of a few very early Baker hammerless guns are all for Frank A. Hollenbeck patents. Frank took over as plant superintendent shortly after the move to Batavia.

The brief period of time that W.H. Baker was with the Syracuse Forging & Gun Co., the trigger plate action "New Baker" hammer gun they were making was based on Albert C. McFarland's Patent No. 370,966 granted October 4, 1887.



As I said, I am not as up to snuff on Baker guns and the timeline. I was speaking of the early hammerless guns period. Like the first few thousand guns. I was under the impression they were while Baker was still alive. But not so.

[Dave Noreen]

Dr. Ellis Baker that owned the outfit was still alive. But, he was ousted by shareholders in 1898, and on April 7, 1898 W.T. Mylcrane, the secretary-treasurer, succeeded to the presidency. Things went well to about 1900, when he embarked on a prolonged illness and the company declined. Finally the board brought in Fredrick M. Farwell as an interim president. Then in January 1904 E.J. Mockford became president. Then he retired in January 1907 due to ill health, Fredrick M. Farwell again became president. So, certainly not the management consistency of Parker Bros.!! All this from the "Story of the Baker and Batavia Guns" in the April 1908, Field & Stream.

[Ken Descovich]

Here is a baker Gun Co. Shotgun I bought a few years back. Still don't know what model it is. It does have some nice engraved dogs on it though. Ken

[Drew Hause]

Ken: If a 3 pin A grade it will have crolle barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/342146733.jpg

If a 3 pin B, damascus-twist barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/271046410.jpg

The R grade had a dog and birdie, and less engraving. The R was introduced in 1906. The A grade was discontinued in 1908.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/271046398.jpg

[Ken Descovich]

Thanks Drew here is the other side.

[james nedela]

A couple pics of my B Grade Baker 12 ga. Made 1919, first year for the Folsom guns.

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2170/629648/24083822/414347599.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2170/629648/24083822/414347598.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2170/629648/24083822/414347600.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Beautiful contrast on those barrels James. Original finish?
Is the gun marked "Baker Gun & Forging" or (Folsom) "Baker Gun Co." with a "F" after the SN?

[james nedela]

All original finish, serial 4441. "Baker Gun Co." It does have an "F" after serial #.

[Drew Hause]

Are you sure it's a Folsom gun? The Bs were discontinued in 1908 and the SN would fit an about 1900 gun. I don't believe Folsom offered any pattern welded barrels. This is a c. 1921 Folsom catalog courtesy of Dave Noreen

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/326272899.jpg

[james nedela]

I checked the gun out today. No "F" after the serial. I go along with a 1900 gun, not a Folsom gun. I like that.

Don't know how I thought it had a Folsom serial#.

[charlie cleveland]

that engraving is unreal...I just don't know how they were so good....I would not mind having one of those nicely engraved guns....charlie

[Dave Noreen]

Is the gun marked "Baker Gun & Forging" or (Folsom) "Baker Gun Co." with a "F" after the SN?

Even though the company name on their letterheads was Baker Gun & Forging Co.

91965

The name on all the hammerless guns I've ever seen is Baker Gun Co. From this very early A-Grade one-pin gun onwards --

91964

91963

to this very late Batavia made Paragon --

91966

[jefferyconnor]

My Paragon is a nicely made gun. It seems in between a GH and DHE in engraving coverage and wood quality, pretty close to an E Lefever. Certain Paragons have that engraving that is to my eye, the best among mid-grade guns. The dogs have vitality, the birds look alert and real. The metal finish and fit is equal to my other three mid-grade guns, two Parkers and a Lefever, the Lefever has fancier, detailed file work on the frame. The earlier Bakers like mine seem pretty basic in mech. design, the lock up is like a Stevens 311, a slot on the rib ext. and a cam on each side of the lump that engages the frame. Later ones are said to have a Greener crossbolt, I originally was looking for one of those. They cock a little stiffer compared to my other extractor guns. I can't speak to longevity or being prone to breakage or not. The fluid steel ones like mine have Krupp barrels. Mine works fine, is tight and smooth. I consider it my best made gun due to the beautiful engraving, and certain aspects like the grip cap and forend tip treatment. There are other nice models besides the Paragon like the Special Paragon, A, B, N, R and S. Models are confusing, so read up on the website that was linked to. Paragons don't sell very fast, but aren't listed too often either. I looked for a couple years for a fair deal and the one I bought was listed a long time before I bought it. Later ones have blued frames, not case colored by the way. Here are a couple current listings you may have seen already, pricing is pretty robust, so these are probably just to look at--
This is a late one, might have the Greener crossbolt: https://www.gunsamerica.com/984793871/BAKER-GUN-CO-SYRACUSE-NY-PARAGON-MODEL-SIDELOCK-16G.htm And an earlier one: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884656731

[Ken Waite III]

An interesting leaflet from the Folsom era

[jefferyconnor]

Anyone have a picture of a De Luxe or Expert?

[Daryl Hallquist]

Is the Single Barrel Trap Grade offering above part of the double barrel gun catalog? Any hint as to the date of either ?

[Daryl Hallquist]

Jeffery C, here's a Folsom produced De Luxe , engraved by Kornbrath.

https://i.imgur.com/HMKYZkT.jpg

[Dave Noreen]

Is the Single Barrel Trap Grade offering above part of the double barrel gun catalog? Any hint as to the date of either ?

I have a very similar folder in my accumulation of Baker stuff. Mine has different prices and is marked Wm. Stein Company.

92309

92310

[Dave Noreen]

I also have a falling apart little 12-page color H & D Folsom Arms Co. booklet of their Baker Guns that has the same prices as Ken's folder. It only offers the doubles in 12- and 16-gauge. Page 8 is a foldout of the De LUXE GRADE --

92311

with the Superba Grade SBT on the other side.

92312

By these later style Baker catalogs the 20-gauge is included --

92313

Will always wonder about these 1928 magazine ad that show the Batavia Leader coming in .410?!?

92314

[Daryl Hallquist]

Dave, thanks. I did see a Baker 410 for sale some years ago. I think Turnbull had it, but the profile shown was a Crescent configuration, not a Baker one. I was not able to get additional info on it.

[Drew Hause]

The 1917 E.C. Simmons catalog lists the Black Beauty Special for $54.70 and the Paragon at $100.

The c. 1921 Folsom catalog listed the Leader at $48, the Black Beauty Special $64, and the NE Paragon $100.

[Craig Budgeon]

Baker guns made in Batavia, NY are of good quality. Bakers in grades above Parogon are very difficult to find. I have seen 1 Expert and 1Deluxe made in Batavia in 50 years of collecting. Even the entry level guns such as the Batavia Brush and Batavia Damascus are scarce which can make collecting Bakers a frustrating pastime. The best article on Bakers to my knowledge was written in the American Rifleman in 1968 by Ken Shanks. One other thing that Baker did that was uncommon was dropping grades and adding grades on a regular basis. The fact that the majority of there guns built in Batavia had damascus barrels didn't help there popularity either.

[Dave Noreen]

There were two good articles on W.H. Baker in The Gun Report. One by A. C. Atterbury in Volume 35, Number 6, November 1989, "Renowned Gunmaker W.H. Baker" and Volume 36, Number 8, January 1991, "New Notes on William H. Baker" by H.J. Swinney. They are of course heavily pre Baker Gun & Forging Co. There was a good article that covered all of the management upheavals at Baker Gun & Forging Co. in the April 1908 issue of Field and Stream.

[Robert Miller]

Lee,
Hammerless Baker guns are, IMO, some of the most undervalued American doubles.

Best,
Ken

I would have to agree with you, I bought a Batavia Special for $430! it shoots great and IMO for an American sidelock a steal at that price.

12g, 30" barrels F/F 2 3/4 chambers.....good duck gun!

[Nick de Guerre]

Allow me to plug Daryl, who who co-wrote (w/Don Hardin) probably the most complete article I've read on Bakers in the 1997 Gun Illustrated.

Separately, of all the guns I ever passed on, the one that eats at me the most was a Paragon with two dogs on either side that was fantastically engraved. I had my Lefever goggles on that day and was temporarily not seeing other good guns clearly.

NDG