4 gauge winchester shell

[charlie cleveland]

i just came across a pretty ratty winchester leader shotgun shell box..it has 2 new empties in it...this is a box of then new empties...4 inch hulls.....my question is i wonder what loading would be recommended for the old new hulls i just am interested for my information on old shells anybody got and idea what loading this might have been....i think the load of shot would have been 3 ounces of lead shot this is the amount of lead in a eley knoch 4 ga shell...on powder i would guess about 14 drams of black powder but these hulls i have are nitro powder recommended...anybody even got a clue....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, my sealed box of Eley fours is marked 3 ounces of BB shot. If I were to load those with smokeless, I would start with 30 grains of Red Dot with a bunch of fillers under about 1 1/2 ounces of shot. I would like that load so much that I wouldn't go any farther. Red Dot is a very fast powder but will not create high pressures in a big bore under light shot loads. 1 1/2 ounces is a very light shot load in a four bore so Red Dot is not too fast. If a slower powder is used, like Unique, pressure will be too low to make a good sound or good cold weather performance. Let us know how you do.

[charlie cleveland]

thanks bill for the info on the the loads...i m going to have to get me a 4 bore gun before i get to try out these loads....what i m interested in is how much powder one of these old 4 bores used in a factory loaded shell....i have a factory umc 4 bore loaded shell but the top wad does not give the loading in it...i looked in one winchester catologue it had some 4 bore boxes in it the old box i have is listed in it but know loading info was on them....any body have a 4 gauge shell box with loading info on it... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

You won't find a four gauge box with a smokeless load of a powder that is made today. You have to make up your own loads. It will be hard to blow up a four with sensible loads. It is hard to blow up an eight with loads that work in a ten plus about ten or twenty percent volume of powder. The problem is keeping the pressure up in the big bore. Just to be honest, I use my fifty years of loading twelve gauge shells, add the ten to twenty percent fast powder to make light loads in the ten, and don't progress to slower powders like Unique or Blue Dot until I want to load heavy loads in the ten or the eight. Even then, I go to the 12 gauge loading charts for my slow powder loads in the twelve gauge and add 10 or 15 percent for ten and eight gauge loads. The "big hole" makes the loads safe. Don't fall for the "boutique powder" trap. Use the cheap stuff we use for our other shells, like Red Dot, Unique, Blue Dot, 700x, you name it. Forget the powders that no one can find.

[Dave Noreen]

Mentioned in C. John Sullivan, Jr's books the gentlemen shooting on the bar at the Carroll's Island Ducking Club were using 11 to 12 drams of black powder and 3 1/2 ounces of shot in their big 4-gauge guns. From what I've found in old ammunition catalogs only Union Metallic Cartridge Co. and Winchester offered 4-gauge NPEs. Peters and Western didn't bother with this very limited market. From what I've found the big ammunition companies didn't provide loaded 4-gauge shells. They were either loaded by the users or local loaders.

UMC 1887 --

76693

76694

UMC 1901 --

76695

[charlie cleveland]

thanks researcher...i read some where about some of the loadings people used in the days of the 4 bore but have forgotten where i read it...i hope someday to get a 4 ga if i can find one... i have a few 4 ga loaded shells i have a coupla eley knoch some made in paris france and several empty hulls of forign make....i have tom armbrust book of the 4 and 8 bore it has several loads in it on the 4 bore but i just wanted to know what and if what the factory loads were...11 drams of black powder would be a handful.....charlie

[Paul Harm]

About 15 to 20 years ago, I forget how long ago, I blew up my 1889 Remington hammer gun with a extreme overload and bought my first Parker from a fellow who had many old SxSs. He was a railroad engineer that drove trains from Canada into Michigan and in his travels he bought many guns from Canada during their struggles with different gun laws. The whole second floor of his house was filled with guns. I got to hold a 6ga SxS and a 4ga single barrel gun. He even had a couple of shells for each gun. They were both heavy brutes. I've often wonder what kind of stories they could tell.

[charlie cleveland]

paul thats one shell i have never seen is a 6 gauge....i have a 2 ga and a 3 ga remington in my small collection...i almost bought a 6 ga muzzle loader a few years back... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

The Southern California Arms Collectors Association did a display at the 1987 NRA convention in Reno, Nevada. The display included "what is believed to be the only American 4-bore hammerless double barrelled shotgun, made by Charles Edward Sneider, 214 W. Pratt St., Baltimore, MD. It has 38-inch barrels and weighs 28 1/2 pounds." Their handout goes on to say "it is chambered for a brass shell that can hold 22 grams (?) of powder and six ounces of shot." I suspect that should be drams and would be the load the gun held, 11 drams and 3 ounces in each barrel? In my years of doing a display at the MACA show at Timonium, I saw two or three 4-bore singles by Sneider come in.

[charlie cleveland]

this 4 bore was much of a gunat 28 1/2 pounds i would have to hire some body to shoot it for me...i once almost got a manton 4 bore it had 40 inch barrels and weighed 24 1/2 lbs it was a hammer gun....a fellow that can handle and shoot the 4 bore well is seldom seen i could not handle one well myself even in my younger years....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

We Maryland collectors have no problem locating fours, double or single barrel, since our friend Bill McPhail always has one or two at the Baltimore Antique Arms Show. He has had English branded and Baltimore branded guns of very high quality and probably still has a few. Brass should be hoarded since RMC is apparently no longer taking orders.

[charlie cleveland]

maybe rm will go back to turning out brass again for the big guns....they made good hulls i only have 2 brass 8 ga they made and they fit all my 8 gas real good....i know you can buy plastic hull 4 ga shells from a guy in england and theres still a few cheap paper hulls on the internet you can get hold of from time to time...can you imagine seeing a big tom turkey in front of you at 40 yards and you got a 4 bore in your hands loaded with12 drams black powder and 3 1/2 ounces of no 4 lead shot.....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, any good machinist should be able to make a pair of chamber adapters to eight gauge 4 inch shells to fit in 4 gauge chambers. They will hold three ounces with no problems. Could someone give Charlie contact information for Dr. Bill McPhail. I have lost his number.

[charlie cleveland]

bill thats a good idea..maybe somebody will have DR. BILL S phone number....when i was a boy i use to look at the for sale ads in shotgun news it always had several 4 bore and 8 bore guns for sale a 4 bore double barrel was usally about 600 hundred dollars i seen a few at 400 dollars....i m sure the big four is pretty salty these days....charlie

[charlie cleveland]

here are a few 4 ga loads i took from tom armbrust book....4 ga all plastic hull allen myers....cci 209 primer....85 grains blue dot...2..080 nitro cards....3 3/8 alcan fibers....plastic shot collar 11/2x3 inch....3 1/2 ounce of2 lead.....050 over shot card....1153 fps....8800 lup.............4 ga jp s paper hull....win. 209......10 drams equal 273 gr ffg black goex....3 1/2 ounce lead no 2...050 over shot card...1253 fps...7680 lup.......charlie

[Bill Murphy]

They are some great loads, Charlie.