Correct me if I'm wrong

[Craig Larter]

So I purchased a 136 year old Parker from Morphy's Auction. I'm a resident of NY state. The gun is listed as an A or antique in the catalog. My invoice said they did not have a FFL on file for me. Morphy's will not accept my C&R FFL because ammo is available for the gun so they need to ship to a FFL. My read is the gun is pre-1898 so no FFL is required. But a C&R should also be acceptable in that the gun is over 50 years old. I will have the gun shipped to a FFL but what am I missing?

[Dean Romig]

As I understand it, if it will accept modern ammo all bets are off and Morphy’s may be right in erring on the side of caution for the protection of their business.





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[Rick Losey]

i understand wanting some form of FFL for their protection in the current environment

but not the reason for not accepting the C&R - because ammo is available - I'd guess its available for almost all C&R covered guns.

[Craig Larter]

So why don't they state guns regardless of age will only ship to a FFL regardless if they are an antique or C&R eligible. It sure would make it less confusing for buyers.

[Dean Romig]

I agree their policy should be clearly stated and posted for all buyers and sellers to see.






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[Bob Jurewicz]

I too have a C&R and live in NY. There is much confusion as to the meaning if the "Safe Act" relating to that license.. I have carefully studied the wording as it relates to NICS check and what is exempt. The law states that exemption exists if you have an "FFL". A C&R FFL is and FFL and qualifies. However, if a Dealer or individual wants to error on the side of caution they will not accept the C&R.
Bob Jurewicz

[Garry L Gordon]

Rock Island was recently audited and changed their policy on picking up guns to meet the Illinois law for C&R and modern guns -- a 72 hour wait period. I also noticed that they have limited what they designate an antique when some of those guns are clearly made before 1898. They are careful to the exact minute on when you can pick up a gun. Obey the law. Can't say I blame them, but it's irritating.

[Brian Dudley]

It is simply a case of them modifying the rules as they see fit to error on the side of caution. According to how the federal laws are written, they should ship the gun to a C&R if it is over 50 years old and direct to buyer with photo ID if made in or before 1898.

[edgarspencer]

The NY "Safe Act" won't allow a resident to receive lots of firearms which the FEDERAL laws DO permit. This underlying issue, which no one is willing to undertake, is States, passing (their version of ) laws which contradict FEDERAL law. Find a Constitutional Lawyer, whose kids are out of college, and things might change. Otherwise, you're looking at a minimum of $300K-$1M to take a case to the Supreme court.
Don't feel you are alone. You're not. I recently bought a gun from a CA Pawn shop, but had to have it shipped to an 01 FFL in CT. He was perfectly happy to accept my C&R.

[Garry L Gordon]

All of this has to hurt sales, don't you think?

[Brian Dudley]

This is a business that is constantly getting hurt and discriminated against. Nothing new. Just one more roadblock.

[edgarspencer]

Garry, it does hurt business for those selling below the “I don’t care” price point. If you have a C&R in a restrictive state ( CA and NY used to be the only ones) you need to find an 01 FFL who knows the law. The problem has become one where states quickly ram through a law, sponsored by legislators who, themselves, are not familiar with Federal Law ( I SO wanted to call them ignorant) Sadly, the days when politicians had the education, and balls, to get up in front of a committee, and say “ You Can’t Do That” are long gone.
As Brian says, we are an industry they are willing to throw under the bus. We raise children who are not like our fathers. We coddle and protect them until they take the path of least resistance. I genuinely fear for those of us who built our lives around a Constitution that protected what we love.
Sorry, I’ll get off my well worn soap box.

[Mike Koneski]

Y’all need to move out of NY and into PA. The more of you “gun guys” from NY move to PA, the more we can keep the Philadelphia leftists in check.

[CraigThompson]

I hate to say this as I don’t like any of the negativity towards guns in general in our country . HOWEVER , go to another country and for kicks and giggles let’s say a third world country and try to legally obtain or import a couple firearms . I’ve been toying with it in the Philippines for about three years now and I’ve not made any headway so far . It seems what I am going to have to do is open a buisness over there a pistol/rifle range to be exact . Then I can get permits for my wife to have several firearms . I don’t want much , an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel , a Remington 700 HB in 222 , a CZ 455 in 22 LR , a CZ 16 , 20 or 28 SxS and a 1911 in 45 ACP . Heck over there you even need to get a license to cast bullets and reload ammunition !!!!!! So even with all the BS we have to endure here we are leaps and bounds above most other countries .

[edgarspencer]

Craig, you’re correct that we are well off, however we are only doing so because there were sound minded people before us. Today, any rights we have are the remnants of what we had before. Next year, it will probably be less, and so it goes.
What will turn this around? Give nothing to those who do now wholly support the rights we have too casually considered permanent.

[Paul Ehlers]

Another point to consider.

There's a difference between what the laws & regulations are and company policy. A gun dealer must follow all applicable federal, state & local laws, but they can make any policy they feel is appropriate for their business.

[Dean Romig]

But can they legally redefine or infringe our constitutional rights?.... as in "...shall not be infringed"?





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[Craig Larter]

IF gun sellers make up their own regulations that are stricter than the law it is an infringement in my opinion. That being said in the case of the NY Safe Act it is so poorly written (purposely?????) it is interpreted in different ways. I was told by the Safe Act Hotline that transfers between NY residents requires a background check period, except between family members. Plus a C&R FFL is still valid for transfers from out state to a NY C&R Licensees. The Hot Line refused to give me that interpretation in writing, there in is the problem.

[Rick Losey]

But can they legally redefine or infringe our constitutional rights?.... as in "...shall not be infringed"?
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yes they can, the government is not supposed to, but companies can - such as a policy that an employee cannot talk to the press on an issue does not violate the 1st amendment . well you can talk, but you'll get fired :rolleyes:

so as long as they as not relaxing the law, or breaking it outright (such as discrimination) companies have a lot of latitude

[Jay Gardner]

So I purchased a 136 year old Parker from Morphy's Auction. I'm a resident of NY state. The gun is listed as an A or antique in the catalog. My invoice said they did not have a FFL on file for me. Morphy's will not accept my C&R FFL because ammo is available for the gun so they need to ship to a FFL. My read is the gun is pre-1898 so no FFL is required. But a C&R should also be acceptable in that the gun is over 50 years old. I will have the gun shipped to a FFL but what am I missing?

Companies chose to be conservative and require an FFL and I don't blame them. My guess is their insurance carrier may require all transfers be to an FFL, given the litigious nature of the country - better safe than sorry, and there is nothing that infringes on anyones rights in doing so. The definition of C&R is woefully outdated and at some point will be revisited and/or litigated.

[CraigThompson]

But can they legally redefine or infringe our constitutional rights?.... as in "...shall not be infringed"?





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If you have a liberalist attitude you can infringe or disparage anything you want and not pay the price !

[Jay Gardner]

If you have a liberalist attitude you can infringe or disparage anything you want and not pay the price !

Note: the Constitution is directed at governmental entities, not private entities. Except as provided by statute, companies can do what ever they want.

[Dean Romig]

True...






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[Jeff Davison]

My two cents. I have a great relationship with the ATF personnel I deal with. They're reasonable, actionable, and accountable. They're fast to respond. Saying that, there is quite a bit of misinterpretation of federal firearms laws. Locally, none of the auctioneers put firearms in their bound books and use NICS. The sales are considered person to person and in Missouri that only requires a valid state of Missouri ID. I drive 100 miles up the road toward St Louis and the auction houses are using bound books and NICS. They say the ATF told them they had to. I spoke to the ATF I deal with and was told they are trying to get the auction houses to use bound books and NICS, but they aren't required. I don't know if the auction houses are using the ATF as an excuse or if they've actually been told they have to use their bound books by their local ATF. Attending auctions, I tend to lean toward using NICS and bound books. I see three kinds of buyers at firearms auctions. The guy who had a particular firearm when he was a kid and there's one the same at the auction and he's going to leave with it no matter the price. There's the guy looking for a bargain. Then there's the criminal. When the bids on a beat up Glock 19 Gen 2 reach $500 something is fishy. That's what the ATF is trying to stop. I completely agree with them trying to stop the criminals. I tend to abide by the law whether I agree with it or not. If I don't like it, I have a Senator and a Congressman who are reasonable and paid well. I tend to err on the side of the law. I like people, in general, but I'm not loosing my FFL, house, day job, or freedom, because someone else who isn't going to be accountable, doesn't agree with a policy. I guess the easiest answer would be to get an 01. I got mine due to a similar situation as the original post.

[Dean Romig]

Unfortunately for some of us getting an 01 isn’t economically feasible. Here in MA a person is required to have a legitimate store to have an 01 FFL, and NOT in your home. But that’s Massachusetts for ya.





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[Kirk Potter]

I’ve bought pre-1898 Parkers from members here who wanted to ship to an FFL. Never considered it to be that big of a deal really. Almost safer that way, at least I know it’s being signed for rather than just dropped off on my porch.

[Rick Losey]

i have to admit, unless i know or meet the buyer- selling as an antique does concern me, I canceled a sale on this board because i did a quick internet search and found the guy would never pass a NICS for a couple very serious reasons. I was not going to be the one to give him a gun that ammo was available for.

we do have to be careful in this environment, BUT, to the original topic, a C&R should be accepted since the holder has passed the checks.

Years ago, if you had a NY concealed carry, you could get a check done every five years, and you got a certificate that gave you a pass on the NICS at a purchase.

[Brian Dudley]

I cannot imagine ANY situation where the ATF would be ok with an Auction house doing business in firearms without having an FFL, or at least using an FFL for the transactions.

The Auction house is a third party business that is charged with selling the firearms. No different than a gun shop selling on consignment.
Person to person would be as if the owner of the guns was selling directly to the buyer, without a third party involved facilitating the sale. And... person to person is only good for two residents of the same state.
Calling an auction house sale the same as person to person, is a MAJOR stretch by any means of the word. And I am very surprised that ATF would call that ok.

[Bill Murphy]

Dudley, you are right, at least I agree with you. The other poster is blowing very thick smoke.

[Garry L Gordon]

In my part of Missouri, and with the local auctioneers (and for what little it's worth other than to cloud the issue even more), if the sale is an estate sale -- one owner -- and held on the premises of the owner (or former owner), then guns can be sold to individuals without NICS checks. Any other kind of auction that includes guns, including an estate sale held "off-premises", sales must have a NICS check (unless, of course, the buyer is licensed). The idea is that an estate sale on the premises is consider a person-to-person sale. (BTW, these almost never happen anymore, and the NICS is used pretty much universally).

Now, if you want to go to Iowa, you have to have a license to buy a gun at an auction.

If you want to go to Illinois...well, that's another country and it has all of its own laws. I feel for Rock Island trying to manage the Illinois AND federal laws.

[CraigThompson]

I’ve bought pre-1898 Parkers from members here who wanted to ship to an FFL. Never considered it to be that big of a deal really. Almost safer that way, at least I know it’s being signed for rather than just dropped off on my porch.

You have a valid point !

I purchased a rather nice circa 1897 Marlin Model 1895 in 38-56 from Leroy Merz a number of years back and he shipped it direct to me via UPS no signature required . Now bear in mind I live in the country . And they just propped it against the wall right beside the front door .

BUT it was right there pretty much the first thing an unwanted visitor would notice and on top of that it naturally was in a cardboard box so if there was rain well you get the picture .

[Bill Murphy]

Getting back to Craig's original post, I am of the opinion that ATF does not want "non guns", in other words, pre 1898, in a licensee's bound book. Their reasoning is that a non gun is none of their business.

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Getting back to Craig's original post, I am of the opinion that ATF does not want "non guns", in other words, pre 1898, in a licensee's bound book. Their reasoning is that a non gun is none of their business.

My understanding is that this has nothing to do with ATF and everything to do with New York’s safe act.

[Dean Romig]

This just taken from the ATF’s website under “Questions & Answers”


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[Garry L Gordon]

This just taken from the ATF’s website under “Questions & Answers”


Hmmm, looks like North Missouri auctioneers are compliant. That is hardly ever the case.:rotf:

[Craig Larter]

The NY Safe Act has a universal background check for all sales and transfer with a few exceptions. The background check must be done by a 01 FFL. How can an 01 FFL do a background check on an antique firearm that is outside the jurisdiction of the ATF? That is why the NY Safe Act does not apply to antique firearms in my opinion. That being said Morphy's can make up any rules they feel comfortable with, but it is a inconvenience to customers.

Under the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, any cartridge firearm made in or before 1898 ("pre-1899") is classified as an "antique", and is generally outside of Federal jurisdiction,[8] as administered and enforced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The only exceptions to the Federal exemption are antique machineguns (such as the Maxim gun and Colt Model 1895 "Potato Digger") and shotguns firing shotgun shells that are classified as "short barreled" per the U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968, namely cartridge rifles with a barrel less than 16 inches long, or shotguns firing shotgun shells with a barrel less than 18 inches long, or either cartridge rifles or shotgun-shell-firing shotguns with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, I think Craig and I agree. Pre 1898 guns are "non guns" and the ATF considers them none of their business. States can make all the laws they wish, but it isn't any concern of "instantcheck" or ATF.

[Dean Romig]

Or either cartridge rifles or shotgun-shell-firing shotguns with an overall length of less than 26 inches.[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand this pert at all... can somebody explain what this means?





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[Craig Larter]

Dean if a gun fits the description of an antique but has been modified to be less than 26 inches overall then it is considered a firearm.

[Rick Losey]

from https://safeact.ny.gov/gun-owners

Antique Guns & Magazines
Q: Is there any exception for historic or antique guns and magazines?
A: Yes, they are exempt from the prohibition against transfer, but if the gun qualifies as an assault weapon or the magazine holds over ten rounds it must be registered.

[Dean Romig]

Dean if a gun fits the description of an antique but has been modified to be less than 26 inches overall then it is considered a firearm.

Okay , full length of the gun... I was thinking barrel length.





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[Brian Dudley]

The ATF does not care so much about barrel length anymore. Case in point is all these 14” pump action shotguns with birds head grips on them. They meet the overall of 26.5” and that is it. But they have been blessed as legal to sell.
Good luck explaining that to the local police that finds one in your car or home.

[todd allen]

I have no use for a shotgun that doesn't have a butt stock. Even less desire to shoot one.