12 or 14?

[Jack Hamner]

I have an old Parker hammer gun that I had a gunsmith look at for me. According to his caliper measurements, the breech of both barrels equates to 14 gauge, but the barrels are 12 gauge (.730). Just wondering if this would be classified a 12 gauge, 14 gauge, or something entirely different. Thanks!!

P,S. Many, many thanks to Mr. Romig who sent me an article regarding this situation, but which I didn't entirely understand! Guess I'm just not too gun savvy!

[Dean Romig]

It could be chambered for the relatively rare 12B shell which is smaller in diameter than the 12A or the modern paper or plastic 12 ga. shells.

A 16 ga. shell will be loose in a 12B chamber as will a 14 ga. shell.


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[Brian Dudley]

A lot of early Parkers are overbored. Meaning the bore will measure larger than modern nominal diameters. So, your .730” may actually be an overbored 14g.

[Jerry Harlow]

It's not going to change no matter how often this comes up. It is a 12b. It is not a 14:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=133088#post133088

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25849&page=3

[Dean Romig]

That’s right Jerry, that question was settled long ago by your measurements and Dr. Richard Hoover’s complete explanation of the chamber and bore measurements of early Under Lifter Parkers and the various shells that were intended to be used in them

Thanks Jerry for bringing it all to the surface for all of to learn from.

Dean





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[Jack Hamner]

It's not going to change no matter how often this comes up. It is a 12b. It is not a 14:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=133088#post133088

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25849&page=3

Thanks for your input and all your hard work checking out the gun. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not refuting what you have said about the gun--I am just trying to understand the early gunmaking and gauging processes and figure out how a gun with 14 gauge chambers is a 12 gauge. I guess I am just stupid when it comes to this sort of thing. Think I'll just stick with my L.C. Smiths.

P.S. What got me to thinking about this again is I took the gun down to Greentop's to sell and they labelled it a 14 gauge, but offered such a ridiculous price, I brought it back home.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Jack,
I do not believe you upset Jerry, and I can assure you that no one here thinks your questions are stupid. We all had to begin our learning curve somewhere. Enjoy your L. C. Smiths, but do not give up on Parkers just yet. Also, why not consider becoming a member of the PGCA so that, among the other benefits, you can begin receiving our quarterly publication " Parker Pages ".

[Jack Hamner]

Jack,
I do not believe you upset Jerry, and I can assure you that no one here thinks your questions are stupid. We all had to begin our learning curve somewhere. Enjoy your L. C. Smiths, but do not give up on Parkers just yet. Also, why not consider becoming a member of the PGCA so that, among the other benefits, you can begin receiving our quarterly publication " Parker Pages ".

Thank you for your kind words! I only have the one Parker, and since it is a non-shooter, am going to sell it as soon as I find the proper venue.

[Dean Romig]

Jack,

Briefly, the bore size is 12 gauge.

The inside of the 12B shell also measures the same as the bore - .0729”+/-

The difference between the 12B shell and chamber size and the 12A shell and chamber size is that the 12A chamber was designed to accept the paper shells of the day which necessarily had thicker walls than the brass 12B shell. 12A shells were also made in brass for those who preferred brass but the 12A chambers would accept both paper and brass 12A shells.




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[Mills Morrison]

Richard Hoover did some Parker Pages articles on 11 gauges and mentioned how Parker played around with bore and chamber sizes. Complicated but interesting

The best are the 12 gauges with 11 gauge bores. They pattern so well

[Mike McKinney]

I can understand why this would be confusing, it is to me. I think there are considerations that make it come together, as Mills states manufacturing companies were playing around with configurations of which some were standardized, remember the gun is well over 100 years old. With that said there are actual examples of 11, 14 and one of our most knowledgeable collectors is actively looking for a 13 gauge. The breech loading shotgun was a new thought as Parker began production, there was the brass shell, the paper shell and in the case of your gun the bore was bored to accept a shell which didn’t make the standard list. Nothing wrong, just a part of the evolution of a very fine and honored product.

[Jerry Harlow]

Thanks for your input and all your hard work checking out the gun. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not refuting what you have said about the gun--I am just trying to understand the early gunmaking and gauging processes and figure out how a gun with 14 gauge chambers is a 12 gauge. I guess I am just stupid when it comes to this sort of thing. Think I'll just stick with my L.C. Smiths.

P.S. What got me to thinking about this again is I took the gun down to Greentop's to sell and they labelled it a 14 gauge, but offered such a ridiculous price, I brought it back home.

Jack,

No you did not upset me. The "gunsmith" at Greentop probably knew zero about early Parkers, for if he did he would have measured the bore dimensions at the least and told you it was a 12 gauge bore. He probably does not have a bore gauge so one must question any gun you buy from them. They advertise that they "buy collections," and that is probably for quarters on the dollar. I know the guy who sold it to you also claimed it was a 14 gauge since neither a 12 or 16 shell fit the chamber. But the key was that the chamber dimensions that Mr. Hoover gave you the dimensions for are perfectly correct for the 12b shell .

As far as Greentop, the guns they sell are always way overpriced as if there is some hidden gold in them, yet they offer a fraction of what they are worth. I once took a 100% restored Parker to trade on an 80% Trojan, and they wanted to give me one fourth of their price of the Trojan for it. The only guns I have ever bought from them were two broken Sterlingworths and even they were overpriced but I knew I could fix them. But they have to pay a lot of overhead. The best way to sell your gun is to pay $40 to become a member and post it here with good photos and a reasonable price and it will sell I am sure. That way you will get full market value. Someone will want to add such an early gun to their collection. That gun sold for quite a bit of money at auction before you bought it after it had been traded in. I believe if you Google the serial number with Parker Lifter you may still find what it sold for at that auction. The only thing to be upset about is two different people who deal in guns for a living have twice told you it is a 14 gauge, causing you to not be sure what you have.