Titanic Steel Barrels

[Dean Romig]

Rummaging through my 'stuff' in my PC this morning I found this, among other interesting stuff.


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Titanic Steel Barrels
Announcement of Titanic Steel Barrels:
Sporting Life February 26, 1898

Parker Brothers, makers of hammer and
hammerless shotgun have issued the following notice:

“We can now supply you with a plain black
barrel that we do not hesitate to recommend
as a hard, tough and thoroughly reliable barrel
and in consequence is suitable for shooting nitro
powders.
"We unhesitatingly recommend them for trap
and pigeon guns when a party desires a barrel
similar to the Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel.
“We have decided to name them ‘Titanic
Steel’ by which name they will be known and
stamped on the rib.
They will be made in the $100, $150 and $200
list, and will be kept up to the high standard
that has characterized our guns of these grades.
Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn.


The Dollar Grades referenced are, $100 (Grade 3 or D) - $150 (Grade 4 or C) - $200 (Grade 5 or B)





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[Reggie Bishop]

That is interesting...........

[Mills Morrison]

Very interesting . . . Thanks for sharing

[Randy G Roberts]

Cool. Titanic was a good choice IMO. The name seems to conjure up images of indestructible barrels. Much unlike other names, Bernard, Acme, Whitworth for example. Even Vulcan, a fictional Star Trek being I think. Of course the Titanic did sink :)

[Dean Romig]

“Vulcan” actually conjures up ‘from the furnaces of Hell’ or some such volcanic beginning.





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[Mills Morrison]

Ask Wile E. Coyote about Acme

[Ted Hicks]

I don't have a Parker with Titanic steel barrels.....yet. Working on it.

Vulcan was a planet in the Star Trek universe inhabited by pointy-eared green people who prided themselves on their use of logic, referred to as Vulcans. Mr. Spock was the most famous Vulcan character of the series. "Live long and Prosper."

[Drew Hause]

Thanks to Dave Suponski, and published in the Summer 2014 Parker Pages, we know Titanic, post-WWI Vulcan, and Trojan steel were essentially the same; AISI 1030 and 1035 Medium Carbon steels. Titanic did have low levels of both nickel and chromium compared to the others, but it would not be an “alloy steel”. Tensile strength testing was not performed on Dave's samples for comparison.
Pre-WWI Vulcan was AISI 1015. Many pre-WWI U.S. maker's tubes were AISI 1020.

[Dean Romig]

Drew, can you explain for us what the different AISI numbers represent?





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[Drew Hause]

Oh my. Dean I only impersonate a metallurgist on gun forums.

Extremely short version is that for Carbon Steel (AISI 10XX) the last 2 numbers are the Carbon content. Parker Titanic Carbon was measured at .32% = 1030 with an industrial standard tensile strength of 76,000 psi

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/aisi-sae-steel-numbering-system-d_1449.html
Carbon steels
10xx Plain carbon (Mn 1.00% max.)
11xx Resulfurized
12xx Resulfurized and rephosphorized
15xx Plain carbon (Mn 1.00–1.65%)

Relative to gun barrel steel, the higher the Carbon content, the greater the tensile strength.

Summary of “Cold rolled” barrel steel tensile strengths. All can be heat treated for different applications (rifle receivers) to much higher strength, and yield strength matters also.
AISI 1005: 40,000 psi
Twist and Crolle Damascus: about 55,000 psi
AISI 1015: 56,000 psi
Winchester Standard Ordnance and other "cold rolled" Bessemer/Decarbonized steels and AISI 1020: 60,000 psi
c. 1900 “Fluid Steel” (Siemens-Martin & Krupp Open Hearth Steel AISI 1021-1034: 75,000 – 85,000 psi
AISI 1140: 85,000
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 and by reported composition was similar to AISI 1045: 85,000 psi.
AISI 1040 (and modified), Bohler “Blitz”, 4140 Chrome Moly (not used until after 1930s): 95,000 – 100,000 psi
Winchester Nickel Steel and Marlin “Special Smokeless Steel”: 100,000 – 105,000 psi
Remington Ordnance Steel: 110,000 psi
Krupp “Nirosta” (1912 patent NIchtROstender STAhl 21% Chromium / 7% Nickel Stainless Steel introduced in 1913): 114,000 psi
Winchester Proof Steel (probably AISI 4340) introduced in 1931 for the Model 21: 115,000 - 120,000 psi
Krupp Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl / 1895 “Special Gun Barrel Steel”): 138,000 psi
Bohler “Antinit” (Rostfrei Laufstahl chrome-molybdenum-vanadium introduced 1912): 138,000 psi

Phosphorus increases strength and machinability, but can embrittle steel, esp. if cold (ie The Titanic).
Sulfur increases machinability, but if high Sulfur/Manganese ratio leads to Manganese Sulfide inclusions.
Nickel & Chromium increase corrosion resistance and hardenability.

I think we have good data that the Belgian produced "rough forged tubes" used by U.S. double gun makers prior to WWI were mostly AISI 1018 - 1030, possibly rephosphorized, with Decarbonized Steel on lower grades.

[Dean Romig]

Excellent data Drew - Thanks!





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[Jerry Parise]

“Vulcan” actually conjures up ‘from the furnaces of Hell’ or some such volcanic beginning.





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Vulcan is the Roman god of fire. He was associated with and including the fire of volcanoes, deserts, metalworking, and the forge in ancient Roman religion and myth. He is often depicted with a blacksmith's hammer.

[Drew Hause]

"The Forge of Vulcan", Luca Giordano

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19228742/412908235.jpg

"Venus at the Forge of Vulcan", Jan Brueghel the Younger of Antwerp, Belgium c. 1605

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19228742/412908237.jpg

[Milton C Starr]

Ive always wanted to know whats the difference between Titanic steel barrels and Fluid steel barrels ?

[Dean Romig]

Vulcan Steel, Parker Steel, Parker Special Steel, Titanic Steel, Acme Steel, Peerless Steel, Whitworth Steel barrels are all Fluid Pressed Steel.

Twist, Stub Twist, Plain Twist, Laminated Steel, Damascus Steel, Bernard Steel are all Composite Steel and are made from individual strips or leaves of iron and steel layered in a pattern and then twisted and finally wound around a mandrel and hammer-welded for a desired pattern.





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[Bill Murphy]

Does Venus always hang around the forge without clothes? Oh, those sparks!

[Dean Romig]

And that guy in the red robe hasn’t even glanced at her since Drew posted that picture...





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[Ken Descovich]

The guy in blue pants sure has!

[Stephen Hodges]

I am glad that the Parker "Titanic" barrels were years before the sinking of the Titanic:) Could of been akin to naming them the "Edsel" barrels:rotf:

[Drew Hause]

Parker may have borrowed "Titanic Steel" from Robert Mushet, who adapted the Bessemer Process in 1856 by adding manganese (speigeleisen) and established the Forest Steel Works in Darkhill, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire possibly producing the first Carbon Steel.
He also experimented with tungsten, titanium, and other alloys and established the Titanic Steel Works in 1862 for production of his "Titanic Steel".
1870
https://books.google.com/books?id=9sU1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if Parker Bros. or their suppliers in England or Belgium sourced their fluid pressed steel barrels from this Titanic Steel company. That would certainly fill in some blanks.




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[Drew Hause]

Titanic Steel Works closed in 1871. It is certainly possible that another producer used that name later, but I haven't found it.

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA879&dq

THE TESTIMONY OF W.A. KING REPRESENTING PARKER GUN CO.
Mr. King: I can speak only for our own company in so far as wages go. For instance, on the question of barrels, Mr. Hunter informed your committee that some years ago some of the manufacturers of this country attempted to make barrels. We made some barrels: we built an addition to the factory, put in some up-to-date machinery, and brought some men from Belgium to show our blacksmiths how to do it. (probably reference to the Twist and Laminated Steel Parker barrels produced c. 1877-1880) We had to pay our blacksmiths not less than 32 cents an hour, up to 40 cents, and we gave it up, because the highest wages paid the Belgian blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of barrel are 11 cents per hour. That is what is paid to the highest-priced man employed.
Senator Smoot: In Belgium?
Mr. King: In Belgium: yes, sir. That is where all of our barrels are imported from, with the exception of our very high-grade Whipple (probably a typo for Whitworth) steel barrels.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Drew, I have referenced that testamony several times over the years.





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[Drew Hause]

Interesting. B.M. Jones & Co., Boston & N.Y. was importing "Titanic Steel" in 1891
https://books.google.com/books?id=-WqueYkMugsC&pg=PA1153&lpg

[Drew Hause]

I have not been able to find a U.S. registered trademark for "Titanic Steel"; by a mill or by Parker Bros.
Interestingly there was a Vulcan Crucible Steel Co. in Aliquippa, PA and a Vulcan Charcoal Iron & Steel in Crum Lynne, PA.

Steel Importers 1905

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/414282601.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/414282599.jpg

The Iron Age Directory, David Williams Co., 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=chtaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA390&lpg
Listed the following companies under “Steel, Gun Barrel”
Edgar Allen & Co. Chicago, Ill.
Bethlehem Steel Co., South Bethlehem, Pa.
Carnegie Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Colonial Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa.
Crucible Steel Co. of America, Pittsburgh, Pa
Farist Steel Co., Bridgeport, Ct
Wm. Jessop & Sons, Inc, 91 John St. New York
C. Pardee Works, Perth Amboy, NJ
Thomas Prosser & Son, 26 Platt St. NY
Vanadium Alloys Steel Co., Latrobe, Pa
West Leechburg Steel Co., Pittsburgh, Pa

[Christopher Tombs]

I've come across this thread while searching for information on my g-g-grandfather's foundry called the Titanic Steel Company in Manchester, England that operated from 1885 until about 1895. I'm trying to find out what he and his business partner Joseph Elton Bott (who we know was involved in munitions manufacture and, in about 1883, was president of the Titanic Steel Casting Company in the US) were actaully doing in the Manchester factory. They did describe their castings as Titanic Steel in one UK publication. If anyone can shed light on this or if this is of interest to anyone on this forum, please let me know (I do have some more information about Bott and my ancestor Samuel John Hackney).
Many thanks,
Chris Tombs

[Drew Hause]

Welcome Christopher.

1883 Titanic Steel Casting Co. given permission to add to their building in Philadelphia
https://books.google.com/books?id=kQVPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA257&lpg

1886 exhibit at the Manchester Exhibition
https://books.google.com/books?id=stVOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA36&lpg

B.M. Jones importers of "Extra Best Titanic Steel" ad 1906
https://books.google.com/books?id=CWU7-XPICOUC&pg=RA2-PA25&lpg

There might be mention of the company and officers in the archives of the Philadelphia and Manchester newspapers of the period.

[Christopher Tombs]

Thanks for your help Drew. I've found an interesting lead I'd not seen before in one article that talks about a "special cupola foundry design". The Titanic Steel Co. partners had a patent on a furnace design and fitted new furnaces at the outset. I know very little about steel manufacture, but I'll follow that lead up to see if I can make sense of what it all means. Family anecdotes tell us that the pair were developing a superior steel but couldn't get the temperatures as high as required. Without more details, which I suspect are just not to be found anywhere in the record, I think this will be like looking for a needle in a haystack! I'll carry on for a while though. Thanks again for your help, Chris

[charlie cleveland]

what about plain steel barrels i believe them to be same as remingtons de corbonized steel barrels...if i remember right they had a fairly high strengh to them..i have 2 guns with plain steel inscribed on both set of barrels...i have shot both gun...from what i have found out about them plain steel barrels were only on guns made in the one year of 1875.... charlie

[Albert Jaeger]

Can anyone suggest how/where/who could test my Parker 1936 Titanic barrels for weakness, hairline cracks, or fractures. I want to be confident before shooting Bismuth trap.

AJ

[Dean Romig]

Be confident.





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[Drew Hause]

Albert: you might review this document
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit?tab=t.0
There is a list of testing labs about 1/2 way down.
There are industrial NDT labs all over the country but very few do barrel proof testing.

Most modern makers use a combination of mag particle or ultrasound, then pressure testing, to SAAMI or CIP standards.
You could easily spend >$1000 on radiography, mag particle testing, ultrasound and proof testing.

Almost all of us who use vintage barrels, both pattern welded and fluid steel, do so after the bore has been examined for pits or defects using a bore scope, and the wall thickness, from breech it muzzle, is examined.
Then with shells that reproduce the ballistics of the loads the makers recommended, being cautious regarding recoil in light of the >100 year old wood.
Oz. of shot and fps are the primary factors to consider; not pressure.

[John Davis]

I shoot +/- 15,000 rounds a year at trap alone with my Parkers (SBT & SxS). I use mostly off the shelf Walmart 2 3/4 dram, 1145 fps and 3 dram, 1200 fps shells. I’ve had no issues. Have a trap friend whose modern CG blew up. Probably an obstruction. You have to be careful no matter what gun you are shooting.

[Craig Budgeon]

Proof loads are available to manufacturers only ( Galazan ). Magna-Flux testing is used to test aircraft, racecars, school buses, etc. It is nondestructive and the cost is reasonable. Some engine rebuilders do magna-flux testing or have a source for that testing.

[Stan Hillis]

What is the significance of my 16/20 DHE gun having Titanic 16 ga. barrels and Vulcan 20 ga. barrels? The 16 is the original set but I believe the gun was sent back to Parker for the 20 ga. set to be fitted. One forend fits both sets of barrels. Both numbered correctly to the frame.

I have read somewhere that this was done at times at the request of the owner to save $$$$ on the added barrel set. Is this a reasonable assumption, and if so what would have been the difference in the price? The gun dates to 1929, but no idea what year it went back for the 20 ga. barrels.

[Brian Dudley]

What is the significance of my 16/20 DHE gun having Titanic 16 ga. barrels and Vulcan 20 ga. barrels? The 16 is the original set but I believe the gun was sent back to Parker for the 20 ga. set to be fitted. One forend fits both sets of barrels. Both numbered correctly to the frame.

I have read somewhere that this was done at times at the request of the owner to save $$$$ on the added barrel set. Is this a reasonable assumption, and if so what would have been the difference in the price? The gun dates to 1929, but no idea what year it went back for the 20 ga. barrels.



That is not uncommon. Yes, the buyer was paying for the barrels. It was half the price of the gun. So a lot of money could be saved on an extra set by down grading. And the forend wood/metal would be finished to the same grade of the barrels.

[Brian Dudley]

My A-1 Special Trojan has Titanic Steel Barrels !

Harry

Just because someone marked them that way when they gussied the gun up, does not make it so. It is like sticking a dorsal fin on your back and calling yourself a dolphin.

[Bill Murphy]

And an A-1 Special with a set of Vulcan barrels is still a lowly A-1 Special. The 32" 20 gauge Vulcan Steel barrels on my GHE 16 were installed in Meriden on that lowly A-1 Special. My 16 is still a lowly GHE.