Case color restoration?

[Jay Gardner]

Once Parker/Fox/Smith/LeFever ceased production and before Turnbull and Gaddy, were there places where one could have the case coloring redone? Wondering when restoring old guns correctly started to become a thing.

JDG

[Robert Brooks]

Pachmayr was one. Bobby

[Bill Murphy]

Frank Lefever and Sons. Not sure of their methods.

[Garth Gustafson]

DelGrego

[Brian Dudley]

Delgrego did not do their own colors. They used Remington. To my knowledge.

[edgarspencer]

I was lead to believe Delgrego used a commercial heat treat shop.

[Brian Dudley]

That may be the case, but i am sure they were not doing it in house.

[Jay Gardner]

Keep in mind I’m asking about the initial period after Fox, Parker, LCS, and LeFever shut their doors and before restoring American doubles became a thing.

[Brian Dudley]

And both Delgrego and Lefever had their roots direct from those operations.

Larry Sr. Worked at Remington on Parkers and Frank Lefever worked for Lefever, Hunter Arms and Remington.

[Dean Romig]

Keep in mind I’m asking about the initial period after Fox, Parker, LCS, and LeFever shut their doors and before restoring American doubles became a thing.

So for the most part, that would have been the period immediately post-WWII





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[allen newell]

And DelGregos have used the cynanide process for their case coloring. To my limited knowledge they do not use bone charcoal.

[edgarspencer]

Allen, Delgrego does not now, nor ever did any case hardening. It was always sent out.

[Dean Romig]

And more recently the shop Del Grego sends his case coloring jobs to is using the bone-charcoal method from what I've seen.





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[Brian Dudley]

And more recently the shop Del Grego sends his case coloring jobs to is using the bone-charcoal method from what I've seen.





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Delgrego uses Turnbull.

[edgarspencer]

Like "fluid steel", "bone-charcoal" has become standard phraseology, when it is used to describe either the material, or the organic heat treat process. Both terms are used so often, they are automatically considered correct. Fact is, all steel was, at it's origin, fluid. 'Fluid' somehow got tossed into many peoples description of barrels other than composite, such as damascus. Maybe Sir Joseph Whitworth's process of forcing molten steel, under pressure, into ingot molds is the source.
Likewise 'Bone' got tossed into the name for a heat treat process which imparts a carbonaceous layer when steel reaches it's upper critical temperature.
Bone is simply one of the ingredients some used to add carbon, but many organic materials, high in carbon, are used.
Two of the most commonly used ingredients, used by Winchester Repeating Arms, and Colt Patent Firearms Mfg Co. were scraps of leather shoe soles, and horse hoof clippings. In fact, Colt didn't use bone,
per se, but coarsely ground bone, or, bone meal.

[Dean Romig]

Who, in the collective opinion of our members, is best at replicating original Parker Brothers case colors?





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[edgarspencer]

Who, in the collective opinion of our members, is best at replicating original Parker Brothers case colors?





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That’s as dangerous as politics and religion.
I can’t speak to the present day, but Brad was, in my opinion, the closest. I honestly believe today’s generation is trying to get too exotic with their packing recipes. I haven’t seen any of Doug Turnbull’s Parker work, but I sure don’t think old Oliver would be too pleased with what he does to an 1886 or ‘92 & ‘94

[Stephen Hodges]

Dean, that truly is the "ten thousand dollar question". A few years ago I sent off a PHE 16 Gauge ejector gun with Parker Steel Barrels for a "complete restoration" to include new case colors. I will not say who did the job but he is well respected in this community. I saw several examples of his work and felt confident that the job would come out great. When I received the gun back I was literally sick to my stomach. The case colors were splotchy and clownish in nature. Perhaps it was the way that specific guns metal took the process, I do not know, but it was horrible. I quickly sold the gun and moved on. I will never have another gun case colored again.

[edgarspencer]

Perhaps it was the way that specific guns metal took the process.

Steve, all Parker hammerless receivers started life as a forging. Billings & Spencer, and later, Bourdon Forge made these for Parker and they would have been received in a 'normalized and tempered' state. The short answer is they are a very uniform hunk of metal.
The reason for pattern variation (The Good, The Bad, and the Just Plain Ugly) is entirely dependent on the process, but not the part itself. Poor packing of one receiver, using the same recipe as another, well packed receiver, will be so entirely different, one could easily assume they were done by different heat treaters. The random nature of all Parkers is due to the fact that no receiver can be packed the same with respect to orientation in the packing box, exact mixture of ground charcoal, and other carbon bearing organic materials, heating, and final quenching.
At Colt's, 4 SAA receivers would be packed in the same packing box, cover then compressed, and clamped. After the quench, no two parts would look exactly alike.

[Marty Kohler]

These both were case colored by Brad just prier to his passing.....I was satisfied but do they replicate original colors? I will leave that to you.

[allen newell]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Bill Murphy]

Marty's guns are quite nice, well up to my standards. I have had one gun recased by Turnbull and it is beautiful, in my opinion. It was the final step in a restoration of a VH that started in the early seventies and involved more than a half dozen craftsmen. Doug's bill was a bit high, but he (or Jason Burden who handled my job) insisted on improving on some engraving restoration that had already been done by another engraver. I also sent the gun assembled and his prices are lower if you send the parts disassembled. You get what you pay for and I am satisfied with the end result. Now that we can't conveniently use Brad's services, Turnbull represents the safest road.

[Jay Gardner]

Now that we can't conveniently use Brad's services, Turnbull represents the safest road.

Not sure what you mean by that. Care that elaborate?

JDG

[allen newell]

About 8 or 9 yrs ago I had DelGrego fully restore my 16 ga VH. The colors came out very well. I think Turnbull may have done them but I'm not certain. They look like his colors. But it could have been someone else.

[Bill Murphy]

Jay, after almost four years, I still don't know how to answer your question.

[Alfred Houde]

My guess would be that after what we now refer to as the classic manufacturers (Fox, Lefever, Hunter Arms, Parker, etc.) ceased operations, most owners were not all that concerned with or wrapped up in restorations. Most guys bought those guns to use and hunt with, most took good care of them, and the collectors did a good job maintaining their guns for that purpose.

I doubt that there was much if any focus on "restoration" during World War II, with the focus on repair and keeping them working in the field and marsh since manufacturing was directed towards the war effort.

As has been written many times, the returning Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airman shifted their interest to autoloading rifles and shotguns.

When I became interested in hunting and shooting in the early to mid-1970's my friends and I all coveted either a Remington Model 870 or Ithaca Model 37. A Browning Auto-5 was viewed as a "money gun." It was the then "old-timers" that had double-guns and again, they were viewed as a tool.

Seeing nice trap guns at the range usually meant Ithaca or L.C. Smith. My memory is they cared about shooting well and winning, not getting them re-case colored.

So, in my opinion towards the original question I think that there was probably a small cottage industry of guys who did that type of work and I'm sure Colt and S&W offered this type of service. But what we refer to today as a complete or historically accurate restoration of classic double-guns is a fairly recent phenomenon I would guess.

I think Doug T. left his Dad's shop around the late 1990's to go his own way and build what it is today.

[Gerald McPherson]

Was not Oscar Gaddy considered one of the best a few years back?

[Dean Romig]

Yes he was Gerald, and he did a very nice restoration of composite barrels as well.





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[Craig Budgeon]

Frank LeFever Gunsmiths of Lee Center, NY use to flame color receivers for $40 or have Delgrego cyanide them at Remington in the early 1970's.

[chris dawe]

Guys all this talk of originality honestly baffles me,how do anyone know today what was original 120 years ago ? Sure something could've been written down ,someone else can discover it and follow directions word for word,but with something like cch were all subtle nuances followed directly ? Are the materials in use from the water to charcoal to heat source the exact same? There's been documented finds of pristine unused guns ,but was the same person there when the gun was bought 100 years ago are they the same person who finds it in a closet looking through the same eyes? Has time taken no effect ? Did someone in the 1960s start up cch as there was a personal desire or sound need for the long forgotten service ,could they not claim that thier rediscovery of the process is exactly like the original? Who the hell could argue? Great tactic if you ask me ...there are subtle things in particular makers that are of note, like the lighter center of the Parker floorplate ....a clear lacquer can be used gloss or satin ,colors can be buffed out before lacquer like I pretty sure was done in Michigan
Same goes for any of the restoration process ,it's very difficult to exactly duplicate what was done so long ago metal or wood ,good work and process does ,although speak for itself ...if you want a gun to look as good as possible don't hold back on the restoration process ,and in the end if the individual is happy with thier "new " gun that's really all that counts and any of the old relics saved and put back in use is a battle won for the future of our pastime

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

At the time I thought Brad was as close as you could get to original

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

double click for enlargement

[allen newell]

As I mentioned previously Brad re-case colored a 20 ga Trojan as part of a total restoration. When I spoke with Brad about the case coloring he indicated to me that he alone did all the case coloring in the shop. That was one aspect of his work that he was very proud of. I thought his colors came as close to "original looking' Parker colors as possible. Since Brad's unfortunate passing, I don't know if his son, Parker, has picked this service up or sending it out. We lost a terrific craftsman and great guy when Brad passed. May he rest in peace, he certainly earned it.

[Garry L Gordon]

Allen, I also miss Brad very much. I took annual trips to GR to visit with him and bring guns for his counsel and work. He did indeed do his own case coloring according to him, at least during those years I had guns done. I think his CC work looked as good as that of Turnbull in the guns I have observed first hand (obviously, a small sample size).

[Robert Brooks]

Bill Schwarz's colors match original Fox and Parker colors to me. Bobby

[allen newell]

Edgar and Dean, about 12 yrs ago I dropped of my grandfather's/Dad's 16 ga VH for complete restoration. All new wood to my dimensions, re-case color etc. Dean, I believe you have seen and handled this 16 ga VH some time ago. I'm told that Lawrence sent the metal out for case color via cyanide process. Dean, I seem to recall that after you looked at the gun. that you commented that the colors were the result of a cynanide process. 12 yrs ago my knowledge of Parkers was very limited tho I grew up shooting this VH exclusively. Never studied them. But I did know from talking with Lawrence that he did send his guns out for coloring. Frm whom I do not know and frankly didn't bother inqiring. I was just glad that it was in the hands of a smith with substantial Parker experience.

[Chris Travinski]

Bill Schwarz's colors match original Fox and Parker colors to me. Bobby

Bobby,

Do you have any pictures of Bill Schwarz's case color work? I'd love to see it, the most crucial part of a restoration in my opinion.

[Jean Swanson]

"Creak Side" used charcoal case hardening---close to the original CC---I am not sure, but I think it was Doug Turnbull's dad

[John Dallas]

Has anyone had any recent experience with Batchelder's? My understanding was that Brad had taught his son the secrets to the case coloring which Brad had mastered

[Brian Dudley]

Has anyone had any recent experience with Batchelder's? My understanding was that Brad had taught his son the secrets to the case coloring which Brad had mastered

Bachelders is basically done. For all intents and purposes as I understand it, the gunsmithing side of the business is belly up. It really is for the good of the double gun community. There was way too much BS and poor work coming out of there.

[Rick Losey]

"Creak Side" used charcoal case hardening---close to the original CC---I am not sure, but I think it was Doug Turnbull's dad

yes, the Creekside gun shop was run by Doug Turnbull's father - Doug actually started his CC efforts in the store. The father closed the store (if I remember correctly) after a break in at the store, with some of the stolen handguns ending up in the nearby streets of Rochester.

I went by the old store site last week, the big faded wooden sign is barely readable.

[Ken Burgess]

That was the only gun shop I knew of where you could try before you buy. It was a little scary sometimes. There was a shop in Geneva that had to close after they were robbed, it seems when a gun shop is robbed and guns end up on the street it's the fault of the business not the bad guy.