sxs 8 gauge muzzleloader

[Milton C Starr]

So I have been browsing for a new purchase this week and I was looking pretty hard at a sharps or perhaps my first lever action. Then I found a sxs 8 gauge in decent condition a muzzleloader . My first thought when I saw it for sale was I better grab it before Charlie sees it haha . I used to be a member on here years ago and I now I guess with this latest purchase I am being pulled back into vintage shotguns haha .

Its a Belgian made sxs 8 gauge with london marked barrels 39" and weighs 16lb 3oz . Seems to be on the heavy side compared to other 8 gauge doubles I have looked at both muzzle loaders and cartridge guns. The barrels appear to be steel and not damascus ? From the close up pictures however I wont know for sure until I have it in hand . I am thinking of having the barrels restored to see what they looked like when they were young . I know there are few gunsmiths who can really make these old girls shine .

[Harry Collins]

It would be great in the punt for picking off stragglers after you let the big dog speak.

[charlie cleveland]

this looks like a really well made gun pretty fancy for her time.... i m sure shes a keeper....charlie

[Milton C Starr]

It would be great in the punt for picking off stragglers after you let the big dog speak.

It does look like a gun used for market hunting .
At 16lbs i bet shes a soft shooter :rotf::rotf:

Too bad we cant hunt our non migratory geese population .

[Milton C Starr]

this looks like a really well made gun pretty fancy for her time.... i m sure shes a keeper....charlie

Yeah Im thinking those are probably some thick barrels given its weight .
Charlie any idea where I could find a book for shooting bp in these big bore shotguns ? Ive been wanting a 8 gauge for years and didnt matter to me if it was a cartridge gun or muzzleloader a 8 gauge is a 8 gauge haha .

I wonder what time period it is from , I was think maybe 1850s or so .
Here in Georgia 8 gauge is legal for turkey so I may have to give that a try next season .

[Harry Collins]

4oz of shot and 20 drams of black powder might throw a lengthy shot string.

[Milton C Starr]

4oz of shot and 20 drams of black powder might throw a lengthy shot string.

That sounds like a healthy load haha.
I was thinking some between 2-3oz .

Would these barrels originally have been brown ?
I'm not familiar with a black finish like that on guns of this age . I thought perhaps that was the original finish because the gold rings at the breach are not covered up and they look to match the age of the gun . I thought Damascus was the most popular material for shotguns in the 19th century .

Any recommendations on who could do restoration work ?

[Harry Collins]

I got confused thinking it was a 4 bore.

[Milton C Starr]

I got confused thinking it was a 4 bore.

I had looked at a 4 bore single but decided that the single was too light weight for me .

Ed rayl I believe is his name makes a true 4 gauge barrel.
1.053" iirc but I couldn't find anyone who builds sxs muzzleloader .

Before I found this 8 gauge I had looked at 8 gauge barrels from rice . But once again couldn't find any muzzleloader builders who could build a sxs .

[Milton C Starr]

I just noticed it has dual key ways or what ever they are called for the barrels to lock into place . That is unusual I dont think I have ever seen that on a shotgun before .

[CraigThompson]

Ed rayl I believe is his name makes a true 4 gauge barrel.
1.053" iirc but I couldn't find anyone who builds sxs muzzleloader .

Before I found this 8 gauge I had looked at 8 gauge barrels from rice . But once again couldn't find any muzzleloader builders who could build a sxs .

Ed Rayl makes very good ML barrels I've shot several guns that were built around his barrels . Matter of fact a friend was having a SxS 12 gauge flinter built around a set of Rayl barrels unfortunately my friend met his demise before the gun was finished .

Most decent ML builders are going to charge a good fee to build any ML much less a SxS .:eek:

[Milton C Starr]

Ed Rayl makes very good ML barrels I've shot several guns that were built around his barrels . Matter of fact a friend was having a SxS 12 gauge flinter built around a set of Rayl barrels unfortunately my friend met his demise before the gun was finished .

Most decent ML builders are going to charge a good fee to build any ML much less a SxS .:eek:

I could have had a single 8 or 4 bore flinterbuilt for around 2,000$ but I really wanted a sxs in 8 gauge pretty much my dream shotgun . I think the single 4 bore would probably have weighed 16lbs which is way too light to me for a 4 bore .

I found a parker 8 gauge that could possibly be mine eventually .
This 8 gauge muzzleloader looked to be in better shape than alot of the ones I was looking at on gunsinternational so I jumped on it .

[CraigThompson]

I could have had a single 8 or 4 bore flinterbuilt for around 2,000$ but I really wanted a sxs in 8 gauge pretty much my dream shotgun . I think the single 4 bore would probably have weighed 16lbs which is way too light to me for a 4 bore .

I found a parker 8 gauge that could possibly be mine eventually .
This 8 gauge muzzleloader looked to be in better shape than alot of the ones I was looking at on gunsinternational so I jumped on it .

As near as I can figure my friends SxS would have cost him about 16G's by the time it was finished . I'll refrain from naming the builder as I tend to think he was taking advantage of my friend . I think for a flinter double 8-10 G's is certainly in the spectrum .

[Milton C Starr]

As near as I can figure my friends SxS would have cost him about 16G's by the time it was finished . I'll refrain from naming the builder as I tend to think he was taking advantage of my friend . I think for a flinter double 8-10 G's is certainly in the spectrum .

I know a custom sxs builder who does both cartridge and muzzleloading sxs . He took on a build once for 10k and it ended up taking 1,000 hours to complete. He said he'd never build one again at that price . I appreciate the work that goes into making a good sxs . I have got to hold and shoot alot of fine sxs from when I worked on a quail plantation . The best looking sxs I seen was a Abercrombie & Fitch . I have never seen another A&F gun like it either . The stock looked almost as if it was solid ebony and it wasn't dark for years of oil either . The color case hardened was the most striking I have ever seen and the bluing on the barrels was dark as the abyss and very well polished . I have never seen another like it . Abercrombie and Fitch I believe they were just the importers wish I had known who made it .

Id say 99% of the clients we had wouldn't pay for than 5gs for a sxs or o/u . Beretta and browning were the most popular.

[Milton C Starr]

It would be great in the punt for picking off stragglers after you let the big dog speak.

I seen a identical one to this one today that had sold in the past .
It had iron fittings instead of brass but looked just like this one.
The seller stated the family who had owned it used it for punt shooting back in the market days . And the loop on the bottom of the iron grip they used to tie it into place when it was mounted in the punt . Just something interesting I thought I would share .

[John Dallas]

Often, guns which were secured to the punt, when fired, would collapse the boat. I think they finally figured out that the best thing to do was cushion the recoil with tight bags of marsh grass as recoil pads behind the gun, in front of the transom

[Harry Collins]

I've seen some punt guns with rope to absorb recoil much like the cannon aboard sailing ships. This in addition to what John mentioned.

[Milton C Starr]

I've seen some punt guns with rope to absorb recoil much like the cannon aboard sailing ships. This in addition to what John mentioned.

Seems like these 8 gauge market guns are kind of a in between of a true punt gun and a shoulder fired gun . I have read a little of them being used for both . At 16lbs it is heavy but still litter than a 4 bore fowling piece haha .

[Daniel Carter]

I had the good fortune to know a market hunter when I first started hunting. He was a cousin to my hunting partner and a taxidermist that would mount and sell the birds we shot and we could pick up the meat the next day. He told us of baiting a pond near his house morning and night then using 2 10 doubles, 2 barrels on the water rested on a log the second 2 as the survivors rose then shooting the cripples with a Winchester 97 with an extended magazine. He gathered them up and sent them to Boston on the morning train getting payment on the return train.He did this twice a day until '' the law came on them. An 8 would have made his work easier

[Milton C Starr]

I had the good fortune to know a market hunter when I first started hunting. He was a cousin to my hunting partner and a taxidermist that would mount and sell the birds we shot and we could pick up the meat the next day. He told us of baiting a pond near his house morning and night then using 2 10 doubles, 2 barrels on the water rested on a log the second 2 as the survivors rose then shooting the cripples with a Winchester 97 with an extended magazine. He gathered them up and sent them to Boston on the morning train getting payment on the return train.He did this twice a day until '' the law came on them. An 8 would have made his work easier

Reminds me of the hunters who would have 8 gauge shells made with 10 gauge headstamps so they could still use them for waterfowl :rotf: .

I suppose even back when they were legal 8 gauges were not common.

[Russell E. Cleary]

Seems like these 8 gauge market guns are kind of a in between of a true punt gun and a shoulder fired gun . I have read a little of them being used for both . At 16lbs it is heavy but still litter than a 4 bore fowling piece haha .

Milton:

If you have not viewed the youtube video that PGCA Member "OH Osthaus" posted a while back about the E. M. Reilly 8-bore used for wildfowling on the marsh in Scotland, it is well-worth seeing -- or even revisiting, as I just did.

William Wykes, his dog "Jake" and the 8-bore connect with a Goose, leading it by an estimated 14 feet.

Granted he's a robust-looking young fellow, and all of us aren't; but it is the best kind of outdoor story. His enthusiasm for the whole panoply -- the legacy 8-bore; the wetlands; the weather; the traditions involved; right down to the ritual cleaning of the gun, is inspiring.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u9oyRDslU8

[Milton C Starr]

Milton:

If you have not viewed the youtube video that PGCA Member "OH Osthaus" posted a while back about the E. M. Reilly 8-bore used for wildfowling on the marsh in Scotland, it is well-worth seeing -- or even revisiting, as I just did.

William Wykes, his dog "Jake" and the 8-bore connect with a Goose, leading it by an estimated 14 feet.

Granted he's a robust-looking young fellow, and all of us aren't; but it is the best kind of outdoor story. His enthusiasm for the whole panoply -- the legacy 8-bore; the wetlands; the weather; the traditions involved; right down to the ritual cleaning of the gun, is inspiring.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u9oyRDslU8

Thank you I will give it a watch , have you seen this video of this english gentleman hunting with his Tolley 8 gauge ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJS8PBqdF8g

I may get the chance to try the 8 gauge out on coyotes this year .
I know alot of people use 12 gauges and some 10s so I figure the 8 gauge should be able to work .

[Milton C Starr]

A update , I got the tracking # today for shipping so I think it should be here sometime next week . Im surprised they didnt charge me shipping considering the shipping weight is 20lbs lol .

[Milton C Starr]

Well I just got the 8 gauge in today and took some quick photos .
I will get some better ones when the thunder storm goes away , this thing is so long it would probably turn into a lightning rod :rotf:. I thought a 16lb gun wouldnt be heavy , I was like well ive owned 11lb 10 gauges whats another 5lbs haha . I was wrong this thing takes some arms to shoulder ! The bores have some what looks like surface rust in them but nothing major . I looked down them with a gun light and didnt see any pitting just light rust . Not dents in the muzzle and such .

It has some what I would call mild engraving nothing too fancy .
Though I was showing it to a guy who collects antique guns and said that most market guns hes seen dont have engraving on them .

[Milton C Starr]

There is some engraving on the trigger guard .
The proof marks have HL stamped in 3 different spots .
Im not sure what that stands for . I was thinking heavy load because of the dual key way lugs

[Rick Losey]

Belgium proof - which you knew -

if i was to guess the HL might be the barrel maker's mark

it doesn't fit what I see as a belgium inspector's mark

[Milton C Starr]

Belgium proof - which you knew -

if i was to guess the HL might be the barrel maker's mark

it doesn't fit what I see as a belgium inspector's mark

Looking close at the underside of the barrels , It doesnt appear to be laminated or damascus . There are some lines but they dont look like the pattern of any damascus or twist I have seen and there is only 1 type of steel as I can see. The marks look like tooling marks instead of what ive seen on any twist or similair construction of barrel .

The stock it self feels like it weighs at least 7lbs if or somewhere around that .
Id say the barrels feel probably around 8lbs or more . I dont have a scale to weigh them , just comparing their weights to a standard 7lb hunting rifle .

The rib seems better attached than the 2 Birmingham 10 gauges I owned .
I paid 1099$ for it much cheaper than any of the other 8 ga muzzleloaders I have seen . Though If i pickup a 8 gauge sxs cartridge gun this winter I doubt I will shoot this muzzleloader anytime soon . It needs a few things done to it and theres not a double gun smith anywhere close to me . There is a small dent about 5" back from the muzzle on the left barrel. Not sure how much of a issue that is . One of the lugs needs repairing . The left hammer is a little loose , the screw is tight and all it just has some side to side play in that left hammer . Overall I am happy with it feels pretty solid and heavily built . Im glad no cas shooter has cut the barrels off of it :rotf: .

[Milton C Starr]

Belgium proof - which you knew -

if i was to guess the HL might be the barrel maker's mark

it doesn't fit what I see as a belgium inspector's mark

Was that your video of the EM Reilly 8 bore ?

[Milton C Starr]

The 8 gauge doesnt seem much bigger than the 10 gauge really .
Even though it weighs 7lbs more haha .

[hugh rather]

The dual keyway lugs are for saftey through redundacy. There were cases of the single lug guns loosing the key and the barrels tipping foward and rotating to allow the capped nipples to hit the ground with the disasterous result of shooting the sportsman. Hence the double lug.

[Milton C Starr]

Probably explains why the front part of the rear one is broke . I plan to send the barrels to someone before I ever attempt to shoot it . I contacted Bachelders on their Facebook page to see if they work on sxs muzzleloader barrels also . I've read some people say have a gunsmith remove the breech plugs to clean out the gunk , I've also read more people say never remove the breech plugs on a gun this old . Speaking of the key ways , the more expensive 8 ga muzzleloader don't seem to have them . Maybe they just have a bigger longer single lug .

[Rick Losey]

Was that your video of the EM Reilly 8 bore ?

no, my antique muzzleloaders are a 14 and a 15 gauge

[Milton C Starr]

no, my antique muzzleloaders are a 14 and a 15 gauge

Got any pictures of them ? I might start collecting sxs muzzeloaders .
I talked to a double gunsmith today who specializes in black powder doubles .
He said he recommends removing the breech plugs on these old guns unless absolutely needed .

I found a nice little 24 ga double muzzleloader that I think would go good with my 8 gauge .

I think the brass fittings on this 8 gauge are not original to the gun .
I can see its inletted for a straight metal grip . Or perhaps they just inletted it out like that because it was quicker .

I think it will make a decent turkey gun . Since it doesnt have chokes I was looking at some 8 bore round balls . They weigh about 2oz which is the same as the amount of shot I planned on loading .

[Rick Losey]

Got any pictures of them ? I might start collecting sxs muzzeloaders .
I talked to a double gunsmith today who specializes in black powder doubles .
He said he recommends removing the breech plugs on these old guns unless absolutely needed .
.

I assume you meant not to remove the breech plugs - i'd agree to the point i would avoid one that would require it

there is one picture of the 14 with its case and several of the 15 on page 7 and 8 of my MISC album

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=588&page=7

[Milton C Starr]

I assume you meant not to remove the breech plugs - i'd agree to the point i would avoid one that would require it

there is one picture of the 14 with its case and several of the 15 on page 7 and 8 of my MISC album

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=588&page=7

Yes i meant not remove , there doesnt appear to be anything more than some surface rust in the bores . Cant say ive ever seen a 15 gauge before that is pretty neat . I couldnt find a 8 ga cleaning jag or bore brush , I figure I can wrap some cloth or similar around a bore brush and use that . Luckily 8 gauge is close to 20mm so it wasnt hard finding a bore brush online .

Id like to get a case but I dont even know where to start on who could do the fitting .

[Rick Losey]

Peter Dyson is a good guy to deal with and has 8 gauge stuff

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/CLEANING_KITS___BRUSHES.html

or you can wrap a frontier pad around a smaller brush or jag

[Milton C Starr]

Peter Dyson is a good guy to deal with and has 8 gauge stuff

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/CLEANING_KITS___BRUSHES.html

or you can wrap a frontier pad around a smaller brush or jag

Thanks thats what I have been trying to find .

[Milton C Starr]

Any idea what thread pattern their bore brushes are ?

[Rick Losey]

it says they are Parker Hale accessories

so - they'd fit those rods
which they also sell https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/RODS.html

email and ask them - as I said - I have always found them pleasant to deal with

[Milton C Starr]

it says they are Parker Hale accessories

so - they'd fit those rods
which they also sell https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/RODS.html

email and ask them - as I said - I have always found them pleasant to deal with

Ill probably order the rod and brushes from them as I currently dont have a cleaning rod long enough for 39" barrels .

[Alan B. Webber]

I just got a Wm. Cashmore 10 ga muzzle loader in the mail today from my brother with all the loading paraphernalia. He wants me to sell it for him. It's nicely engraved and heavier than my #6 frame Parkers. I think the barrels are about 39". It was made around 1852 and seems in great shape.
You could sure have fun stoning honkers with it.

[Milton C Starr]

I just got a Wm. Cashmore 10 ga muzzle loader in the mail today from my brother with all the loading paraphernalia. He wants me to sell it for him. It's nicely engraved and heavier than my #6 frame Parkers. I think the barrels are about 39". It was made around 1852 and seems in great shape.
You could sure have fun stoning honkers with it.

Ive seen a couple 10 ga sxs muzzleloaders on gunbroker with over 35" barrels .
You could look there to get a idea perhaps on value . Im not sure now if I am going to fire this 8 ga ml . If I end up with a 8 gauge cartridge sxs I probably wont ever shoot the ml .

[Alan B. Webber]

Milton,
Thanks. I'll take a look on gun broker. I haven't even gone through the accessories box yet.
If I keep it around here long enough I might even shoot it this duck season.
Alan

[Milton C Starr]

You can search through here https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/antique-shotguns-percussion.c758_p1_o6.cfm

Theres a few long double 10 ga percussion guns .
I wish my 8 ga muzzle loader was legal for duck and geese , would be interesting to see it used like it was in its day . Besides the 16lbs of mass it does shoulder quite well .

I may add some other sxs muzzleloaders to the collection in the future just so the 8 ga isnt lonely haha .

[John Dallas]

Does anyone make an 8 to 10 (or 12) gauge reducer?

[Milton C Starr]

Does anyone make an 8 to 10 (or 12) gauge reducer?

Charlie knows where you can buy them I think he uses 12 ga shells in his 8 ga .
The company I bought my 10 ga to 16 ga adapters went out of business . They made anything between 4 ga to 410 .

I take it you have a 8 ga cartridge gun ?

[Alan B. Webber]

I'm sure Briley makes chamber inserts.
Wilkinson probably does also.

[Milton C Starr]

I'm sure Briley makes chamber inserts.
Wilkinson probably does also.

Could just wait for RSTs 8 ga shells they are working on .
The gauge mates I had would always stick in the chambers on my 10 ga .
.I figure that just because of the wider tolerances the old shotguns have .

[John Dallas]

Guess I should have read the part about "Muzzle Loader" more carefully

[Milton C Starr]

Guess I should have read the part about "Muzzle Loader" more carefully

:rotf:

I would ask Charlie though he uses some 8 ga to 12 ga adapters I believe .
gaugemates used to make 8 ga adapters but I think they went out of business .