General question about Parker value

[Ronald Scott]

How much does the value of an otherwise all original Parker go down if it has been restocked? The one I am considering looks like it has had the butt stock replaced. It's a good job -- has the original butt plate and grip cap, the wood to metal fit is perfect and the finish look right. But the checkering doesn't match the forend -- it's sharp and crisp with fewer lines per inch. The forend is finer but well worn. Even to my untrained eyes it's obvious -- but I still like the gun because it fits me and it's a Parker.

I'm looking for a percentage -- thinking maybe 20% reduction -- but I really have no idea. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Dean Romig]

Consider the possibility that the seller may have already taken the restock into account when he priced the gun and priced it accordingly.





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[Ronald Scott]

Consider the possibility that the seller may have already taken the restock into account when he priced the gun and priced it accordingly.





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Maybe I'm not thinking about this correctly but I'm trying to establish a fair price. The way I normally do that when it comes to firearms (I am not an experienced collector -- just a hobbyist) is: 1) do a search in the major gun websites and compare what other people are asking for the same gun, 2) google search to see if the same make and model come up in any other sites, and 3) check the Blue Book value.

The problem in this case is that I can only find guns that are original. So I have a good idea what the value is for that gun in original condition but I have no way to find out what a restocked version of that gun is is worth. That's why I am asking the question here.

I figured maybe there was a rule of thumb that could be applied for various things like restocking, rebluing, complete restoration etc. Is that not the case?

How do experienced collectors come up with a value? Or is it totally subjective?

Thanks!

[Rick Losey]

[QUOTE=Ronald Scott;275793 1) do a search in the major gun websites and compare what other people are asking for the same gun,
Thanks![/QUOTE]

you may look for those that sold -asking price is often unrealistic, or at best very hopeful

[Ronald Scott]

you may look for those that sold -asking price is often unrealistic, or at best very hopeful

Most sites just say "SOLD" and don't provide the actual selling price. I figure the asking price is almost always more than what the seller will ultimately take. Either way I'm comparing asking prices in both cases -- the gun I am interested in and the gun I am comparing it to. So it's a fair comparison. I think the internet has made price shopping almost too easy, at least from the seller's perspective. But it also evens the playing field and allows the buyer a way to make sure he is not over paying. The exception being the case like this one when you can find no comparable gun. I doubt a serious collector would be interested in a restocked gun unless it was so rare that there is no other way to get that particular gun. That's not the case here. It's not that rare and for me it would be a shooter.

[Dean Romig]

Ron, as you suggested, it is highly subjective.
In my opinion some restocked guns lose value because the replacement stock was not done in a ‘period correct’ style or the checkering is wrong, or the wood to metal fit is substandard, among other things.
Some restocks are so well done it is difficult even for experts to determine it is a replacement. Each case is different. It is too subjective to assign a percentage differential to the value... some are devalued and some are not.





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[Randy G Roberts]

[QUOTE= Or is it totally subjective?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Very, very subjective with opinions on it that vary as much as the numerous scenarios that involve restocks. Restocks are totally dismissed by some buyers while others have a high tolerance level for them. The quality of the work and the stocker will be a major factor. What grade/gauge etc are we speaking of ? A run of the mill 30" VHE 12 bore restock is of little interest, make it a 28 gauge and it's game on especially if done correctly, probably can say the same "game on" for most any A grade and above assuming the work is of high quality. At least that would be true for me but others would have no interest. IMO you will not be able to arrive at a firm number of say 20% as you referenced for a price reduction for a restock. To many variables out there, each one is different. Very subjective just like my opinion eh. Good luck with your gun if you acquire it. BTW what is it if you don't mind sharing that info ?

[Randy G Roberts]

Ron, as you suggested, it is highly subjective.
In my opinion some restocked guns lose value because the replacement stock was not done in a ‘period correct’ style or the checkering is wrong, or the wood to metal fit is substandard, among other things.
Some restocks are so well done it is difficult even for experts to determine it is a replacement. Each case is different. It is too subjective to assign a percentage differential to the value... some are devalued and some are not.





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Dean we were typing at the same time I think :)

[Paul Ehlers]

There's a lot of ways to look at the basic question here.

I'd say most generally if the gun is truly in top collectable condition other than the restock and is being looked at from the collectability standpoint alone, a restock would potentially affect the value negatively. There are examples where this rule doesn't apply though. The one that comes to mind is Nash Buckingham's HE Fox "Bo-Whoop" it was restocked before it was put up for auction and brought a very handsome price due to it's provenance.

Then there's what would be considered shooter grade guns that have had something happen to the wood that makes the gun unshootable but the rest of the gun is in good shape. Restocking these guns saves the gun & puts it back in action. In these cases, I'd say the restock adds value due to making the gun useable again, but the restock may not add enough value to re-coup the cost of the restock job.

I guess it really comes down to the old rule of looking at each gun individually. I don't think you can apply a one size fits all rule of putting a percentage number for what a restock would add or subtract for the value of a gun.

[Paul Ehlers]

Here's an example of a GH that Brain Dudley restocked-restored for me. The original wood had been butchered by a hack with a piece of sandpaper in his hand.

Did the restock add or subtract from the value of this one.

[Mills Morrison]

Sure looks better.

[Dean Romig]

I would have restocked it too. The original stock was destroyed.





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[Robin Lewis]

I think it is worth the value YOU put on it. Trying to determine what the next person thinks it's worth is a tough call for any person not in the gun trade. What it's worth today may not be what it's worth next year or the year after.... value goes up and down.

If it's a shooter or hunting gun, it's worth what you are willing to pay to use it and enjoy your time with it. The next hunter/shooter will probably agree with your decision too but a "collector" may not. If you want to flip it and make a quick buck and are asking this question here, you will never get a comfortable answer and I suggest you pass on it or risk getting stung.

[Mills Morrison]

When you go to sell, the next person always seems to have a funny habit of putting a lower value on it than you did

[Brian Dudley]

Thanks for posting photos of that GH Paul. That one turned out really good.

In regards to the OP’s question.
First off you need to confirm if it IS in fact a restock. Based on your description, it could at least just be a refinish and a re-checker.
The next consideration is the quality of the work if it is a restock, or even a refinish.

First things first. Most common guns are not actually “worth” restocking or restoring. Financially, it does not make sense since the gun will not be worth the cost of the work on the open market. It simply is the owners choice to put that money into the gun for one reason or another. And that is FINE. But they cannot expect to recoup the money in a sale later on. Of course there are exceptions, but I am speaking about common grades and gauges.

Yes, a good original gun will command more than a very beat up or improperly refinished original gun. But I would say that a quality restocked gun with all the work done properly would certainly command more than said beat up original gun. And a poorly restocked gun would command the least. Rightfully so. My opinion.

[Jack Cronkhite]

My approach is if I like it I buy it. Even beat up guns have found their way home. I used to think they would be useful for parts but I learned how to completely disassemble and repair or replace a part here and there. My only concern is whether or not the gun is safe to shoot. Reselling has not been a factor. I sold exactly two Parker’s one a break even proposition and one tripled but hey I bought it for 90$ and a young guy just wanted the unshootable relic to hang on a wall. My problem is they keep coming home and never leave. Executor can handle that when it’s time. I do have some poor restocks and some poor original stocks but they all shoot and a dead bird didn’t care or even know how poor the wood was. Everyone is different and this approach has been a perfect fit for me in my pursuit of happiness and long tailed roosters. Cheers Jack

[Ronald Scott]

Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. Most seem to feel it's very subjective and each gun should be considered as an individual. I'm still left wondering "what is this gun worth"?

What do you guys think about the way the Blue Book of Gun Values uses the PPGS (Photo Percentage Grading System)? The author and publisher says, " Condition factors pictured (indicated by PPGS-o-meters), unless otherwise noted, refer to the percentage of a gun's remaining finish(es), include blue, case colors, nickle, or another type of original finish remaining on the frame/receiver. On older guns, describing the receiver/frame finish is absolutely critical to ascertain an accurate grade, which will determine the correct value. Additional percentages of condition may be used to describe other specific parts of the gun (i.e. barrel, wood finish, plating, magazine tube, etc.) ... Being able to spot original condition has never been more important, especially when prices get into four, five, and six figures. Remember, the price is wrong if the condition isn't right!"

Then when describing a refinished Parker DHE hammerless SxS he says after an explanation on p 97: "If this gun was all original, and in 95% condition overall, its value would be $11,500-$13,500 range (and easy to sell!). This non-original DHE in this type of refinished condition would probably be valued in the $3,250-$4,000 range, or less than half of an original.

So he is deducting 50% for the refinish. Sound right to you guys?

[John Dallas]

Hmmm. I bought a DHE (90%?) off this site about 18 months ago for under $5K, and was pleased with my purchase. I would also suggest that prices have softened since then

[Ken Hill]

Thank you all for your thoughtful answers. Most seem to feel it's very subjective and each gun should be considered as an individual. I'm still left wondering "what is this gun worth"?

What do you guys think about the way the Blue Book of Gun Values uses the PPGS (Photo Percentage Grading System)? The author and publisher says, " Condition factors pictured (indicated by PPGS-o-meters)....

Then when describing a refinished Parker DHE hammerless SxS he says after an explanation on p 97: "If this gun was all original, and in 95% condition overall, its value would be $11,500-$13,500 range (and easy to sell!). This non-original DHE in this type of refinished condition would probably be valued in the $3,250-$4,000 range, or less than half of an original.

So he is deducting 50% for the refinish. Sound right to you guys?

Ron,

There is a person that did extensive research on English gun sales. He developed a system to take into account the Original Quality, Current Condition, and Brand Value. Ignoring Brand Value, his findings were Current Condition impacts price quite a bit. A refinished gun takes a big hit. Approximately 45-55%. A refinished gun reduces the pool of potential buyers.

Ken

[Paul Ehlers]

When looking at Parkers in the blue book. I pretty much ignore the prices they have listed simply because they are not up date with the current market. The book can be of use to a degree for determining values for insurance purposes.

The restoration/refinished thing is a touchy subject. Generally speaking a fairly high condition all original finishes gun will bring more than a refinished gun. With that said; There's one heck of a lot of re-done guns that are well worth the money & IMO should bring more money than a similar gun with the finishes worn off or have alterations & defects to the wood. If you want proof of this, try getting a Parker refinished or restored by one of the top name go to Parker gunsmiths right now, they all have a back log of guy's wanting their guns restored/re-finished.

We Americans are really hung up on originality & are constantly chasing the unicorn high condition untouched, unused, pristine gun. There's many levels of collectors/gun lovers. There's the true collector which collects the best of the best & is constantly looking to find that next gem. Then there's the collector/shooter/hunter who has several guns in many forms of condition, some original, some refinished, but overall nice & in useable condition. Then there's the guys that simply want a Parker in good mechanical condition that intends on using it rather than worrying about the finishes on it.

My suggestion is first decide which category you fall in the closest and then watch the internet including gun broker to get a baseline on what the current market is for the type of gun your looking at. Then when you find the right gun you'll know if your comfortable with the asking price. Keep in mind that most of the advertised guns "especially with some dealers" are priced on the high side trying to find that one buyer who just has to have that gun.

IMO; Unless a gun is in extremely high condition or has a unique provenance you shouldn't be looking at it as an investment in the current market with the aging baby boomers. Buy the gun because you like it & it makes you happy keeping in mind that you may not get back what you paid for it down the road. Buy it, enjoy it & use it, life is short, live it up!!!

[Ronald Scott]

IMO; Unless a gun is in extremely high condition or has a unique provenance you shouldn't be looking at it as an investment in the current market with the aging baby boomers.

I've heard that argument before and I think it's basically true in the short term (1-5 years) but I wonder if in the long term (10+ years), as the younger shooters get older, if they might have an interest in classic hand fitted wood and metal guns. There is also normal economic inflation to consider. The Fed has pumped enormous amounts of money into the system through monetary easing over the past 10 years. Stocks have been in one of the longest bull markets in history, yet inflation otherwise has remained low. That can change overnight and hard assets like collectible guns can be an excellent store of value when the stock market turns bearish.

I actually think good collectible guns can be an excellent way to diversify a portfolio -- it's what we call in the investment world a "non-correlating asset." So I'm not ready to throw up my hands and say, "I don't care if my guns go up in value, I just want to enjoy them for what they are." I want both -- I want an appreciating asset, or at least one that doesn't depreciate, and I want to enjoy my investment.

Think about it, you get close to zero percent interest in the bank, the only enjoyment you get is looking at the account statement, and the little you make is taxed! Buy a gun, enjoy using it, and hopefully when and if you sell it you make a little money. And, by the way, you get a very favorable tax treatment on the profit.

[Garry L Gordon]

...Buy the gun because you like it & it makes you happy keeping in mind that you may not get back what you paid for it down the road. Buy it, enjoy it & use it, life is short, live it up!!!

Amen. And know that no one can put a value on the years you use it other than you. What's your life's time worth?

[Eric Eis]

Amen. And know that no one can put a value on the years you use it other than you. What's your life's time worth?

Why is it that when we buy a new car, we don't worry about how much it will deprecate in two years but when we buy a gun and enjoy it for how many years we have to break even or sell at a profit:rolleyes: Enjoy the gun and have fun.

[Ronald Scott]

Why is it that when we buy a new car, we don't worry about how much it will deprecate in two years but when we buy a gun and enjoy it for how many years we have to break even or sell at a profit:rolleyes: Enjoy the gun and have fun.

Send me a PM for a list of overpriced guns i have for sale, I’m sure you’d enjoy owning a couple of them. :rolleyes: :bigbye:

[Mills Morrison]

You don't lose money until you sell. And Garry and Eric are correct

[Dean Romig]

I buy new cars as a rule and drive and maintain them until they start costing too much to own them anymore. But to me, a nice gun is a commodity sort of like a house, that I expect to at least hold its value if not appreciate over time. Unfortunately the market on used sxs guns doesn't work like that. When there is a glut on the market, either in houses or used sxs guns it turns into a buyer's market.





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[Phil Yearout]

I suppose it's different when you're talking about "collectible" guns, but I don't own any. Except for a couple of guns I bought for the express purpose of selling I've never once worried about what it would be worth down the road, nor even what it's worth now - only what it's worth to me. If I bought at or under what it's worth to me I'm happy; somebody else can worry about what it's worth later on :).

[charlie cleveland]

i buy a gun because i want it i sell or trade one because it no longer appeals to me.....its hard to sell a gun for what its worth on short notice...thats why sometimes a guy really got a bargain in a gun because the seller needed the money quickly...thats why there is so many pawn shops and title buyers out there....if you need quick cash for a gun or car your on the short end of the stick.....charlie

[Dean Romig]

I completely agree Charlie!





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[Ronald Scott]

I never buy new cars -- they depreciate a few thousand $$ as soon as you drive off the lot. I buy one year old low mileage cars and avoid that loss. But guns are different than cars because it's actually possible not to lose money.

I own three types of guns: Collectibles i.e., "safe queens" -- on average they are up in value over the past 10 years. Shooters are for shooting. They are either semi-collectible i.e., high value but not pristine NIB stuff that a little more wear won't depreciate the value or they are guns I don't care if they lose value--guns I bought to shoot and don't care about resale value.

The Parker I am looking for will be a "collectible shooter." I think (and I may be totally delusional) that it's possible to buy a nice 50-60% original Parker, hunt with it and shoot clays with it for the next 10 years and it will be worth more than I paid for it. But if I buy a brand new Browning Citori and shoot it for 10 years I think I'd be lucky to get my money back. Mass produced guns are mass produced guns -- they have zero collector value. Regardless of the whole "end of the baby boomer" argument they aren't making any more Parkers.

Show me a guy who doesn't care if he gets his money back on a Parker and I'll show you a guy I want to buy my next Parker from!

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

The market for Parker shotguns is not what it once was say 2003, The value of your Parker shotgun whether a shooter or high grade collectable, is directly attributed to the PGCA. and publications such as the Parker Story, serialization book and others, that have educated us about our guns, will prices return to what they were a few years ago? I personally doubt it with 200 are more available through the internet, Time will tell, Gary

[Phil Yearout]

Show me a guy who doesn't care if he gets his money back on a Parker and I'll show you a guy I want to buy my next Parker from!

I don't, but then I don't have any for sale; sorry :). My wife and kids may care at some point; then again, they don't know what I paid, so...:whistle:

[Bill Murphy]

Those of us who got a good head start on today's depressed market for Parkers will still sell for a bunch more than they paid. However, guns we buy today will not appreciate and will bring down our average. Remember, profit is determined on the buy, not on the sell. Try to buy intelligently, and make sure the seller understands the market he is participating in.

[Garry L Gordon]

When we bought our house in 1981, the interest rate was 18%. Conventional wisdom at the time predicted rates would never be in the single digits again.

Live long enough and you never know what you might see.

Collecting as a way to make money is an “iffy” proposition at best. Collecting as a means of joy and fulfillment is easier to achieve.

[Joe Graziano]

Beautiful restock. I would guess it certainly added value to the gun. I'm much more of a shooter than a collector. Would I prefer a nicely restocked Parker with modern dimensions to say, an original gun with a well worn stock that has 3 in of drop? Absolutely. A serious collector feel differently. It all depends on the condition of the original and what you plan to do with the gun.

[Ronald Scott]

I'm a collector and a shooter. I own Colts SAAs, 1911's, and Pythons -- they don't take up a lot of space -- so they get to be my safe queens. I don't own a Parker but I want one. My first shotgun at age 16 was a Parker, a borrowed one that was returned after several hunting seasons. Some great memories were made with that gun .... maybe I don't "want" one -- maybe I "need" one. I need one I can hunt with and also enjoy looking at. It needs to be good looking but not pristine. I'm thinking damascus because I don't own one and they are beautiful but so are the steel ones, especially if they area little worn but not banged up. The gun needs to fit me -- standard modern dimensions -- not easy to find but they are out there. I'm thinking 20 or 16 gauge. I'm mostly an upland hunter--pheasants, grouse, woodcock and quail. And I also enjoy vintage/classic gun sporting clays. I pretty well know what I want. Now it's just a matter of finding it.

The good news is that I have learned to enjoy the hunt and know that when I finally pull out my wallet the hunt is over. I'm told the market is soft -- that's good if you're a buyer. I don't need a high return but I don't want to take an uneducated loss. This group is very helpful and I appreciate everyone sharing their hard earned knowledge. Thanks!