Gun Fitting

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I don't recall seeing threads on this in the past, but interested in your thoughts on gun fitting, and if it really helped you. Some people are shooters that hunt a little, and others are hunters that shoot a little. I fall into the latter category.
I am a mediocre shot on the sporting clays range, but do quite well bird hunting, and probably should give most of the credit to my dogs for that. Like most of you, I could carry a different gun every day of the week. My guns range from 13 1/2" LOP to 14 1/2" and 2 1/4" to 3" of drop. I tend to favor 16's and 20's, and have recently begun to appreciate those 30" and plus barrels, although 26" was the desirable length back when I started hunting with SXS's back in the '80's.
If you had a gun fitting, did you then have one of your guns custom stocked for you. Did it improve your Shooting?

[John Dallas]

A friend of mine had a fitting in Michigan, and the fitter convinced him that if his guns weren't all stocked to that specific set of dimensions he would never hit another bird. He drank the koolaid aid, and never found a gun that fit him. IMHO, unless you have a very unique set of fitting problems, and or are trying to shoot for the world championship, a fitting and resulting huge expenditures for custom stocks is wasted

[Rich Anderson]

I had the Hollywood gun fitted to me when it was restocked. I like a long LOP at 15 inches. It's my go to sporting clays gun. Gunner's gun was also made to my dimensions a go to upland gun for sure.

At the end of the day I think I can adapt pretty well to most anything if the drop isn't severe or LOP to short. On a lot of my guns I'll use a slip on pad for the added length.

[todd allen]

Hunting vs competition is like street racing vs NHRA Drag racing. On the street, you "run what you brung". Same in hunting. A 40-50% average on game is fine. In registered target shooting, it won't get you outta D Class.
Anyone who shoots a dedicated target gun in comp, will have it fitted. Hunting scores are improved by good gun fit, as well, but hunting, especially with classic side by sides ain't about score. Some of my most fun had in the field, were with poorly fitting old relics out of the 1800s.
That said, for the past 20 years or so, I have looked for modern shootable dimensions on my classics.

[Brett Hoop]

Harold

Well you know I am in the same boat, and I think it a good question. I shot a few rounds while at the Southern with Danny Patton. In short he noticed with my 20/28ga( I shot the 28ga barrels) grouse gun that I was lifting my head for the second clay. He said you know you have hit all the first targets and about half the second ones because I see you lift your head trying to find it. He said maybe that stock is too low at your face.
After that round we shot 16ga, and I used my pheasant gun and shot a much improved score, on the 10,12,16 course. Danny said I wasn't lifting my head with that gun. I took both and had them measured to find 3/16" difference at the face lower for the 28ga, all other points of measurement within 1/8". I am planning to have the stock bent.

I don't know if it will help, but I have it in my mind it will and worth a shot. It's rare we keep score at Sporting Clays as you also know, but with Grouse I keep score. I'd rather center a bird or miss completely than nick'em.

[Rich Anderson]

Brett stock bending has it's own set of issues esp if it's a pistol grip. You have tangs and sears to deal with and the bend doesn't always hold. Try a comb pad before you try bending. I have a lace up one and a Velcro one from RST. Beretta markets a nice gel pad that sticks to the stock but doesn't leave any residue.

[todd allen]

I have an old P grade hammer gun that I put a lace on comb pad on. I would love it to have better dimensions, but am up in the air about having the stock bent.
We're talking a half inch at the heel.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

The trouble with slip on pads, is that as you increase the LOP with the pad, you also increase the DAH. Hate to put a butt pad and cheek pad both on a gun.

[Brett Hoop]

C.O.B.

I have a plan for some moleskin to try at Ernie's. Del is who I had measure both guns for comparison and likely who will do the attempt, if I move forward.

[Daryl Corona]

Harold, I think if you were to get into shooting registered targets and were shooting for master class then a gun fitting might benefit you. Other than that you would be better off focusing on the fundamentals. I really believe that it is the Indian not the arrow. I enjoy shooting all my guns in their various dimensions; some I shoot better than others but it all boils down to technique. I shot a K32 for years chasing the scorecard around the course and it was fit to me by a master gunsmith at the Ottsville location. If I ever got serious again I'd dig it out the safe. Until then I'm loving shooting these old classics.

Master fitter and BBQ chef Beavertail Spencer and I will be available in the back 40 during the first weekend of June this year for custom fittings, bourbon tastings and general mayhem to assist in your quest for those extra targets on the course. Please register on our website as space is limited and a small deposit will hold your spot. Bring what 'ya got and we'll figure it out. :):)

[Kevin McCormack]

I had a formal gun fitting at the first Southern SxS (20 yrs. ago ??) and had one gun stocked to those dimensions a year or two later. When it came time to have my Fox X/DE Special restocked 2 years ago, I decided to have another fitting to see what had changed. Despite aging eyes, reflexes, reaction time and handling quirks, the only thing the second fitting showed was that I should probably have 1/8 - 3/16 more cast off, being a righty. Knowing what I know now, I would not bother having another one, but it was interesting to compare changes over time.

[edgarspencer]

Master fitter and BBQ chef Beavertail Spencer and I will be available in the back 40 during the first weekend of June :):)
:glug::biglaugh:

[Brian Dudley]

Gun fitting is a slippery slope. I say that because I think many people end up with dimensions coming back way differently than that may expect. Freakishly long LOPs seem to be a trend. I have stocked guns for a few different people to fitted dims with lengths touching or even exceeding 16”! And they were shorter than me.

For some, fitting means that NO gun out there will “fit” them, and then a wheelbarrow full of money has to be spent to restock guns that will fit nobody else. So they own them.

And others are very adaptive and are not as stuck to one set of dims. And that is right about target vs hunting. There is a big difference.

[Mark Ray]

I have a custom DeHaan .410 and a custom Sterlingworth that are fitted to my dimensions for mounted, or “ready” position shooting with 14 7/8ths lop. I definitely shoot these guns better without much at clay target games, and pass shooting hunting (read doves) in warm weather where I dont need a coat or jacket, than I do others. But, like many here, i seem to do pretty well with most other gun dimensions while hunting.

[edgarspencer]

If you looked at all my double guns, in the rack, the varying height from the shelf to the triggers looks like a wave. Like many, I have a couple I rarely shoot but the ones I do shoot are very different. The more I shoot them, the better I shoot them. Likewise, I perform less well with the ones less used.
My dad was a bigger guy than I, and his favorite grouse gun is under 14”. I’m built more like our milkman and seem to like guns between 14.25 and 14.5”

[Kevin McCormack]

FWIW, my "ideal" stock dimensions off both try gun fittings were 14 3/8 LOP, 1 5/8 DAC, and 2 1/2 DAH w/ the aforementioned later fitting recommending a little more cast - but no change in heights.

A very interesting contrast is the gun I shot for 10 years hard at Olympic Bunker (International Trap), a straight, unmolested out-of-the-box Browning Pigeon Grade Superposed Trap with the narrow (9mm?) rib, which measured 1 1/2 DAC x 1 1/2 DAH and 14 1/4 over Browning Factory Pad, no cast. The gun was a stone killer out to a full 50 meters , choked IM & F. with good factory ammo and high antimony 7 1/2 shot. After 10 years I plateaued at scores between 17 and 21 out of 25. (If you ever get the idea you know how to handle a shotgun, treat yourself to a round or 2 of regulation International Trap at a well- run bunker! ).

[Chad Hefflinger]

Are you a target shooter, or a shooter? I take multiple guns hunting and do very well with all of them, I am not however a very good target shooter. My best friend and hunting partner does both, he used to be the best field shot I ever saw, today he is pretty good at both now that he shoots a lot of targets.
That said he wants a very long LOP and very specific dimensions. Has this helped him with targets, yes but it has also made him loose a little as a snap shot bird hunter. In my opinion custom fit guns are for target shooters. Find one that shoots where you look, and enjoy the hell out of it.

[James L. Martin]

As many have said, big difference between target gun and say grouse gun. Target gun longer lop and less drop. Bird gun shorter lop and more drop for those snap shots. At least for me.

[Rich Anderson]

Pre mounted guns in skeet and trap are the rule of thumb in those games. I shoot low gun and one reason I like sporting clays is it's more like hunting than the other two. I use the same guns to shoot sporting with as I do in the field.

[Garry L Gordon]

For what it's worth (not much, I dare say), I had a fitting some years back and had three guns made with those dimensions. I shot (and still do when I use them) those guns much better and had confidence in them. When I really started acquiring old guns I tried to get the high dimensions that the fitting session prescribed -- that's not an easy goal as I know my collecting colleagues fully understand. I don't shoot clays at all. There's no place around me to do so, and I'm not into the competition (and I compete against myself as my worst competitor). When I was shooting poorly while hunting, I would always go back to the fitted guns and "cured" myself.

If I was going to shoot clays, I'd get one gun that fit and use it...and correct my flaws when they came up. For hunting, I use different guns and have some that I consistently shoot well. I use different guns with different dimensions for different types of hunting. I can get by with lower drops on dove and waterfowl hunting where I have more time to "correct" for the ill fitting dimensions. For rising birds over my dogs, I need a gun to shoot high.

I think we can adjust to the length of pull better than we can the drops, especially for quick shooting. I have a 16 gauge 0 frame Parker that has a 13 1/2' LOP, but has very high dimensions (my fitted LOP prescription is 15"). I can hit most anything I really "see" with that gun in those cases where the shooting is quick.

In the end, we give up something in our shooting if we collect and shoot lots of guns. I don't keep score, but I know if I have confidence in a gun, I hit with it...until I loose that confidence.

Shoot clays to compete -- get a gun that fits. For hunting, decide what's important to you and act accordingly.

That's my two cents (adjusted for inflation it equals zilch).

[Phillip Carr]

A number of years ago I went to Michael Murphys in Kansas and had a fitting done. My experience for what ever it’s worth it was money well spent.
I took along a RBL 20 gauge that I did not shoot very well. The fitter spent a little over an hour at the grease plate having me mount the shotgun quickly and fire at a small center hole in the plate. After several shots it was very clear that I was shooting a pattern about 6” low and 6” to the right at 17 or 18 yards.
Using small cardboard shims and tape he made adjustments until we got the pattern where we needed it. The fitter then transferred numbers to a form showing proper LOP, pitch, cast, Drop, etc.
I left the RBL with them and in about 6 weeks received it back.
I am not a clay bird shooter but I had gone to the range and shot skeet prior to the fitting with disappointing results averaging 15 to 16 out of 25. Upon getting my RBL back I once again went and shot some skeet and shot 21 to 22 out of 25. A huge improvement.
I have since had a number of shotguns sent out to be adjusted. LOP and pitch changed by cutting or adding pads. Stocks bent for drop and cast. I’m all cases I have been very happy with the results and they all just feel right when I mount them.
I still rarely shoot clay targets but I generally shoot very well on wild birds. Quail, dove, and pigeons with the guns that have been fitted, and less so with the shotguns I have kept original and unaltered.
I want to be able to track the bird with my eyes and instinctively pull the gun up from my carrying position, fire having it shoot where I am looking.
In a nut shell I think having my shotguns fitted has made me a better shot.

[Harry Collins]

In the mid 1970's I worked in London. The West London Shooting Grounds was on the way home just off the A-40 near Northolt. I did a fitting there and the procedure was just like what Phil Carr had done with only two exception. I was shooting a try-gun and the target was a round steel plate set about 10 ' off the ground. It was white washed after each shot. Then we went out for a lesson. It was my first experience with what I would call the for runner to modern Sporting Clays. You didn't know what was coming and out of nowhere there would be a rabbit or driven birds one behind the other from very high towers or a low going away clay. I never saw the traps. The short and long of it was I did not represent the United States very well that day. The try-gun fitted to me was very comfortable to shoot though.

[Garry L Gordon]

A number of years ago I went to Michael Murphys in Kansas and had a fitting done. My experience for what ever it’s worth it was money well spent.
I took along a RBL 20 gauge that I did not shoot very well. The fitter spent a little over an hour at the grease plate having me mount the shotgun quickly and fire at a small center hole in the plate. After several shots it was very clear that I was shooting a pattern about 6” low and 6” to the right at 17 or 18 yards.
Using small cardboard shims and tape he made adjustments until we got the pattern where we needed it. The fitter then transferred numbers to a form showing proper LOP, pitch, cast, Drop, etc.
I left the RBL with them and in about 6 weeks received it back.
I am not a clay bird shooter but I had gone to the range and shot skeet prior to the fitting with disappointing results averaging 15 to 16 out of 25. Upon getting my RBL back I once again went and shot some skeet and shot 21 to 22 out of 25. A huge improvement.
I have since had a number of shotguns sent out to be adjusted. LOP and pitch changed by cutting or adding pads. Stocks bent for drop and cast. I’m all cases I have been very happy with the results and they all just feel right when I mount them.
I still rarely shoot clay targets but I generally shoot very well on wild birds. Quail, dove, and pigeons with the guns that have been fitted, and less so with the shotguns I have kept original and unaltered.
I want to be able to track the bird with my eyes and instinctively pull the gun up from my carrying position, fire having it shoot where I am looking.
In a nut shell I think having my shotguns fitted has made me a better shot.

Phillip,

Coincidentally, I had my fitting with Michael M. It was eye opening, and certainly worth it.

[Daniel Carter]

Harold some where in your guns is that go to gun that when the bird flushes it comes up and finds the bird and the lead and goes off at the right instant. Seem as though you were not even involved. That is the one,the one that makes you say '' how did that happen''. I hope all of us have that gun, I have 2, A grade Fox 16 and my repro 20. For a hunter those are the one's that are fit to us. The Repro is the one in my avatar after such a day. My sons rarely shoot clay and they hold their own with me in the woods.

[Tom Flanigan]

I had a fitting with Keith Lupton at the Pawling Mountain Club years ago, just to see what the ideal stock measurements were for me. I pasted it in my hunting log book that I use to record my experiences and daily take in Saskatchewan during my annual trips. I haven't done anything else with it and never intended to modify existing stocks or build a new stock to my measurements.

Years ago, I did have one stock bent by a gunsmith in Easton, Md. It cracked. I won't try this again. It was a very early DH that had a setter engraved on the floor plate. The gun was rare in that it was a 70% gun and had never been touched in all the years of its existance. I fixed the crack and lightly checkered over the break area and brushed some patina into the checkering. It's hard to see the fix but I'll never have a stock bent again. In my opinion, its not worth the risk.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, not worth the risk.

[allen newell]

Some years back, i went up to Covey and Nye in vermont and had Lars fit me. I subsequently had Brad Bachelder restock a 12 ga vhe with 28 inch barrels to my dimensions. The fitting cost $325 and the restock cost $3,500. Can't say my shooting measurably improved. Live and learn.

[Dean Romig]

I haven’t had a Parker in my hands that I couldn’t fit myself to it.





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