VH 28 stuck shut.

[Mark Ray]

On the last shot, of the last station last week at the Southern shooting my VH 28, the gun refused to open after the shot. I tried bumping the stock on the ground a little, thinking that the firing pin must be protruding into the shell creating the lock. That didn't work. When I took a look at the gun at home yesterday, I took a cleaning rod and tapped from the inside of the spent shell, thinking THAT might dislodge the firing pin. No such luck, still locked up.

Any suggestions before I pack the gun up and send it to Kirk Merrington?

[Dean Romig]

Presuming the lever will move all the way to the right, while holding the lever in the full open position thump hard with your fist or a rubber mallet on the top of the rearmost few inches of the barrels. Might work... I’ve Heard others have had success with this method.





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[Chuck Bishop]

Do you remember if the gun was hard to close prior to the last shot? Do the barrels break open at all? If they do, while trying to open the barrels, try the rod again. If the barrels don't break at all, something internally is wrong.

[Mark Ray]

Do you remember if the gun was hard to close prior to the last shot? Do the barrels break open at all? If they do, while trying to open the barrels, try the rod again. If the barrels don't break at all, something internally is wrong.

The gun was not hard to close...no issues at all until the very last shot, (left barrel) second shot at the pair. Tried the "thump" on the barrels a few times there at the station. Will try the rod one more time tonight, and if no luck will send the gun off..

Thanks

[John Campbell]

Try removing the forearm. THEN try to break the gun open.

[Mark Ray]

Try removing the forearm. THEN try to break the gun open.

did that also

[Richard Flanders]

Could be the old problem of having an oversized/out of round shell rim stick in the rim recess. New ammo tends to have poor made brass bases these days. AA's are the worst. I have three guns - two Parkers and a JD Dougal that will stick shut if I shoot AA's in them. My Repro 28 is the worst. I've had to put it into a rubber jawed vise where I'm forcing the barrels closed even more then gently apply pressure until the lever moves all the way right, then hold the lever while I release the vise - 4 hands helps here - and pick the gun out and open it. Pretty scary. My DH12 sticks but not that badly, but any more I just shoot STS or vintage paper ammo in it and never have an issue.

[Mark Ray]

I was shooting the 28 Ga. • 2 1/2" • Lite • Vel. 1175 • 5/8 oz. Load from RST. Never had this issue before. I will try the aforementioned/

[Mark Ray]

On another note regarding this gun....I was terrified that airport security might ask that I prove this gun was unloaded....thank goodness they did not have a desire to dig that deep into my gun chest!!

[John Campbell]

Before you send the gun off to Kirk, try phoning him for advice.

Or... phone DelGrego.

Chances are, they can help.

[Mark Ray]

Before you send the gun off to Kirk, try phoning him for advice.

Or... phone DelGrego.

Chances are, they can help.

I just did that! Kirk said to "bundle the gun up and get it to me, and stop monkeying around with it"

Live and Learn.

[Bill Murphy]

Wait a minute. We're men. Keep messing with it. What are you thinking??

[Randy G Roberts]

Please follow up with the prognosis Mark. I'm curious.

[Mark Ray]

Wait a minute. We're men. Keep messing with it. What are you thinking??

Kirk well know how “ham handed” i can be..

[Mark Ray]

Please follow up with the prognosis Mark. I'm curious.

Will do...

[Harry Collins]

I had an early 28 VH on an 0 frame. The rim recess was shallow by todays standards. There were few modern 28 gauge shells that would allow the gun too close. I purchased a reamer and fixed the problem. It was common to the early 28 gauge Parkers. So common that I ended up lending the reamer to a number of PGCA members.

[Dean Romig]

Harry, do you know if that was ever a problem on the 00-frame 28’s?





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[Bob Jurewicz]

I have had the same experiences as Harry C with insufficient rim recess. My fix for getting the gun to open was to place the receiver and barrels in a well padded vice ( bottom of receiver and top of barrels at the breach) and carefully and slowly tighten. I often would hear a click, the top lever would move free and when removed the gun would open. I now have a complete set of reamers.
Bob Jurewicz

[Harry Collins]

Dean,

I do not know if the problem was fixed before moving to the 00 frame for the 28 gauge. My thought is that it was.

Harry

[Chuck Bishop]

I had the same problem with a mint 12 ga. Parker. Some brands of new shells would work fine, some not. Some manufacturers shells had a radius between the rim and the side wall of the brass. Those would not work. I had a hard time closing the gun and opening it. Those shells that had almost a 90 degree angle between the rim and the wall would work fine. The rim recess was depend and the problem was solved.

[Eric Eis]

Dean,

I do not know if the problem was fixed before moving to the 00 frame for the 28 gauge. My thought is that it was.

Harry

Dean, If I remember correctly, it was on the early O frame 28 gauge guns.

[Bill Murphy]

Mark, I used Harry's reamer on one of my guns and another member's gun. It is a simple process, hand operated, hard to make an error. Just keep the reamer a little wet with oil to prevent rust, and all will be well. What is the serial number of the offending gun?

[Mark Ray]

If i ever get the damn gun open! Seriously, Kirk fitted these barrels to the gun recently, and i have sot a couple hundred rounds of RST ammo through the gun without incident. I think something gave up inside.

[Mark Ray]

BTW this is a 00 frame gun. Extractor

[Bill Murphy]

Probably not a rim recess problem.

[Brian Dudley]

I had an early 28 VH on an 0 frame. The rim recess was shallow by todays standards. There were few modern 28 gauge shells that would allow the gun too close. I purchased a reamer and fixed the problem. It was common to the early 28 gauge Parkers. So common that I ended up lending the reamer to a number of PGCA members.


This is not an issue that is unique to 28g. It can happen with any gauge. And even within different manufacturers of ammunition.

[Richard Flanders]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I've had 3 Parkers with rim recess issues and would be surprised if this wasn't the issue here. The problem was/is with the ammo, not the gun. I bought a very nice Clymer rim recess reamer for 12 ga but have not wanted to use it on my D grade because when you drop it in and let the pilot do it's thing, you find that the breech end of the barrels is not orthogonal to the center line of the barrels, or at least not orthogonal to what the reamer pilot thinks is the center line. If I ream it enough to get the entire recess reamed part of it would be too deep. I reamed my Dougal with it and ended up with the the shells a tad below the breech. It still works but is a tad unsightly. Have been afraid to touch my D grade with it. Anyone else have any experience with this issue? I monkeyed with this reamer a lot and just can not get it to engage the recess evenly around the circumference. It's not loose and wobbling; it just doesn't line up. I'd be happy to send it to someone who wanted to monkey with it. Anyone who wants to see how out of round modern shotshell rims are need to stand a half a dozen up on a table and take a dial caliper and put it on the rim then rotate the shell. The dial will indicate out of round rims much of the time. You force them into a nicely cut and round recess and they will stick, and hard sometimes. I've never had an STS or any vintage paper shell rim stick in any gun.

Thanks to Dave for his post below. If we analyze the issue at every level it seems that there can be two issues generated by the modern shell rims. My issue seemed, I think, to be the locking lug getting jammed. I could not move the lever far enough to the right to disengage it; it was jammed solid. Putting it in the vise and applying gentle pressure relieved that jam and the lever moved over and the gun opened. What I can't remember is if the shells came out easily once it was opened. My Repro is an ejector gun, of course, but I can't remember if I still had to knock the shells out with a cleaning rod. It seems I didn't, but I just can't remember. The cause of my issue then could have been just the thick rims Dave refers to below. If I did have to knock them out, that would indicate that the second issue was the out of round rims sticking in the recesses. If the rims weren't stuck the ejectors would toss them when the gun was opened. Just being out of round, but not being over thick would not necessarily jam the locking lug, but it certainly could; it would jam the rims into the recesses and maybe also jam the locking lug some. So, the whole issue might come about when you close the gun, not when you shoot it. Jamming out of round rims into the recesses could lock the gun up without shooting it. Shooting it might make it worse if the rims are also too thick or expand backwards into the breech faces, putting stress on the lug. Are we lost yet?? A multi-pronged issue, not too complicated, but not not as simple as it might seem either.

[Dave Noreen]

I've got the same problem with my 28-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun. I shot it in competition with the early compression formed AAs from 1973 to early 1977 and it worked fine. Modern AAs and STSs are very hard to close on and then even harder to eject. I took an old box of paper Winchester Super-Speed 28-gauge loads from my ammo collection and shot a round of skeet with them with no issues. The rims on those shells were visibly thinner than the modern shells.

[Mark Ray]

Mark, I used Harry's reamer on one of my guns and another member's gun. It is a simple process, hand operated, hard to make an error. Just keep the reamer a little wet with oil to prevent rust, and all will be well. What is the serial number of the offending gun?

Traveling now sodont have sccess to ser#’s, but !!, it is an early @1911 action and later 30’s barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, I have never had any trouble with my Model 12 28 gauge and its ammo, except that is the roughest working Model 12 I have ever pumped. It is an original George Ulrich engraved Pigeon Grade skeet gun, but no better pumper than a new field grade. I am confident that, with another several thousand shells, I can loosen it up.

[Mike Franzen]

Mark, I think you are going to find you have a broken spring inside one of the locks.

[Mark Ray]

Thats what Kirk thinks. Im standing fast until he says grace over it.

[Mike Franzen]

It should be an easy repair.

[Harry Collins]

Mike,

I Remember replacing a Lifters firing pin for you in the parking lot at Elk Creek, Did I replace a top lever spring for you there on another Parker. I kind of remember doing it for someone in an odd ball place on the tailgate.

Harry

[Mike Franzen]

No sir wasn’t me. Although I think you did mention I had a screw loose :)

[Mark Ray]

UPDATE

I just left Merringtons, and upon taking my 28 bore VH apart, found the little actuator “knurl” snapped off! The metal inside of the break looked like pot metal....very grainy looking.

Now I need an early 00 frame toplever! ����

[Ted Hicks]

I've been trying to understand how the Parker action works but I am not fully up to speed. I hope it is okay to interject a question here to further my learning. If I understand correctly, on your gun the small piece on the end of the top lever shaft that engages the bolt is what broke off? So the top lever would no longer move the bolt rearward to disengage it from the barrel lug to allow the gun to break open? Glad you figured out what the problem is and I hope a replacement top lever is readily available for your gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Yes, the old style top lever linkage consists of 4 separate parts. The lever and the bolt are at opposite ends of the chain and there are two pieces of linkage in-between. If the bottom of the bolt gets damaged, nothing else can be moved.
The later style (post 1910) linkage is a direct connection between lever and bolt this eliminating everything in-between.

The top lever is a hardened part. It would take a good amount of wear and force to break the bottom of it off.

[Brian Dudley]

The here a photo of the parts in both mechanisms.
Early on top. Late on bottom. Their corresponding springs are shown as well.

73989

[Ted Hicks]

Thanks very much Brian, this is helpful. I've been working off an exploded-view diagram and your photo shows the diagram is depicting the post-1910 mechanism.

TxHuntermn's gun has the pre-1910 mechanism, so perhaps one of the pieces circled in red in the photo (taken from your photo) below must have snapped off?

I am working up the courage to take apart one of my Parkers to actually see this stuff for myself.

[Dean Romig]

Ted, make it one of your “throw away” Parkers.





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[Ted Hicks]

I don't have any of those, Dean...yet. But given my utter lack of mechanical skills, once I get started I just may end up with one. Perhaps I could donate it to the PGCA to be circulated amongst the membership so anyone who wants to learn could practice on it. All kidding aside, I do worry that sooner rather than later there won't be a competent gunsmith in my area to rely on. I've been thinking that it would be a good idea to be able to at least handle the simple issues myself.

[Mark Ray]

UPDATE

I just left Merringtons, and upon taking my 28 bore VH apart, found the little actuator “knurl” snapped off! The metal inside of the break looked like pot metal....very grainy looking.

Now I need an early 00 frame toplever! ����

That was super unclear...it is the part of the top lever.

[Mark Ray]

Thanks very much Brian, this is helpful. I've been working off an exploded-view diagram and your photo shows the diagram is depicting the post-1910 mechanism.

TxHuntermn's gun has the pre-1910 mechanism, so perhaps one of the pieces circled in red in the photo (taken from your photo) below must have snapped off?

I am working up the courage to take apart one of my Parkers to actually see this stuff for myself.

The part in the upper red circle broke away.

Are top levers frame specific??

[Mark Beasland]

Have someone repair the original broken part.

[Mark Ray]

It may well come to that, but Merrington has concerns over the quality of the steel in the original part. In the attached photos you can see that it is very crystalline, almost like what I used to call "pot metal". It is easy to see why the lever design was changed, that little piece that broke off is put to considerable mechanical strain, and I can see how easily it could be compromised.

[Eric Eis]

Mark I'll look again

[Brian Dudley]

Mark.

That is NOT the early style lever. That is the late (post 1910) lever.

As you said, your gun serial numbers to after 1910.

[Mark Ray]

I’m confused then Brian. You say the top lever in your photograph is the “early” style, and mine is identical.

[Mark Ray]

Additionally, my gun has v spring, and no coil spring.

[Richard Flanders]

That should be an easy fix for a good micro welder. I'd recommend Al Edge.

[Brian Dudley]

I’m confused then Brian. You say the top lever in your photograph is the “early” style, and mine is identical.



Mark,

In my photo, I show both styles of levers.

Yours is the late style.

The guns made from 1910 to about 1917-1917 used the late lever, but the early style V spring. After that is when the pocketed coil spring was used.

Personally, I think that repairing the broken lever is the best option since finding a 00 frame top lever from that 1910-1918 window will be a tall order.

[Mark Ray]

That should be an easy fix for a good micro welder. I'd recommend Al Edge.

Thanks Richard, that fix is quickly becoming the most prudent option.

Do you have Al’s contact info?

[Justin Julian]

I believe the top levers are serial numbered...if you replace it rather than repair it, you will no longer have a "matching numbers" gun, if that matters to you.