When Did The Fear Factor Start?

[Mike Stahle]

What year or decade did the “never shoot modern shells from a Damascus barreled shotgun start?

I had an interesting (to say the least) reaction from a 71 year old awhile back, not long after I purchased my parker GH #1 frame Damascus barreled shotgun.

His first question was “why would you ever buy a Damascus barreled shotgun? You can’t shoot them with anything other than black powder shells.” :nono:

Then a few weeks ago I mentioned to him I was now shooting plain jane wally-world shotgun shells out of her with excellent results. His reaction was as if he saw a ghost, or "I" was, or should be the ghost. :eek:

So what was it, the gun-rag writers back in the day, or just a lot of unfounded hearsay passed along at deer camp?

[Dean Romig]

The Big Scare was pretty much the brainchild of the firearms/auumnition manufacturers. A great way to sell unprecedented numbers of new shotguns was to put fear into the minds of those who had been holding onto their trusty Damascus barreled shotguns. Invent a new powder but let it be known that this new, modern, far superior powder was too powerful for their old guns.....

It seems to have been very effective for nearly a century.

[Mark Landskov]

I have a 'fresh from the case' box of Winchester 'Super Speed' 12 gauge shells with the 'Do not use in Damascus or other twist steel barrels' warning. The box dates from the late 1930s and the load is 3-3/4 Dram EQ with 1-1/4 ounces of 6c shot.

[Richard Flanders]

Send them to me Mark!! My 1883 twist bbl hammer gun loves them.... I shot some of those at pheasants in N Dakota; they work great.

[Jim Williams]

While I do buy into the theory that the warnings definitely helped sell new guns, we also have to give the shell manufacturers of the day a little leeway by remembering that there were quite a few cheap guns with twist barrels of inferior quality being imported into the country in those days. It would have been hard for them to describe how the average sportsman with no keen interest in maunufacturing techniques could distinguish the difference between quality barrels and inferior junk.

[Bruce Day]

I don't think the question is answerable. No one has found any smoking guns to the ammo manufacturers for the conspiracy theory and some of the damascus and fake damascus was inferior and dangerous.

The best thing that I can recommend is to join the PGCA, Jim and Mike, spread the real story and facts to others and urge others to not be swayed by unfounded opinions.

[Jim Williams]

Bruce,

Just what in my statement suggests to you that I am swayed by unfounded opinions?

Jim

[Bruce Day]

Nothing at all. In fact I have no reason to believe that you are at all. I've never seen anything unreasonable from you.
I only mentioned you by name because I see you here, you are always reasonable and I'd like to see you join the PGCA. We always need good people.

PS I reviewed my original comment and saw that it could be taken in a way I did not intend, so I edited it. Better now?

[Gill Frye]

I recently tried to do a little trading that involved my DH damascus...the guy at the gun shop would hardly look at it once he saw the barrels....what really tickled me was he could have been looking at A1 special and it wouldn't have made any difference. I won't name the shop but he's a high end dealer in eastern North Carolina, needless to say I was surprised by how he acted.
Regards,
Gill

[Bruce Day]

A buyer of damascus guns can still get great deals from unknowing and uninformed sellers, so it works both ways.

[Jim Williams]

Thanks for the clarification, Bruce. I was scratching my head because your reply said something very similar to what I had written. No worries.

Jim

[Dean Romig]

Jim and Bruce, it is certainly a fact that there were countless guns of inferrior quality, especially in the quality of the barrels, in the hands of the 'common man' in those days and certainly there were probably a lot of burst barrels as a result of the confusion over "dr. eq." of the new smokeless powders. And without question this confusion could have been cleared up to a great degree by the ammunition companies (which were largely subsidiaries of major gun manufacturers or in business agreements with them) with more widespread warnings.... BUT they didn't go as far as they could have - opting instead to do what they did - to blanket ALL Damascus or Twist barreled guns with the dire warnings they printed on all boxes of ammunition and cans of smokeless powders - and that, gentlemen, is fact.

[Leighton Stallones]

Here is an interesting letter from the 60's

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/33919Ithaca.jpg

[Dave Suponski]

I wonder if Parker Bros. were still in business in 1966 would they have given the same advice.

[Dean Romig]

Given the litigious nature of American society, if not in 1966, certainly by now they would have. In the early part of the 1900's people took responsibility for their own actions but ever more prevalent as the century churned onward was the threat to manufacturers of liability for the failure of their products even due to the blatant stupidity of the user.

[Dave Suponski]

Ya, I would think you're right....:banghead:

[Mike Stahle]

Here is an interesting letter from the 60's

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/33919Ithaca.jpg


Wow! Talk about taking it a step further, “not even black powder” :eek:
I can just imagine a good number of fine American turn of the century
skilled craftsmen in unison rolling over in their grave's in total disgust.

[Leighton Stallones]

Note: HIS COMMENT" AFTER CAREFUL CONSIDERATION IN WHICH SUCH BARRELS HAVE FAILED"
I SUSPECT THAT HE HAD A VERY SHORT LIST OF SUCH BARRELS
HAVING FAILED ,IF ANY. OF THE MANY THAT I KNOW OF THAT FAILED, MOST WERE STEEL BARRELS NOT DAMASCUS. HOW MANY THOUSANDS IF NOT MILLIONS OF ROUNDS HAVE BEEN FIRED IN TWIST AND DAMASCUS AND FEW EVERY REPORTED?

[Richard Flanders]

If I remember Shermans black powder pressure curves it seems that black powder might be more likely than smokeless to blow a damascus bbl. Seems it reached peak pressure sooner than smokeless did. Am I remembering correctly??

[Mike Stahle]

If I remember Shermans black powder pressure curves it seems that black powder might be more likely than smokeless to blow a damascus bbl. Seems it reached peak pressure sooner than smokeless did. Am I remembering correctly??

I don't no about the black powder pressure question. But I do know first hand when
going above the 3 dram level of black powder, the recoil gets very intense.
I got very concerned about the beating the stock was taking.

[Bruce Day]

Black powder had a steep pressure curve than modern smokeless, so yes, the pressure rise was more abrupt than drawn-out.

Could it be that Ithaca offered a solution while stating that the fellow's old gun was unsafe? And that solution was buying a new Ithaca?

[Dave Suponski]

The first thing to remember is that black powder is an explosive and smokeless is a propellant. Black powder invites a much more robust pressure curve as Mike state's.

[todd allen]

My theory has always been that the gun manufacturers wanted to discontinue the use of Damascus for bbl steel, because of the tremendous amount of labor required to manufacture a quality set of bbls.
(I've made some of my better deals on guns, because of having Damascus, or twist steel bbls, btw)
Using fluid steel probably cuts the labor costs of building a gun in half. From a strictly marketing standpoint, it would have made total sense to the gun makers to promote the "Damascus is dangerous" bogeyman, because it would automatically make a whole generation of existing guns obsolete.
I wouldn't put it past gun makers of the day, to capitalize on the Damascus scare to sell more guns. I'm glad they did, as there are a lot more guns out there for our consumption.

[Dean Romig]

Could it be that Ithaca offered a solution while stating that the fellow's old gun was unsafe? And that solution was buying a new Ithaca?

I'll bet a dollar that the envelpoe containing that letter also contained Ithaca Gun sales brochures or catalogs :cool:

[Jerry Andrews]

When I jumped in to the double gun market in 1975, the scare was the lines between the welds would have microscopic " rusting " areas that would lead to catastrophic failure if shot. I guess that's a possible scenario, but so is a bird flying down the barrel at the exact moment of pulling the trigger. I must admit that when I heard the banter on this board and the L.C. Smith board I thought everyone on here had lost their minds. Once reading the different articles however on gun testing, it's made me think completely the opposite way. These new shells available with contained pressures sure have breathed some new life into some of the most beautiful guns ever made. This 10 gauge hammer gun I just acquired with all the case colors and barrell pattern have made me appreciate a gun type I've never really noticed. No doubt, these damascus/twist barrelled guns were the most gorgeous guns America ever produced. The EH 10 gauge hammerless is also a simply beautiful gun, but it can't hold a candle to the hammer gun. The hammer gun has the crooked top lever, and a lock up as tight as a drum. What quality! I'd like to thank those on this board kind enough to put up with my neophyte questioning about these old firesticks. Thanks much, Jerry

[Dean Romig]

Jerry, it's been a real pleasure reading your posts and being witness to your eager education. I find your willingness to jump right in and join discussions as an eager student refreshing. I hope you enjoy shooting those two beauties.

Dean

[Paul Harm]

Mike, I could be wrong, but I don't believe the heavier recoil from a stiffer BP load will hurt the gun. It's the high pressure, not recoil that loosens the action and cracks stocks. Even a 3 3/4dram BP load is under or around 7000psi- which is not high. I've shoot many 3 1/2 dram 1oz loads - my buddy always claims " now that sounds and looks like a real gun going off ". And I say, " yea, and it feels like it ". Of course I'm useing a Parker Hammer Gun that weighs aroung 8lbs. Paul

[Jerry Andrews]

Dean, I doubt if I ever fire the guns, they are not my cup of tea for shooting, and I'd be sick at my stomach if the stock cracked on the hammer gun. Being a stockmaker of these old babies, I'm fully aware, more so than most, of how fragile these old stocks really are. Then again, some are shot for years and never crack. I have a Fox I've shot heavy loads for crows through forever and it's still as new. I know they are meant to shoot but when they are this clean I would not want to crack the stock on this one. But then again, they were made for shooting weren't they! Jerry
Thanks for the kind words and ecouragement about using the forum, much appreciated.

[Bruce Day]

Jerry, you've come a long way for a worm fisherman.

Shoot 'em and have fun , just like you do those old fashioned wood stick rods.

Here's one those things from Parker, but its probably not usuable with modern trout.

[Jerry Andrews]

Wouldn't happen to be a Hawes rod would it ? I would love to find one! Jerry
It's odd being a rod maker and stock maker, you'd think I"d fish only my rods and shoot stuff I restocked but I LOVE old bamboo rods! I do shoot an Iver Johnson .410 Skeeter, Miller trigger and ejectors I stocked but otherwise, I love the old stuff. I fish a Leonard 8fter when appropriate. Jerry
The Parker 10 gauges I've decided to sell or trade. As much as I appreciate what they are they aren't my bit. But they sure are gorgeous. Jerry

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Jerry: O.K. you peaked my interest or primed the pump. Pictures of your guns,where are they. Thomas L. Benson Sr.

[Jerry Andrews]

I'm still on vacation in the WV mountains, I'll be back on the 7th, I'll send pictures then. I opened the guns a hour before I left. Thanks much, Jerry

[calvin humburg]

Bruce, that fishing pole looks like it would make a good whip for my buggy horse. ch

[Jerry Andrews]

Buggy whip! Oh my, I just went into anaphylactic shock thinking about that! Is the rod a Hawes do we know? Jerry

[Dean Romig]

Jerry, I believe you will see it in an article on the Parker-Hawes rods in the upcoming issue of Parker Pages.

[calvin humburg]

Sorry, Jerry I'll send u my ep pen. Bruce and his worm fishermen remarks irratate this worm fisherman. good day to all ch

[Rick Losey]

The first thing to remember is that black powder is an explosive and smokeless is a propellant.

many years ago when at DuPONT, one of the older managers told me that exact same thing ............ then he added "but its important to remember it can propell you into little pieces" :)