410 O Frame?

[Mark Ray]

Were any .410's made on an O frame?

[Randy G Roberts]

Hard to believe never would be accurate but the O frame was not designated for use with the 410.

[Mark Ray]

Looking at a nice ball grip VHE stock that serials to a .410, the frame size stamp next to the serial on the stock is definitely O. Will try and get a measurement out of the seller

[Randy G Roberts]

Mark if we are on the same page that "O" under the tang that is stamped into the stock is not the frame size but rather the grade I believe.

[Randy G Roberts]

Here's an example of a BH or Grade 5 gun with the stamping I am speaking of.

[Mark Ray]

Got it. Thanks

[Mark Ray]

okay, so now a new question. The serialization book, on page 45 where they address frame sizes, has the breech width and standing breech height as being identical between O and OO frame guns. does this mean in general stocks are of the same dimensions for those frame sizes?

[Garry L Gordon]

Here's an example of a BH or Grade 5 gun with the stamping I am speaking of.

Hey, Randy,

Were ALL stocks stamped this way? I did not recall that all were stamped with the grade.

Thanks!

[Randy G Roberts]

Hey, Randy,

Were ALL stocks stamped this way? I did not recall that all were stamped with the grade.

Thanks!

Garry:

I do not possess the knowledge to answer the question as you have posed it, ALL. I can say this however, when I look under a trigger tang and the grade number is missing it is one of those items that makes me suspicious. Does not mean that it is not right, but it just makes me suspicious. That's my approach anyway. Maybe others can offer a more definitive response.

[Randy G Roberts]

Also I am referring to hammerless only. Not sure about hammer versions. To much to keep track of. If we only had minds like Chuck Bishop this would be easy.

[edgarspencer]

okay, so now a new question. The serialization book, on page 45 where they address frame sizes, has the breech width and standing breech height as being identical between O and OO frame guns. does this mean in general stocks are of the same dimensions for those frame sizes?

Mark, an 0 frame Breech face is 1/8" wider than a 00 frame.

[Brian Dudley]

I am pretty sure that the OP is looking at the .410 stock that is for sale on the internet and advertised as an 0. But it is more than likely an 00 frame. The seller should be asked for measurements of the head in order to confirm.
Since an 0 frame .410 would be a very odd duck, if not a non-existent duck.

[Brian Dudley]

Hey, Randy,

Were ALL stocks stamped this way? I did not recall that all were stamped with the grade.

Thanks!


Yes, All stocks are stamped with the grade number.
In the hammerless era at least.

[Mark Ray]

I am pretty sure that the OP is looking at the .410 stock that is for sale on the internet and advertised as an 0. But it is more than likely an 00 frame. The seller should be asked for measurements of the head in order to confirm.
Since an 0 frame .410 would be a very odd duck, if not a non-existent duck.

1 5/8ths”

So O, OO, or OOO?

[Randy G Roberts]

A few examples. Note the screw in 227044 used to hold the grip cap on grade 5 and higher guns.

[Dean Romig]

Mark..... the only correct way to determine frame size is the exact distance between firing pin holes, center to center.

1-5/8” is off the charts. A 7-frame is 1-7/16”

But I think your measurement is the width of the stock head. But this is not the way to determine frame size.





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[Garry L Gordon]

A few examples. Note the screw in 227044 used to hold the grip cap on grade 5 and higher guns.

Thanks for the answer...and, especially, the pictures.

[Dale Medders]

I have the stock that you are referring to. It measures a hair under 1 5/8 or a hair over 1 9/16 at the head.
Serial number 233299
I can't access jpg to add a photo at this time.

[Dean Romig]

233299 is a VHE .410





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[Mills Morrison]

Classic Gunstocks has photos of a 20/28 DHE 2 barrel set on a 00 frame. They have photos on their Facebook page

[Dean Romig]

Never heard of a 20/28 on a 00-frame but I know of a few on the 0-frame. Just sayin’ I’ve never heard of a 20 gauge built on the 00-frame.

Maybe Ken can chime in here.



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[edgarspencer]

Just sayin’ I’ve never heard of a 20 gauge built on the 00-frame.

If you're referring to Parker Repros, neither have I, but if you're referring to Parker Brothers, Of coarse you have. We just had a long discussion on this and you sent me pictures of one you knew of, and I had barrels, which are now in the hands of another member who has a couple 00 framed 20s.

[Mills Morrison]

The post said 00. Surprised me too

[Dean Romig]

If you're referring to Parker Repros, neither have I, but if you're referring to Parker Brothers, Of coarse you have. We just had a long discussion on this and you sent me pictures of one you knew of, and I had barrels, which are now in the hands of another member who has a couple 00 framed 20s.

I don’t recall ever referring to a frame size in discussing the ones I know of...

Can you refresh me on that?





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[edgarspencer]

I don’t recall ever referring to a frame size in discussing the ones I know of...

Can you refresh me on that?





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http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26215&page=3
It’s hard to say what you said in this thread as you deleted so many of your posts but in December we were texting about 00 framed 20 gauge guns, Dean Hansen has been posting about his and Austin Hogan had one. All of these were made before the actual “0” designation was developed.

[Dean Romig]

Ooooh those... the pin spacing actually measured smaller than 00-frame spacing.

Moving ahead though, I thought this thread was about hammerless Parkers.





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[Bill Murphy]

These were early hammer guns, correct? Is there a hammerless 20 on a 00 frame? Speaking of guns with barrels squeezed onto small frames, there are #1 frame tens and #000 frame 28s. This is information from the linked thread, repeated.

[Scott Janowski]

Years ago at the Las Vegas Show 1996 or 97, I handled a .410 Parker Skeet configured gun on an “O” frame. The only thing that stopped me from buying it was the $17,000 price tag!

[Dean Romig]

These were early hammer guns, correct? Is there a hammerless 20 on a 00 frame? Speaking of guns with barrels squeezed onto small frames, there are #1 frame tens and #000 frame 28s. This is information from the linked thread, repeated.

1. Yes Bill - Lifters are the ones on the tiny frame size with pin spacing less than that of the 00-frame hammerless guns.

2. No, not that anybody is aware of, including the authors of TPS.





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[edgarspencer]

1. Yes Bill - Lifters are the ones on the tiny frame size with pin spacing less than that of the 00-frame hammerless guns.
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“Less” being a relative term. The firing pin to center of the primer was 1/64” different than the frame size eventuallly given the designation of “00”.

[Dean Romig]

Relative, being the key word, 1/64” is one sixty-fourth of an inch and that is a measurable difference, all things considered. I will have to get out the measuring stick I used when I had Tom’s gun here and put a dial caliper to it.

And I’ll dig out Austin’s records on the one had and see exactly what he measured.

Golly, but you make me work awful hard Edgar....





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[Dean Romig]

I have done more research on two of the AAHE small bore two-barrel sets I mentioned previously and it turns out that I misremembered the details of one of them. That one was made as a 28/26” and 28/28” so, being strictly a 28 gauge and ordered to a specific weight, it was made on the 00-frame and the lugs are marked as such.

The other was made in 1908 as a 20 gauge with an additional set of 28 gauge barrels and being made this early it was most assuredly made on the 9-frame size - that and that there are very likely no 20 gauge Parkers originally made on the 00-frame.

I needed to explain this because I left my post with an unanswered question.





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[Bill Murphy]

Scott J., I wonder who owns that 00 frame .410 today? I would like a second shot at it. It stayed on the market for quite awhile before disappearing.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, are you referring to the .410 prototype?





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[edgarspencer]

Relative, being the key word, 1/64” is one sixty-fourth of an inch . Thank you for explaining that, for those of us who know our fractions, but may not know how to spell the numbers

I’ll dig out Austin’s records on the one had and see exactly what he measured.

Golly, but you make me work awful hard Edgar....
You don't need to dig anything out. The gun is no longer in Austin's estate, but owned by another collector, and we've gotten lots of measurements from it.

[Dean Romig]

You don't need to dig anything out. The gun is no longer in Austin's estate, but owned by another collector, and we've gotten lots of measurements from it.


I know that Edgar, and what was the precise measurement he determined between the firing pin holes center to center?





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[Mark Ray]

Mark..... the only correct way to determine frame size is the exact distance between firing pin holes, center to center.

1-5/8” is off the charts. A 7-frame is 1-7/16”

But I think your measurement is the width of the stock head. But this is not the way to determine frame size.





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I think I just misstated what I am trying to discover. Based upon the chart attached from the serialization book, it would appear, that all other things being equal, the head of stocks from O,OO, and 1/2 frame guns would, should be interchangeable.

[edgarspencer]

Dean, we have discussed this over and over, both on the phone and here. You know the center to center dimension of the early SMALL framed hammer 20s was 29/32", 1/32" smaller than the finally adopted 00 frame, or 1/64" Difference between the actual firing pin of a true 00 framed gun, and the center of the chamber of the early SMALL frame 20s. However, what matters equally is that the width across the bolsters is the same, as is the height of the breech face, from water table to top of bolster.

I typed SMALL all in capitols, because the first several 20 gauge guns were a mix of 1 frame, and the frame eventually adopted as 00 in hammerless guns.
In making many of these early 20ga. guns with such a small frame, Parker Brothers must have had a very good reason, however, it's anyone's guess what it was.

[Dean Romig]

I think I just misstated what I am trying to discover. Based upon the chart attached from the serialization book, it would appear, that all other things being equal, the head of stocks from O,OO, and 1/2 frame guns would, should be interchangeable.

Right Mark. 1 5/8" = 1.625"

I have a 16 gauge on the 0-frame that measures exactly 1.641" so, they're not exact apparently.




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[Bill Murphy]

It does not appear to me that the width of the action (wood) is mentioned in the chart. The wood may be 1 5/8" on the three smaller sizes, but the chart doesn't show it. Dean, no, the 00 frame .410 Scott and I discussed is not a prototype, nor do I believe it is unique. I just know I would like to own it, and will know it when I see it.