Restoration of Fine Sporting Arms

[Joe Graziano]

Though I am generally disposed to positive stories with happy endings, this is no such story. I will reserve comment for later, as I am too angry at the moment. Furious would be more accurate.

Several months ago, I delivered to fellow PGCA member, JJ Roberts, a very nice, perfectly functional, somewhat historic 1910 Parker VH. It had belonged to David J. Hasinger, world record holder, hunter for the Smithsonian and amazing adventurer. On his business card, JJ Roberts touts, “Restoration of Fine Sporting Arms”. JJ recently recommended on the gunsmithing thread John Gillette of Classic Guns. John did the color case hardening on this gun and attempted to reassemble it. I will let his and JJ’s work speak for itself. I will not comment further now, other than to describe what I requested and what was returned to me.

When I delivered the gun to JJ, I requested the following:

-Reblue barrels
-Pick engraving
-Re-do case colors
-Remove electric pencil etched name from action

First, is a before picture of the gun. What follows are pictures of the atrocious mess of non-functioning parts returned to me today. You will note the pile of additional parts not in the gun, the absence of the front bead which was incredibly lost and JJ pretended not to notice it was missing, the buggered screws, the gaps between wood and metal, the one protruding firing pin. Btw, none of the parts that are supposed to move, move. The safety doesn’t work, the triggers don’t function, the barrels are off face, cock-eyed, you name it. And that’s only what I can see as an untrained, regular guy who simply likes to shoot.

I will soon send the gun to a well known double gunsmith who has kindly agreed to evaluate the gun to determine if it’s salvageable. More to follow. Sad day.

Joe Graziano

[Joe Graziano]

More pics

[Joe Graziano]

Pics

[Dean Romig]

Whaaaaat!?! :shock:


It almost seems the frame may have been warped from the color case hardening process.



.






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[Victor Wasylyna]

You may take some heat for this post, but thanks for sharing.

-Victor

[Karl Ferguson]

What a shame Joe ... what a sad day is putting it mildly

[Bill Holcombe]

Yikes....I am sorry to see that.

[Dean H Hanson]

Unfortunate... as polite as it can be.

[Eric Eis]

Wow, good reason for you to be disappointed..............

[MARK KIRCHER]

I for one am glad you did not "bite your tongue" on this one.
That is a criminal act equivalent to slashing a painting or tipping over a sculpture. Tragic.
Has the offender offered any restitution? Taken any responsibility or shown remorse? Was any explanation offered?
My sincere condolences.
That makes my stomach hurt.

[Brian Dudley]

Wow... that IS bad.

The frame did warp. You can see the fit against the stock. It stands up high at the top and stands out on the bottom. The forend iron is warped too.
Hopefully the gun can be fixed, but it would require annealing and re-hardening. And a lot of praying that things have enough memory to go back to where they were, Or at least close. The barrels will likely need to be set back and refitted to compensate for the movement.

The condition of the screws, and the gun not being assembled is completely inexcusable. And a blued top lever on a Parker??!!


I personally would not have removed the name from the gun, it wasn't crudely done and it wasn't just Joe Blow’s name. It was evidence of the history of the fine shooter of the gun.

[Jack Huber]

Sad and shocking. I'm so sorry this happened, but thanks for sharing the story.

I have a good, original VH of the same vintage. I feel like getting it out of the safe and hugging it....

[todd allen]

I personally would not have removed the name from the gun, it wasn't crudely done and it wasn't just Joe Blow’s name. It was evidence of the history of the fine shooter of the gun.

I would agree with this. As to the rest of it - I'm speechless.
Almost like going to a funeral, and not knowing what to say to the bereaved.

[Joe Graziano]

I appreciate everyone's comments and inputs. I will leave the restitution question to private discussions between the parties. The point about removing the name is taken. What I regret most is doing anything at all. It was a perfectly functioning shotgun and in attempt to restore it's beauty, the shotgun may have been destroyed by unbelievably poor workmanship. And yes, that's a blued top lever! Didn't see that one coming. A proper evaluation will soon determine whether the gun can be repaired. When I dropped off the VH for restoration, I could not have imagined the hideous mess of non-functioning, butchered parts that would be returned to me, minus any parts lost along the way, such as the front bead. Brian, I hope you are correct in that annealing, hardening and fitting could possibly put it back together again. If that is the case, I will be a happy man. Today, I am just angry. However, I will hold my fire until I know more and give Mr. Roberts and I the opportunity to work together to resolve this matter. I will update the post as I have more information. Until then, hug those Parkers tight:)

[Joe Graziano]

Something that surprised me beyond the initial shock of the gun being in pieces, even the engraving is a disaster. Compare the engraving on the action around the screws before and after. It's just a mess.

[Jim Thoma]

Absolutely disgusting,how can they send you back your gun back that way they should be paying you for the gun not you for restoring that’s why sometimes you have to leave thinks the way they are, I usually don’t post much just read the great information I get from the Parker guys, but when I saw your pictures before and after it made my stomach turn good luck.

[Chris Travinski]

Did he give you any indication that there were issues before he shipped the gun back to you, or did he just send it to you for evaluation?

My biggest pet-peeve about abused Parkers is buggered up screws. It's something that can easily be fixed even if you put them back in the white or give them a quick blue. To do a full restoration and put back screws like that is pretty crappy. All the other stuff on top of that is inexcusable.

Sorry to see that. I'm interested to see of the smith will hop onto this thread with an explanation.

[Joe Graziano]

Chris, I picked up the gun directly from JJ Roberts last night. I knew there were problems reassembling it after case hardening. It had gone back to Classic Guns to be reassembled. I spoke to John Gillette personally and he asked it be returned to him when JJ Roberts could not resemble it. John claimed his crucible thermostat malfunctioned. JJ said John mistakenly removed the bottom plate before hardening and that caused it, and that John didn’t pay attention during the hardening process due to declining health. I have no idea who is telling the truth and I don’t much care. Between the two of them, they butchered the gun. Right now, I don’t know who mangled the screws. Buggered seems to be too mild a term for it. After a couple months of John Gillette “working on it.” I asked that it be returned. According to JJ, the gun came back as he sent it to Gillette. Gillette had not done anything. I had no idea the extent of the damage to the gun until last night. That is how I received it, in pieces with an apology from JJ. No plan to do anything, simply an I’m sorry. John Gillette did not apologize. To date, neither has made an offer to make this right, or a plan to fix the gun. This has gone on now for several months. I will keep the remainder of the financial matters between JJ Roberts and me. Just unthinkable levels of incompetence. Staggering.

[allen newell]

Are you out any money for this abortion of gunsmithing?

[Reggie Bishop]

Of course he is!! The loss in value of the gun for one! What a shame!

[Garry L Gordon]

So sorry to see what happened to your gun. Also, I really appreciate your sharing the information with us, especially because I know it must be painful to recount. You've helped many avoid an equally bad situation.

[Rick Riddell]

How does this happen? I can understand the frame warping, but the screws and engraving, especially if thats your schtick and you advertise classes for it. I just cant wrap my head around it. You think someone who advertises fine sporting gun restorations would have at least called and replaced the screws and fixed up the engravings, better to have a warped action with all the pieces than a warped action with frozen buggered screws and missing pieces. Its a shame the way you were treated, I can understand things can happen when dealing with guns, but you are the customer and hopefully they make it right.

[John Campbell]

While I can certainly understand Mr. Graziano's frustration with his Parker's "restoration," there is something about this thread that makes me uneasy.

Perhaps it's that the "prosecution" has presented its case... but the defense has not.

What's more, there's an expectation that the two aggrieved parties attempt a private resolution as gentlemen before any public airing of issues. I don't see evidence of that yet.

There are two sides to every story. And I'd hate to see the PGCA Forum even partially descend into the vile mire of ego, incivility and negativism that another notable "BBS" has become.

[Craig Larter]

Some avoid top restoration artists because of expense. Makes top shops look cheap like Turnbull Restorations. Just my opinion. This case is hard for me to believe. Hard to believe anyone with a brain would even return such a train wreck to a customer and expect payment.

[Bill Murphy]

Number one; I would recommend that the moderators not close this thread. Next, I would say that Mr. Roberts has said that Gillette admitted to some serious neglect on the handling of the receiver and maybe other parts. At this point, I would be retaining some legal assistance to recover damages from Gillette. I'm sure he has business insurance that covers such problems. It is up to him whether he feels he can continue his business after his admission that he is "not up to it". The total loss of a very nice VH 12 gauge shouldn't exceed $4500 or $5000 with expenses adding very little. Insurance or a private settlement should compensate the owner. End of story for everyone. No lies, no foul. If a refinisher is "not up to it", let him retire with his reputation intact.

[Garry L Gordon]

While I can certainly understand Mr. Graziano's frustration with his Parker's "restoration," there is something about this thread that makes me uneasy.

Perhaps it's that the "prosecution" has presented its case... but the defense has not.

What's more, there's an expectation that the two aggrieved parties attempt a private resolution as gentlemen before any public airing of issues. I don't see evidence of that yet.

There are two sides to every story. And I'd hate to see the PGCA Forum even partially descend into the vile mire of ego, incivility and negativism that another notable "BBS" has become.

This makes sense, and yes, I'm sure there is another perspective. Although it might be good to know what that is, I also feel like I'm a bystander to all of this and perhaps don't need to know (or should not know) all of the details.

I do think this: If we (as we have) asked to see the results of restoration work done by various smiths and these photos were shown to me, I would not consider sending my guns to that smith for work...whether I know the circumstances or not. As difficult as this matter is for our colleague, I still appreciate seeing the work done by various gunsmiths, no matter what the result. I can draw my own conclusions.

John, I'm glad you brought this up.

[Bill Murphy]

Joe, get a grip. You said that the gun came back to JJ from Gillette with "nothing done". That is obviously not true. It did not come back with "nothing done". Start from the beginning and tell us the real story.

[William Davis]

Mr Roberts did a Dog painting for me, very pleased with the work. Never thought if him as a gunsmith, artist was my understanding.

William

[Eric Eis]

This should never have been released from either shop...Period John G. damaged the gun in his case coloring, but JJ. should never have accepted John's work. This is a huge cluster F.ck that no one want's to take responsibility for! If they did it would never have come up on the forum

[allen newell]

I meant is he out any payments he made for the so called work done on this VH. Sad story

[Bruce Day]

Bachelder left , original right.

Bachelder and Turnbull charge more than some others.

[Joe Graziano]

John, your point is well taken and something I considered before posting. I think the photos speak for themselves. Regarding money, I do think it’s best to keep the specifics between the three parties. I will say that am out the initial payment but that was promised to be returned tomorrow and I expect that it will be. I am however, currently out a Parker shotgun. I expect this will be corrected one way or another with time. I don’t ascribe malice to what happened. Hopefully we can work together to resolve it. You are correct in that if a resolution had been offered, that would have made things exponentially better for all.

[edgarspencer]

In my opinion, it would be foolish to spend another dime on this gun. Any annealing will soften it, but it will erase any 'memory'. Annealing it would only soften it so that it could be mechanically manipulated, and that's a total black hole. I say this because I spent over 30 years making steel, then heat treating it. If a casting warped in heat treat, it was always possible to anneal, straighten, and re-heat treat. All luxuries I may have had are lost once a part is finish machined.

[Rich Anderson]

Mr. Campbell makes a very valid point as there are two sides to every story and we haven't heard from either one of the other parties involved.

John Gillette and JJ Roberts have both done work for me and in every case it was well done. What happened to this particular Parker is a travesty to be sure but lets not get the cart to far in front of the horse in a rush to judgement regarding the other involved parties.

[Joe Graziano]

Rich, I agree. This is an open forum and the other gentlemen are welcome to participate in the discussion. I would love to know what happened between the time I dropped the Parker off, until I picked it up several months later in its current condition. Only those two gentlemen know the answer and I invite them to provide it. The Parker is on its way to be evaluated and will update the post after that is complete.

[Scot Cardillo]

If your point of sale was with Mr. Roberts your dispute is with him, period.

Sounds to me that Mr. Gillette made an honest mistake, and owned up to it instead of slinging bs (which actually says alot about the man). How it's resolved in order to make Mr. Roberts whole, as a result of his indebtedness to you, is between Mr. Gillette and Mr. Roberts. Mr. Roberts, from the sound of it, should be doing whatever it takes to make you happy and as hard as it is due to your frustration, which is understandable, you've got to allow him the opportunity to do that. Sorry to hear your project went sour. Even the best screw up sometimes. Good luck achieving a favorable outcome. I agree w/Edgar, once final machining's occurred..straightening things out is a tall order.

[Joe Graziano]

Scot, you are correct. Again, this is a collector’s forum and my post is about what all can agree is a restoration gone terribly wrong. I have met with Mr. Roberts and we have agreed on a path forward and options for resolving the matter, which I appreciate. I will know in a few days whether or not the frame is repairable. I will update the thread after I know. My update will only involve the restoration of the Parker, which I trust is understandable.

[Patrick Lien]

While I can certainly understand Mr. Graziano's frustration with his Parker's "restoration," there is something about this thread that makes me uneasy.

Perhaps it's that the "prosecution" has presented its case... but the defense has not.

What's more, there's an expectation that the two aggrieved parties attempt a private resolution as gentlemen before any public airing of issues. I don't see evidence of that yet.

There are two sides to every story. And I'd hate to see the PGCA Forum even partially descend into the vile mire of ego, incivility and negativism that another notable "BBS" has become.

Kensal,
The man did not prosecute anyone. He presented the work done and showed the results and gave his actual(photo) and anecdotal evidence of the facts based on his dealing with the men who performed the work. I very much appreciate the fact that he took the time to do this based on his business with people who restore the guns we all pursue. I guess if you lawyerly folks think there is a case to defend, then ok, defend it. From the evidence presented I think you might want to just plead it out as SHIT work and move on. Kensal, You certainly might be a witness for the defense as you like to "lightly restore" guns. Good luck, but I think you have a looser here.

Personally, I think this should be the next Parker of the month to remind people that we should shoot them and not try to make them young again. I feel bad for the owner but I think he should just hang it on the wall and the next time he wants to take a Parker and put lipstick (new case colors) on it he can have a reminder of what might happen.

Patrick Lien

[Joe Graziano]

Darn well said!

[Patrick Lien]

Bachelder left , original right.

Bachelder and Turnbull charge more than some others.

Bruce,
How much Flitz did it take to get Bachelder colors toned down to be comparable to original faded Parker colors?

Patrick Lien

[John Campbell]

Kensal,
The man did not prosecute anyone. He presented the work done and showed the results and gave his actual(photo) and anecdotal evidence of the facts based on his dealing with the men who performed the work. I very much appreciate the fact that he took the time to do this based on his business with people who restore the guns we all pursue. I guess if you lawyerly folks think there is a case to defend, then ok, defend it. From the evidence presented I think you might want to just plead it out as SHIT work and move on. Kensal, You certainly might be a witness for the defense as you like to "lightly restore" guns. Good luck, but I think you have a looser here.

Personally, I think this should be the next Parker of the month to remind people that we should shoot them and not try to make them young again. I feel bad for the owner but I think he should just hang it on the wall and the next time he wants to take a Parker and put lipstick (new case colors) on it he can have a reminder of what might happen.

Patrick Lien

Mr. Lein:
I rest my case with regard in your "BBS Approach" to my observations. And respectfully refer you -- and the Forum Moderator -- to these points from "Forum Decorum":


No profanity will be tolerated.
Do NOT post sexual, racial, or other jokes or cartoons, and/or comments/illustrations that disparage others because they are different.

Do NOT post political discussions concerning Democrats, Republican, or other parties - or liberal versus conservative views/platforms. You may discuss gun rights but be careful not digress into a political debate. For example, encouraging others to vote or join the NRA are acceptable posts. Encouraging others to vote for a certain party or politician is political and not allowed.

Be polite and respectful to others. There are no stupid questions, there are however rude answers which might get the responder a “time out”.
Try to be helpful to others. If you are in a bad mood then please do not participate as your negative mood will undoubtedly show in your posts.
Do NOT drink alcohol and post in this forum. You know who you are – and so do we….

Common respectful and professional debates are encouraged BUT, that does NOT include a personal attack of the person you are debating. Frankly, if you do not like someone - do not fight or attack them in your posts. Please contact them outside this forum and our servers/systems – and then feel free to trade insults.



Have a Blessed Palm Sunday.

[Rick Riddell]

Mr. Lein:
I rest my case with regard in your "BBS Approach" to my observations. And respectfully refer you -- and the Forum Moderator -- to these points from "Forum Decorum"

Have a Blessed Palm Sunday.

Last I will ever say it, and I'm done with this thread, but those in glass houses shouldnt throw stones, you werent the only one to frequent the BBS and as I recall you also broke a few windows until a few of yours got broken. Not a good idea to decry the actions of others that reflect your own. And with that have a blessed Palm Sunday!

[Eric Eis]

Mr. Lein:
I rest my case with regard in your "BBS Approach" to my observations. And respectfully refer you -- and the Forum Moderator -- to these points from "Forum Decorum":


No profanity will be tolerated.
Do NOT post sexual, racial, or other jokes or cartoons, and/or comments/illustrations that disparage others because they are different.

Do NOT post political discussions concerning Democrats, Republican, or other parties - or liberal versus conservative views/platforms. You may discuss gun rights but be careful not digress into a political debate. For example, encouraging others to vote or join the NRA are acceptable posts. Encouraging others to vote for a certain party or politician is political and not allowed.

Be polite and respectful to others. There are no stupid questions, there are however rude answers which might get the responder a “time out”.
Try to be helpful to others. If you are in a bad mood then please do not participate as your negative mood will undoubtedly show in your posts.
Do NOT drink alcohol and post in this forum. You know who you are – and so do we….

Common respectful and professional debates are encouraged BUT, that does NOT include a personal attack of the person you are debating. Frankly, if you do not like someone - do not fight or attack them in your posts. Please contact them outside this forum and our servers/systems – and then feel free to trade insults.



Have a Blessed Palm Sunday.

Sorry John,
This is one of those times we tend to disagree

[John Dunkle]

Folks, when I last checked this thread early last evening - I really respected the maturity and tenor of all the posts on a very difficult subject. My sincerest thanks for that and hope that all parties are able to resolve it to their satisfaction and everyones reputation and resolve well intact....

In the meantime however and later last night - let's not fall off the proverbial "turnip truck" and force the closure of this thread.

Finally - I don't know - nor do I care - what happened on another BBS. That BBS is not this community, nor will I let it became that BBS.

Have a wonderful day,

John D.

[Bruce Day]

[QUOTE=Patrick Lien;271525]Bruce,
How much Flitz did it take to get Bachelder colors toned down to be comparable to original faded Parker colors?

Patrick Lien[/QUOTE

Zero.

But I did wear a leather cattleman’s roping glove and rub rotationally side to side on the frame for a little while to produce wear on the edges. I suppose Flitz would have worked faster and I do favor it’s use on dulled barrels or dull browned frames to bring out some luster. I have suggested folks use Flitz or other metal polish on garishly done case colors.

What do you suggest ? I know that you have nice guns and good skills.

[Craig Budgeon]

Joe, the best advice relating to this thread is from Edgar Spencer. I tried to fix the barreled actions made in Italy of the first Ithaca Classic Doubles after heat treat. I failed. Italian gunsmiths were flown to Victor, NY and spent two weeks attempting to salvage those actions, they failed. The problem was caused by poor machining practice, but the heat treat was the demise of those actions. The barreled actions were made by Merkel in Germany, thereafter. If your determined to repair the gun you may want to seek legal advice first as you may give up your right to compensation.

[King Brown]

Mr. Graziano is to be commended. What makes the world crazy is complacency. If Mr. Graziano had not brought his experience to the board, he would have been corrupted by making it a hide.

[Richard Flanders]

Edgar is spot on... as usual when it comes to matters of metal. I was sitting thinking pretty much what he wrote before I read his post. I wouldn't spend another penny on this one. I'd salvage usable internal parts and give the frame to someone to use as an example of just how wrong things can go and move on. I wouldn't waste my time going after anyone for anything; Life is just too short for that. I'm sitting here now wishing I had my families VH12 that needs a stock and the top rib re-layed so I could send it to Joe so he could try again.

[James J. Roberts]

I meet with Mr. Graziano at the gun show this weekend and gave him my VH Parker frame witch I was saving to engrave and if Joe need any other parts no problem.I have worked with Classic Guns for many years and never had any problems Mr. Gillette has health problems and not been able to watch over the work I will make this right. J.J.Roberts

[todd allen]

I had not heard of Mr. Roberts before, so I did a little Internet research. Nowhere did I see anything negative. Quite the contrary. He has a lot of great reviews, and testimonials.
We can only guess where this went wrong, but appears JJ is on track to make it right.
I'm glad I kept my mouth/keyboard shut.
When I was in business, we learned that sometimes it's more about how you handle screw-ups, than how well you did on your great deeds

[Scot Cardillo]

When I was in business, we learned that sometimes it's more about how you handle screw-ups, than how well you did on your great deeds

+ 10,000

[Joe Graziano]

That is correct. Since this is now in the open, I will confirm. I met with Mr. Roberts at the gun show this weekend. He gave me a VH frame, though I am not sure the size. My gun is built on a #2 frame. We agreed that, pending the outcome of the gun’s evaluation, it would be repaired, if it is repairable. My Roberts agreed that he would pay the cost of those repairs. If it is not repairable, if it is possible to use the VH frame he provided to rebuild the gun, Mr. Roberts would perform the engraving work on it and pay the cost of rebuilding the gun on that frame. What remains to be discussed, is what to do if the gun is not repairable and the provided frame will not work. It would be preferable for that discussion to take place in private but I am happy to be transparent in that as well. As I said, I will post more after the gun is evaluated.

[Joe Graziano]

To update the thread, the gun is a total loss. It was case hardened without being annealed. The frame is warped well beyond repair. Reassembling onto another frame is not possible.

[Eric Eis]

Damn, and just a few months ago I sold a GH and a DH for cheap money that you could have used. Was it just the frame or also the barrels

[Brian Dudley]

To update the thread, the gun is a total loss. It was case hardened without being annealed. The frame is warped well beyond repair. Reassembling onto another frame is not possible.


Huh... then how was the name removed the frame polished and the engraving recut without it being annealed? Not that it could not physically be done, but annealing is a critical step to be done first being any of that sort of work is done.

[Bill Murphy]

I guess the most direct way to end this quickly is for you to find a nice VH in a similar condition to your original gun and have the gunsmiths purchase it for you. No fuss, no muss, and it's all over in the time it takes to ship the gun to you. For someone to "build you a gun from parts" can be a long, drawn out and heartbreaking project, both for you and JJ. This is just my suggestion to make it easy for everyone and let everyone depart friends.

[Craig Budgeon]

Brian, according to J.D. he spot anneals a surface he is going to touch up using a copper plate and torch. I guess it is well known trick among engravers.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig, I don't know who this (JD) guy is, but annealing a spot on a gun won't solve the many problems with this gun.

[Craig Budgeon]

Bill, you don't need to know who J.D. is but I know Brian knows him well. My reply is a direct response to Brians post and if the knowledge expressed benefits members, fine. If you read Brians post you'll notice he questions why annealing was not incorporate when the engraving repairs were made. I gave him a reason and wanted him to know the source so that he could find out more if he chooses for the future. J.D. is one of the finest engravers in the country, to my knowledge has NEVER advertised to seek commissions, is a very private person, is semi retired, and a good friend. Enough said.

[John Dunkle]

Well - that's it....

This thread is closed for now. All seemed back on track between Joe and J.J. - and both have my complements and well done....

This thread will only be reopened if Joe or JJ have anything further to add and let me know with a PM.

Have a nice evening.

John D.

[John Dunkle]

And with my post above - I'm going to paraphrase what Joe Private Messaged me a bit ago. He would like you all to know this:

... I just want to let all know the matter has been resolved..... I think we ALL learned a lot here. I’m glad it is finished....And now, back to shooting! Have a good evening.... Joe

I couldn't have said it better myself - and I would like to thank both Joe and J.J. and all who constructively participated during a somewhat difficult thread...

This thread will remain closed.

John D.