Case hardening.

[john neal]

I have a reproduction I am thinking of sending to be color hardened, I have a 71 Winchester that was done by turnbull. His stuff looks good on a 71 or 86 but I’m afraid it would be a bit much for a 00 frame. Any thoughts

[Scot Cardillo]

If I’m not mistaken, I think Brian Dudley, who is an active member on this site, uses Turnbull for most of his color case. Brian knows Parkers and seems to be of the opinion that DTurnbull replicates the original Parker colors about as good as anyone, so Turnbull’s probably a safe bet. There are others out there as well and I’m sure some members will chime in. Welcome to the site..there’s a great deal of collective knowledge here.

[Jay Gardner]

Bachelder case hardened my 28 Repro and I could not be happier.

JDG

[Dean Romig]

How about folks posting pics of their Parkers re-cased by the various shops who specialize in bone charcoal color case hardening, along with the approximate year it was done. That way we can make a more informed decision.





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[Brian Dudley]

I have a reproduction I am thinking of sending to be color hardened, I have a 71 Winchester that was done by turnbull. His stuff looks good on a 71 or 86 but I’m afraid it would be a bit much for a 00 frame. Any thoughts



You cannot go wrong with turnbull.

The frame size has nothing to do with it.

[Brian Dudley]

The only note i would like to add about re-coloring any repro is that the original “engraving” on them, DHEs particularly, being that they are mostly machine cut is very shallow and lacking detail/dimension. So, the engraving can get a little lost to the eye with new bone charcoal case colors. It is always a good idea to considder having the engraving chased and embellished by hand to make it better stand out. But, that would also add a considerable amount of cost to the job.

[Randy G Roberts]

Turnbull colors done about a year or so ago on a VHE.

[Kirk Potter]

Turnbull.

[Dean Romig]

As shown, Turnbull colors are predominantly a deep blue and are nearly always recognizable as his. My personal preference would be to see more ‘rust-red’ sheen in the mix. This is not to say Turnbull colors aren’t beautiful and well done!

It is difficult to find someone who accurately can replicate original Parker case color. That is why I suggested folks to show their ‘re-cased’ guns, when done and by what shop.





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[Randy G Roberts]

Turnbull gun he did in 2003. I'm with you Dean in that some of them have a bit much of that blue hue to them which Ballistol really brings out.

[Jay Gardner]

Bachelder

https://i.imgur.com/gZ5zsDa.jpg

[Greg Baehman]

About 10 years ago this SCC was re-colored by John Gillette at Classic Guns, Inc., these pics were taken about two years ago. The gun's original engraving was chased by an outside engraver employed by John Gillette, it cost an additional $150, at that time, to have it done.

[john neal]

this is my 71, a lot of blue

[Brian Dudley]

Comparing a winchester lever gun to a Parker is apples to oranges.

[john neal]

I understand you cant compare them, however I do not want that much blue on my reproduction. I also assume turnbull who did my 71 would do a reproduction with the same process.

[Greg Baehman]

For more of an apples-to-apples comparison of original Parker Bros. colors to those of shops offering re-casecoloring of Parker Reproductions, I would have preferred to have found an original Parker Bros. DH grade in absolute pristine condition as it appeared when it left the factory. But instead, this Trojan is the best I could find -- it is described as "museum quality" and "with almost 100% vibrant color". We can each decide for ourselves which shop or shops are most closely replicating original Parker Bros. colors -- if that is the goal.

[Brian Dudley]

I understand you cant compare them, however I do not want that much blue on my reproduction. I also assume turnbull who did my 71 would do a reproduction with the same process.



As I understand it, different processes are used for different types of guns. But that would really be a question better asked directly to and confirmed by the actual shop doing the work.

I have had a lot of Repros colored by Turnbulls shop and they all have turned out great. But most of them were A-1 specials with full coverage engraving, so there is not much point in posting photos of them here since they would not compare completely to a DHE.

[john neal]

I got ya now, I would have assumed his process would be the same for all.

[Brian Dudley]

Processes aside, you have different materials of very different designs that will also effect the end result.

[Marty Kohler]

Brad Bachelder 2017

[Eric Eis]

I got ya now, I would have assumed his process would be the same for all.

what Brain was trying to point out is on an A1 with so much engraving it's hard to see the colors vs a VH gun like Greg posted. But I think you already know that and just want to come on this board to stir the pot............... So please show us some of your guns that have been recased and who did them

[Sam Casey]

I have used the Bachelder shop in MI for work on various SxS’s over the years with great satisfaction, however, when checking around recently about some trigger work on a M21, was told by respected source that the “senior” Bachelder had passed and the shop was not producing the high quality work that it did in past.

[John Dallas]

Yes, Brad passed, but his son Parker has been well schooled by his dad. Wait times may be longer due to having one less pair of skilled hands in the shop, but other than that, I've heard nothing bad.
BTW, Brad was the last person schooled in the Winchester Custom Shop. He knew his way around Winchesters. I carried in a M42 skeet gun with an ejection problem, he grabbed the gun, went behind the curtain and returned a out 3 minutes later with a perfectly functioning gun. What a guy!

[Dean Romig]

Our dear old friend Charlie Price wrote an article for Parker Pages a few years back, in the Spring 2015 Issue titled "Parker Case Hardening Colors" and he provided several photos of examples of original case colors and some redone colors. It is a really good article and he was always so kind and generous to share his knowledge gained through a lifetime of personal experience.

It was incredibly easy to find this article on my Parker Pages Digital Archive that I have downloaded from the DVD to my PC. Incidentally, the PPDA is $50 to PGCA Members only and is not available to non-members.


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[John Taddeo]

Turnbull and Batchelder... Respectively...

[Garry L Gordon]

This is a complex question (as many of this kind are). Since all existing, original Parker case hardening has aged a great deal, I think our idea of what Parker case hardening looked like "new" is educated conjecture at best. Comparing Turnbull or Bachelder colors is one thing, and maybe judging our preferences is as much about those preferences as anything else. They all look nice to me...original or not.

[Bruce Day]

Case colors:

Left : CHE 16/28 1903 Bachelder colors 2016

Right : CHE 16/28 1910 original case colors

[John Dallas]

I support Garry's thoughts. When we are looking at "original" colors, we are actually looking at colors which are a hundred or so years old. Did they change over the last century? I don't think anyone can answer that

[Garry L Gordon]

Case colors:

Left : CHE 16/28 1903 Bachelder colors 2016

Right : CHE 16/28 1910 original case colors

They look pretty darned similar...and beautiful.

[Mike Hunter]

Since I’ve been doing CCH here in the shop for the past 15 or so years, here are some notes and thoughts on Color Case Hardening:

1. It’s been brought up before, most original CCH is 80-100+ years old…which make it pretty hard to compare, colors fade/change.

2. I suspect that the surviving number of firearms with 80-100% factory CCH is in the 1-2% range, so very few examples to judge from.

3. Firearm companies, back in the day, did true Case Hardening, quenching at temperatures most restorers will never get close to. Back then there was an “acceptable” failure rate… I.e.. Warped or cracked frames. Somewhere in my notes I have that number for Winchester, and it was north of 10%. After 1903 Winchester stopped CCH frames because the failure rate was deemed too high. Restorers today don’t truly Case Harden the frame, unlike the large manufacturing companies, we have to have 0% failure rate, temperatures and processes are changed to reflect this.

4. Manufacturers also had the luxury of “virgin” receivers with soft steel. Restorers are working with metal that has been case hardened previously (some multiple times), has been in service for 100 + years, and oftentimes has had repairs (welds etc.). A good restorative color case hardener has to keep all of this in mind.

Not too long ago, I had an 1886 come into the shop, the owner recently had it recased (would not tell me by who). He snapped the butt plate trying to install it on the stock, and the frame was so warped that there was no way it could be reassembled. Looking at the steel, I could easily tell that it had been quenched at too high of a temperature, and more than likely into a brine quench solution (which cools quicker that water). I had to anneal the frame, then spend a couple of hours straightening the frame, make several blocks to keep the frame from moving, then a second annealing to get the frame to take the proper ”set”. Final CCH with the frame all blocked up so that it wouldn’t move, and follow up with a proper tempering.

Lots of thing to consider when judging Colors.

[Bill Murphy]

Old guys like me have examined mint Parkers that left the factory twenty years or less before we examined them. They look the same today. Case color aging without wear or abuse is a myth. The same goes for Foxes. A mint A.H. Fox gun in 1960 looks like a mint Fox gun today.