Parker 3 inch guns

[henderson Marriott]

Parker graded shotguns were chambered for the then-new 3 in Super-X shells by Olin-Western starting in the 1920s-30s to compete with the HE Super Fox, LC Smith Long Range, and Fox-Sterlingworth 3 inch. The Sterlingworths chambered in 3 in were using Fox HE type barrels-but few were made.

I am attempting to determine exactly how many Parker Bros guns were chambered for 3 in shells, and how/where the chamber length size was stamped. There probably were a few chambered by Parker under Remington also.

Continuing to do research on this topic and any information from PGCA members and Parker Forum members-is gratefully appreciated.

[Rick Losey]

Fox-Sterlingworth 3 inch. The Sterlingworths chambered in 3 in were using Fox HE type barrels-but few were made.

I believe these were not really Sterlingworths , but HE parts finished to the lesser grade appearance

as for Parkers, i doubt any specific records were kept totaling guns by chamber length, it would take a great deal of effort to review all of the existing factory records to see how many were done

[Randy G Roberts]

Unfortunately with all the missing books you will not be able to determine "exactly" how many there were. Do you have TPS ? Good place to start.

[Brian Dudley]

There is no way to accurately determine how many Parkers were built in what chamber lengths.

And, except for the later Remington made guns, Parker guns are not marked with chamber length.

[Frank Srebro]

Parker graded shotguns were chambered for the then-new 3 in Super-X shells by Olin-Western starting in the 1920s-30s to compete with the HE Super Fox, LC Smith Long Range, and Fox-Sterlingworth 3 inch. The Sterlingworths chambered in 3 in were using Fox HE type barrels-but few were made.

I am attempting to determine exactly how many Parker Bros guns were chambered for 3 in shells, and how/where the chamber length size was stamped. There probably were a few chambered by Parker under Remington also.

Continuing to do research on this topic and any information from PGCA members and Parker Forum members-is gratefully appreciated.

In light of the Lt Col's keen interest in/research on period 3-inch long range guns perhaps the gentleman will answer here the post he made (on another collector forum) on November 6 and the questions he received on November 10? They are copied below. No answers were forthcoming on that forum since then.

POST: ….. "I have a straight stocked 3 IN SuperFox along with an LC Smith Long Range waterfowl gun. Its interesting to compare patterns of these two guns against a couple of heavy duck Winchester Model 12s. I agree with Crossman that the Super Fox will out range the rest by at least 10 yards in my HE."

QUESTIONS: ….. "can you please tell us about your testing of the (four) guns you cited to include ammunition used, number of shots fired and pattern efficiencies at 40 and greater yardages? Also where did Capt. Crossman write about testing a Super-Fox together with a LCS Long Range and a Model 12 Heavy Duck gun and make that statement? ….."

[Bill Murphy]

This is a test that is easily performed if the guns are available. Years ago, I did a partial comparison, but quit when I shot my old standard Sterlingworth with 1 1/4 ounces of soft lead fours at 40 and 60 yards. The patterns were so tight and even that I stopped my comparison then. I knew in my own mind that no other gun could possibly duplicate those 60 yard patterns. I still have those pattern sheets filed away, to be viewed if lead ever "comes back". I don't have the gun, but I do have a few of the shells left. I guess it would be interesting to pattern a Super Fox with the remaining shells for comparison. As I recall, the Sterlingworth had standard bores and chokes in the low to mid forties. I have never patterned my 3" Model 21s, but I don't expect similar results since the Winchester chokes are in the mid to high thirties, not an optimum choke for extremely tight patterns at long range. In my opinion, forty yard pattern testing is useless if long range shooting is the preferred use of the gun and load. I remember reading the Crossman comments, but don't know how to find the reference material.

[henderson Marriott]

Nash Buckingham and Charles Askins, Sr. were aware of the Crossman tests on Fox guns.
Buckingham owned 2 Super Fox guns in 3in 12 GA for waterfowl.

My tests were and are still ongoing-while shells in coppered #4 and # 5 began to get scarce. That and hunting trips in the west. I have renewed the testing with field notes
and spread sheets at 55 yards for all 4 guns, including Heavy duck Model 12s
Long Range LC Smith, and the 30 inch Super Fox extra full Becker-style bores-3inch.
As a Parker Bros. entry, I could not use my 3rd generation 1923 inherited heirloom AAHE
Special. (DGJ-2003-Summer)

Canadian goose hunts this past winter using both the SuperFox and LC Smith
confirmed the Fox outranged all other guns beyond 50 yards in actual effective
wing shooting. Favorite load was Hevishot #4 -3 inch. Results were amazing.
Number 5 shot seems to pattern best at 55 yards on paper circles.

Frank Srebro did the Sterlingworth Wildfowl article in the winter issue(DGJ) of 2015.
HE heavy barrels were used by Fox.

The number of Fox Sterlingworth Wildfowl 3 in guns is just as rare as 3 inch chambered Parkers.
Bill Murphy's results are the same pretty much as mine. AH Fox knew how to make long range guns. Burt Becker tapered and polished forcing cones . With Major Askins assisting in 1922, Becker-bored refined 3inch guns became the HE SuperFox on basically a 10-GA frame.Michael Mc Intosh did an excellent article on the Super Fox in the August 1987 issue of The American Rifleman.
He states"Buckingham was so impressed by the performance of Olin's gun and shells that he immediately abandoned his 34 in Parker and whatever cartridges he had been using. By the time Major Askins arrived in Philadelphia, Buckingham had a Becker-bored Fox of his own and Olin's shells
were beginning to appear in sporting goods stores under the trade name Super-X"

Let me know if you have a 3 inch confirmed-chambered Parker. The research slowly continues.........

[Dave Noreen]

From over sixty years of observation, I only recall seeing one righteous Parker 12-gauge 3-inch gun from the days of progressive burning powder, high velocity, loads. It was Remington era CHE with the grade, gauge and chamber length on the left side of the barrel lug. It was at Randy Shuman's back in the years the shop was on the back of his house. My gut feeling is that there were a lot more Parker Bros. 12-gauge guns ordered with 3-inch chambers from the 1890s to WW-I than were after.

[henderson Marriott]

Thanks. Wish I could do more wildfowl hunting between Wien Lake and Fairbanks. Better luck probably near the ABC Islands and Ketchikan.

Nash Buckingham in his early years used a 34 inch Parker for ducks and geese. He was a writer who knew about Fred Kimble's duck guns. Buckingham was fascinated by the back boring efforts of Bert Becker and the AH Fox skilled craftsmen. Gough engraved his first HE/XE SuperFox-then Becker did his special boring on it. "Bo Whoop" now sits at the Ducks Unlimited HQ in Memphis. It brought a record amount at auction. Few shotguns share its use or history. It would be nice to get that CHE 3 inch chambered Parker and wring it out against my Super Fox at 55 yards.

I am a former PGCA member with overdue membership dues.......mea culpa.

[Bill Murphy]

A 3" VHE was sold in Maryland several years ago. Mark Conrad owned it for a while and maybe he can tell you who owns it now. It was a late Remington gun made on a 1 1/2 frame, 30" barrels, marked 3" on the left lug. It was a bit light for a 3" gun, but then so is a 3" Model 21.

[henderson Marriott]

Thanks Bill. I will try to get hold of him, but feel free to mention this effort if you will.
I have been away from the Parker fold for awhile.

Have been tempted to take the family AAHE on turkey hunts, but end up reaching for the Super Fox or the Smith Long Range Waterfowl. The real advantage of long range vintage doubles-DTs-is an immediate ability to choose a different shot size shell with each barrel-depending on the hunting situation and fowl.

I really am interested in seeing how a Parker 3 inch gun patterns, and it probably
will be a later Remington version. The later Super Fox and Sterlingworth Long Range
Waterfowl shotguns were built during the 1930s Savage-Fox era, and the Depression with reduced conservation limits on ducks -all contributed to reduce new shotgun demand. Tight chambers, over boring, and extra heavy choking insured the Fox
heavy framed Supers would shoot well at long range. However, records indicate only about 35 Sterlingworth Wildfowl Grades with Super barrels and frames were made.

My tests with a personal Super Fox 3 in came close to Frank Srebro's Sterlingworth 3 in with 1 5/8 oz of No. 4 shot with W-W Super X older shot shells: 82 % patterns at 50 yards with
48 % patterns at 58 yards. The Winchester Heavy Duck M-12 was not far off
at 79% and 40% same range and loadings. The LC Smith Long Range split the difference
in percentages with 81% and 44% respectively. Best patterns with No 5 shot by W-W 3-in were 90% at 50 yds with the Super Fox. Close to what Fox claimed and Crossman-
Askins-Buckingham found in CERTAIN Fox guns.

Wonder how the expensive HeviShot/Bismuth will pattern? Plan to find out, but probably not with the AAHE Parker anytime soon. Need to borrow a 3 inch Parker.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Sir for overviewing this information much of which had been communicated to long range SxS disciples through various books, DGJ articles and posts on the Fox site. Regarding Capt Crossman giving a 10 yard "out ranging" to the Super-Fox over the LCS Long Range and the Model 12 Heavy Duck, I am still skeptical that he ever wrote that. It seems to be second hand lore somehow tied to Buck and Askins perhaps to add some credence. But in fact Askins - who did a phenomenal amount of patterning - is in print (prior to the intro of the Model 12 HD), stating that the Super-Fox and the LCS Long Range were about on par as to long range performance with period 3-inch loads.

There is more to long range pattern efficiency/percentages than overboring and "degree of choke" as measured in thousandths. A few firings of a single LCS LR or S-F for long range patterning might make for a interesting article but the results can't be taken to the bank so to speak.

frank

[scott kittredge]

I had a lettered 3 in. 3 frame vhe 32 in str. Gripped parker.
Scott

[Dave Noreen]

FWIW from a couple of Parker catalogs --

Parker Long Range -- In the 1929 "Flying Geese" catalogue the Brothers P had this to say -- "Magnum, Super, and variously named guns about which so much is now being written are not a new development in the gun makers' art.

For the past twenty years Parker Brothers have made guns to handle heavy charges of powder and shot, giving good patterns at long range. Recent improvements in powder and by shell manufacturers have served to make the Parker Long Range gun even more effective, so that today the Parker built and bored to secure the full power of modern loads with which one may confidently expect to bring down game at distances a few years ago considered impossible, is up to date but not new.

Parker Long Range guns are built to guard the user against abnormal recoil. The weight of the barrels is so distributed that the gun handles the heaviest loads with comfort. The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured that he will receive a gun, easy to handle, sufficiently heavy and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wild fowl at extreme ranges."

The 1937 Remington era catalogue adds -- "Ordinarily Parker 12 gauge guns are chambered for shells up to and including 2 3/4 inches. These guns can be furnished with special long range choke boring to give more effective results at extreme ranges. 12 gauge double barrel guns, with the exception of the "Trojan" are also available with 3 inch chambers for use with maximum long range heavy loaded shells. So chambered, Parker guns are guaranteed to handle these shells properly."

"Parker 10 gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 7/8 inch loads, but are also available with 3 1/2 inch chambers for use with maximum loads. No extra charge for a Parker Long Range Gun. Guns should never be used with shells longer than those for which they are chambered. See table of complete specifications on page 34."

During that time period Remington Arms Co., Inc. never chambered any of their pumps or autoloaders for longer shells, but did offer their "Long Range" choking for an additional charge.

71391

71392

I've never had a chance to run a bore mic in such a Remington barrel, but the two Remington Model 31TC vent ribbed trap barrels I have had a chance to run a bore mic in were .744" while my skeet and field Model 31 barrels have regular bore diameters.

[Frank Srebro]

Written by Capt Edward C Crossman, July 1926, in the Field and Stream magazine:

Parker Brothers are out with what they call Long Range guns with 3-inch chambers, mostly with 34 inch barrels. With all respect to the makers of one of the best guns in the world, all I have seen of such specimens were muzzle-heavy, like other makes of this type. They would cut down rather than add to a man's duck shooting ability at ordinary ranges and in the hands of a man of ordinary strength and duck shooting knowledge.


And here indeed is what Capt Crossman wrote in the same article after testing a L C Smith Long Range against two 3-inch Super-Foxes, no mention of "out ranging" by one maker or the other.

The new type Smith ….. also shot a mean of 80% or better, using Western Super X , 3-inch Ajax Heavies loaded to order, and some Western 3-inch cases with Western components loaded by du Pont to give nearly 1,000 feet with No. 4 shot

N.B. the 1,000 feet cited by the Cap is the average velocity between the muzzle and 40 yards, as shotgun velocity was reported in those days.

[Bill Murphy]

Crossman may state "most with 34" barrels", but empirical study doesn't jive with that. Muzzle heavy doesn't jive with my experience either. Remington era 3" guns I have seen have been on 1 1/2 frames. I think Capt. Crossman is forwarding information that he thinks is true, not what he has experienced. That is what we have seen in the gun press in the thirties through the seventies concerning shotguns. The authors were mostly rifle guys and spit out shared incorrect shotgun information in their writings. As an aside, I would like to see a Parker letter describing a 3" gun in the period from 1926, when Crossman wrote that article, to the Remington era when 3" markings appeared on the barrel lug of barrels not marked on the ribs. I guess Chuck Bishop could conduct some of this research if he is interested.

[henderson Marriott]

These observations from historical experience have achieved the desired result: Parker, AH Fox, and LC Smith adapted their shotguns to the new progressive powders first seen in the 1923-25 work of John Olin. The plain unmarked boxes of 3 inch #4 shot shells first delivered to T. Nash Buckingham sparked a continued interest in long range wildfowl shotgunning that still exists today. Mr. Buck preferred copper plated #4s.

Shot columns of the 1920s and progressive powders have given way to plastic cups and power pistons.
The heavier-than-lead non-toxic shot shells have the potential to extend maximum effective range-if not measured range-
even further, particularly for duck, goose and turkey hunting. It remains to be seen how
the newer non-toxics with shot column modifications perform in individual shotguns by Parker, AH Fox and LC Smith. Certainly any extended testing will get pricey considering the current cost of even a few boxes of Bismuth-HEVISHOT and others heavier -than-lead now on the market.

[Phillip Carr]

I have a Parker Hammer gun made in 1890 that letters to 3” chambers per customers request.

[Drew Hause]

Complicating the survey of 3" chambered Parker guns will be the fact that many turn-of-the-century trap shooters ordered 2 7/8", 3" and even 3 1/4" chambers.

October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
Dr. J.L. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell (possibly with a 3" chamber), and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.

In Feb. 1898, C.W. Budd received on consignment a Parker $400 AAH Pigeon Gun SN 87449 with 30” Whitworth barrels F/F and 2 7/8” chambers (likely for 3" shells).

A Cashmore Pigeon Gun 3 1/4" cases. I don't know the chamber length.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/403893052.jpg

Interestingly, the 1894-95 Montgomery Ward catalog listed "The Parker Long Range"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/414017895.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Smith LRWF marketing verbiage touted "special boring" -

"A distinctive L.C. Smith method of choking adds 15 to 20 yards to ordinary shotgun range...specially bored to a longer, tapering choke..."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/410429369.jpg

But LRWF bores are usually .730 without tapering to the choke constriction of about 3 inches.

Despite the "clean kills at 80 yds." claims, this is pattern testing by David Williamson with .042" choke 32" LRWF at a measured 80 yards using 3 inch Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot. The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce. Number of pellets in duck for 3 shots: 5,6 & 6. Pattern % in 30" circle: 5.3 = 13 pellets, 8.1 = 20 pellets & 8.5 = 21 pellets.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/411836838.jpg

[Richard Flanders]

Other than near the Tanana River and on the Minto Flats, it's mostly very unproductive vegetated sand dune country between Wien Lk and Fairbanks. I've hunted the Minto Flats for many years but it's been so flooded the past few years that it's difficult to hunt these days. The island we camped on for decades is now submerged.

[Drew Hause]

Might be good to add one of these magic guns to the long range pattern trial :rolleyes:

Sporting Life August 25, 1886 -
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/21995

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/399203606.jpg

[Rick Losey]

thanks Drew-

I see these ads and wonder if any of these off brand "long range" guns survived use

[Drew Hause]

More 3" "Long Range" guns

3" "Perfect" cartridge; 1904-1914 W.J. Jeffery & Co. catalogs

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/413299873.jpg

VL&D were the U.S. agents for G.E. Lewis in 1923

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/402327480.jpg

Davis Hy-Power 1927
"...parchment paper capsule that extends beyond the chamber into the bore of the gun."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/323518108.jpg

[Rick Losey]

I tried to buy a Lewis 3" a couple years ago - it was originally shipped to Nova Scotia

one of the members here had owned it- sold or traded it to a dealer who offered me a price but had excuses for why he couldn't get me some detail photos.

that was a quality gun from a known maker

here is a thread from the member that owned it for a while

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15062&highlight=lewis

[henderson Marriott]

John Olin deserves part credit for the renewed interest in longer effective range shotguns
in the 1920s. His Super-X 3 inch shells with improved progressive powders, copper plated shot reduced deformation and shot stringing at longer ranges. The HE Super Foxes in the hands of Nash Buckingham and others of the period increased the demand enough so that LC Smith, Fox, Parker and Winchester received more orders for their specialized 3-inch guns.

It is generally conceded that Burt Becker, Maj Charles Askins and AH Fox did a great deal of successful
work with the 3 inch HE Super Fox, and the results without question influenced the
hunting and shooting public. Achieving EFFECTIVE patterns on game at longer ranges
has been shown through Becker-bored Fox barrels to be: a unique style of over-boring, tapered polished forcing cones,
very tight chambers, specialized choke boring, and final bore extra polishing. Along with specialized 3 inch progressive powder shot shells.

Arguments to the contrary might surmise that other factors were in play with developing
the AH Fox HE Super Fox and Sterlingworth Wild Fowl Grades effectiveness. Unless empirical evidence is shown, I tend to withhold judgment. Becker did not sprinkle magic dust on his barrels to get the REPEATABLE pattern results that his barrels achieved.

All other factors being equal- the 3 in Parker, AH Fox, and LC Smith shotguns would send more effective pellets down range to their targets in the duck and goose marshes
than their shorter 12 gauge cousins. That being said, every shotgun has individual
performance characteristics.

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=Bill Murphy;... "I think Capt. Crossman is forwarding information that he thinks is true, not what he has experienced. That is what we have seen in the gun press in the thirties through the seventies concerning shotguns. The authors were mostly rifle guys and spit out shared incorrect shotgun information in their writings."

Rather 'Muderlakian', wouldn't you say?

[Dave Noreen]

The Western Cartridge Co. Super-X (progressive burning powder, high-velocity) 12-gauge 1 1/4 ounce and the 20-gauge 1 ounce loads were introduced in 1922, put up in their 2 3/4 inch FIELD shell --

71401

71402

71403

The 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load followed later that year or early 1923, but put up in their 2 9/16 inch FIELD shell.

The 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load of 1 3/8 ounce of shot, put up in Western's 3-inch RECORD case finally hit the market in the 1924-5 time frame --

71406

71404

Super-X loads with the Lubaloy (copperized) shot first appear in the February 1, 1929, Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun.

71405

[Dave Noreen]

Those Lubaloy loads were mighty spendy. The list price of the RECORD 3-inch Super-X load with 1 3/8 ounce of chilled shot was $68.50 per thousand.

71408

For 1931, Western Cartridge Co. began loading all their smokeless powder shotgun shells with non-corrosive primers.

By 1933, Western Cartridge Co. was advertising their Seal-Tite wad in the Super-X loads --

71407

The Super-X loads continued to evolve. To my mind, the Super-X came of age, shortly after I was born, when they got the Super-Seal Cup Wad and the Super-Seal Crimp --

71409

[Craig Larter]

I believe Parker was ahead of the curve with respect to barrel boring. I have a 1917 12ga #3 frame 12ga that was patterned with #1 shot and 2 7/8" chambers. The bores measure .740/.742 with chokes of .037/.040. I believe the barrel men in Meridan knew large shot patterned better in a over-bored barrel. I bet Becker, Olin and Fox started with that knowledge when they developed the 3" Super-X loads.

[Garry L Gordon]

I believe Parker was ahead of the curve with respect to barrel boring. I have a 1917 12ga #3 frame 12ga that was patterned with #1 shot and 2 7/8" chambers. The bores measure .740/.742 with chokes of .037/.040. I believe the barrel men in Meridan knew large shot patterned better in a over-bored barrel.

Craig, I'm just curious what grade this gun is. Not that it makes a difference -- but I continue to be in awe of what the craftsmen at Parker did in ALL grades of guns they produced. I have a 30" Damascus barreled GH with .040 chokes in both barrels. The gun letters to weigh 7 lbs. and it still does. The barrel strikers took 7 oz. off the barrels to produce this grade 2 gun. For a production shotgun, I cannot imagine similar individual care like this in too many other "lower grade" products.

Your example is yet another of many I'm aware of that agree with your belief about the men (and women) in Meriden.

[Craig Larter]

Garry It's a CHE. I know overbored Parker 12ga guns are known, I believe Austin Hogan wrote about the the existence of overbored Parkers when he did a DGJ article about the Buckingham Super Fox 30069. Obviously I can't prove the gun was overbored from the factory but it is common knowledge larger shot sizes pattern better in overbored barrels. The wall thickness is .030/.033. So who knows.

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry It's a CHE. I know overbored Parker 12ga guns are known, I believe Austin Hogan wrote about the the existence of overbored Parkers when he did a DGJ article about the Buckingham Super Fox 30069. Obviously I can't prove the gun was overbored from the factory but it is common knowledge larger shot sizes pattern better in overbored barrels. The wall thickness is .030/.033. So who knows.

Beautiful gun(!), Craig. I don't doubt that the craftsmen at Parker overbored to get better patterns. For "mass produced" guns, there was an amazing amount of time spent on each gun that came from Meriden.

Thanks for answering my question...and for posting that great photo.

[Dave Noreen]

Over boring seems to have been tried by many different gun makers over time.

71417

Most of the Ithaca Guns made before 1934 that I've run a bore mic in were over bored. Seems from my limited observations that about the time Ithaca dropped the cocking indicators, their bores fell into spec.

Every trap shooter knows you can't get that Nth target without a Stan Baker "Big Bore" barrel on your Ljutic!!

[Jim McKee]

Drew,
Thanks for posting the adds for these shotguns.
At one time I searched for a 10 bore W.J. Jeffrey for the"Perfect" cartridge with no luck.
The 10 bore "perfect" was nearly an 8 bore which could be legal here for waterfowl, maybe.
This thread is interesting. Keep testing those shotguns and reporting the results.
Thanks to all.
Jim

More 3" "Long Range" guns

3" "Perfect" cartridge; 1904-1914 W.J. Jeffery & Co. catalogs

[charlie cleveland]

i donot have a factory 3 inch parker but i do have a 3 1/2 inch chambered p grade gun three frame ...i figure somebody made them selves a goose gun it has modified chokes....i used it on a duck and goose hunt my grandson took me on to arkansaw....used steel shot to got one big goose and2 duck with it....the barrel weighs 5 lb 14 ounce so the chamber end still has plenty of side walls....looks like they put a new stock on it so i dont worry about a cracked stock.....love these old big frame 3 inch chambered guns longer the chamber better i like them....charlie

[henderson Marriott]

Charlie:

That sounds like just the shotgun I need for testing. Bet it will handle #4s
and BBs just fine. The long barreled Parkers, Smiths and Foxes will
reach out.
My Super Fox HE 3 inch straight stock got its share of Canada geese this year. Used super BBs.

[todd allen]

Garry It's a CHE. I know overbored Parker 12ga guns are known, I believe Austin Hogan wrote about the the existence of overbored Parkers when he did a DGJ article about the Buckingham Super Fox 30069. Obviously I can't prove the gun was overbored from the factory but it is common knowledge larger shot sizes pattern better in overbored barrels. The wall thickness is .030/.033. So who knows.

That is a beautiful gun!

[Bob Brown]

I think my Ithaca grade 2 NID 12 gauge 3"magnum was made in 1937. I haven't measured the bores before, but this thread has me wondering. It's at my brother's place right now, but I'll pick it up next time I'm in the city and take some measurements.

[Bill Murphy]

I have in the past questioned the Fox memo to Super Fox owners posted by Researcher. They counsel owners of Super Foxes to obtain and shoot the heavy 3" shells, knowing that many Super Foxes are chambered for 2 3/4" shells. Is this the PR people sitting at desks writing advice to shooters of their guns?

[Frank Srebro]

I have in the past questioned the Fox memo to Super Fox owners posted by Researcher. They counsel owners of Super Foxes to obtain and shoot the heavy 3" shells, knowing that many Super Foxes are chambered for 2 3/4" shells. Is this the PR people sitting at desks writing advice to shooters of their guns?

Granted, many Super-Foxes were chambered for 2-3/4" shells but Supers were being ordered and factory chambered to 3-inch as early as 1923 even though (as Dave reported) the Western Super-X 3-inch/1-3/8 ounce Record load wasn't introduced until 1924-25. Possibly the "Fox memo" referred to by Bill was intended for owners who were handloading for these earliest 3-inch factory guns even though its wording doesn't say that. The blue colored memo/note is shown in Dave's earlier post here - and based on its small size - the context could have been as an insert placed inside boxes of 3-inch Record shell hulls to advise handloaders of the then-new factory 1-3/8 ounce Super-X's.

[Bill Murphy]

It appears that Fox was recommending 3" shells, to be used regardless of whether the user's gun was chambered for 3" shells or not. It seems like a "white collar" oversight.