Lefever HE 16 ga

[Gerald McPherson]

Wanting to look inside just because I have never been there. Is there anything that I need to be aware about or is simple? Help appreciated. Also anyone know where there are instructions such as Brian has on this site for Parkers? Gerald

[Robert Rambler]

Members here would know.:)
https://www.lefevercollectors.com/

[Robert Rambler]

Members here would know. If you haven't been there already .:)
https://www.lefevercollectors.com/

[Bruce Day]

Just take off the side plates ( covers) and you can look inside.

[Gerald McPherson]

2 5/8 in chambers question. What shell was this intended to shoot?

[charlie cleveland]

the 2 5/8 chambers were intended to shoot 2 3/4 inch shells....charlie

[Gerald McPherson]

Well I looked inside and now I think there is a lot going on that is not visible even with the side plates removed concerning ejectors. I have never owned but one Lefever and it was an a grade 16 ga or was it called Grade A many years ago. Anyway I have been researching this HE grade for several days and I am finding more info on this site than elsewhere. Here are some things I have learned. Built around 1903. 2 5/8 in chambers. .667 in. bore. Right barrel is cylinder left is improved cylinder.Min. wall right 45 thou. left 35 thou. 26 inch barrels. XX for small frame. Seems Lefever referred to these as Brush Guns. The quality used to produce these old guns is amazing.It is obvious this gun was very used through through the years. The checkering has held up extremely well and I understand the wood is English walnut. Any comments appreciated still looking for more info. My quail hunting buddy Roy for many many years used a Grade A 16 ga with open chokes. Another friend Pete after hunting with Roy one day was very upset He said Roy killed nine birds while he was trying to catch his dog. I sure miss those fellows. Gerald.

[frank aloia]

frank aloia

[Brian Dudley]

The A grades you refer to were likely Ithaca era boxlocks of the Ithaca designed “nitro special” platform. Lefevers in name only.

The ejector mechanisms on Lefevers is housed completely in the frame and barrels. Nothing in the forend.

[Gerald McPherson]

Yes Brian The grade a that Roy shot was of that era. In his last years the bottom rib came loose. He had it fixed and continued to use it for the remainder of his life. We carried Roy quail hunting until his mind got so bad he could not respond when the birds came up. He never knew his gun was not loaded but he still wanted to go so we went. He had some good setters and we took them too. Do you have one of those in a skeet gun or am I thinking of someone else? His had one trigger. Gerald

[Frank Srebro]

Well I looked inside and now I think there is a lot going on that is not visible even with the side plates removed concerning ejectors. I have never owned but one Lefever and it was an a grade 16 ga or was it called Grade A many years ago. Anyway I have been researching this HE grade for several days and I am finding more info on this site than elsewhere. Here are some things I have learned. Built around 1903. 2 5/8 in chambers. .667 in. bore. Right barrel is cylinder left is improved cylinder.Min. wall right 45 thou. left 35 thou. 26 inch barrels. XX for small frame. Seems Lefever referred to these as Brush Guns. The quality used to produce these old guns is amazing.It is obvious this gun was very used through through the years. The checkering has held up extremely well and I understand the wood is English walnut. Any comments appreciated still looking for more info. My quail hunting buddy Roy for many many years used a Grade A 16 ga with open chokes. Another friend Pete after hunting with Roy one day was very upset He said Roy killed nine birds while he was trying to catch his dog. I sure miss those fellows. Gerald.

I was looking at a 16 bore XX Frame Lefever yesterday and its bores are both .668" and chambers exactly 2-9/16”. You might check your tubes at the muzzle to see if they touch, which Lefever disciples take as proof positive the barrels haven't been cut. Also, you might verify the chokes are tapered right out to the muzzles. Cylinder choke will have a few thou of constriction as per practice at that time, and IC perhaps 6-8 thou of constriction.

[Gerald McPherson]

Thank you Frank; The barrels do touch and the ic barrel has 8 thou restriction. It was measured by a local gunsmith rather quickly without his glasses. I have sent the barrels to Dean Harris for evaluation. I think Bruce Day posted a catalog page from Lefever that referred to this as a brush gun. Relying on bad memory. I find the Lefevers very interesting.

[Bruce Day]

Lefevers are high quality , well designed guns.

I urge you to get the catalog reproduction .

[frank aloia]

frank aloia

[Phil Yearout]

Maybe one of the mods or other folks a lot more knowledgeable than I could PM Frank and help him out? I think he has some things to say but there's an obvious disconnect somewhere :)...

[Gerald McPherson]

One thing that seems strange is when the side plates are removed there is no case color on the inside of the plates as on the underside of the fore end.

[Nick de Guerre]

Gerald,

Dean Harris is the man. His word on the condition of yoir barrels is as good as it gets. Dont spend much on your gun, as H grades are very common.

But they are as well made as an Optimus! Dan Lefever made guns are uniform in build quality, regardless of grade.

As for the plates, I have never seen them case colored on the inside. Which does beg the question as to what his process was, as one would naturally have thought they'd have done it in parts.

Nudge

[Bruce Day]

It was not me that called it a brush gun nor have I seen a catalog state that. The closest is that the catalog states that Lefevers cannot be equaled for “trap, field , brush and wild- fowl shooting.” P. 3.

Enjoy yours. The more you look , the more interesting they become and Lefever shooting qualities are special. Few 16’s of any grade were made . Bob Noble and Josh Lowensteiner here are true Lefever experts . I know some but they know more.

[Gerald McPherson]

Brush chokes on a Lefever catalog page cyl /imp cyl. Bruce I think you posted a catalog page that stated for brush. I can't find it again.

[Nick de Guerre]

Bruce,

Lefever made more 16's than 10's. They are uncommon, but not rare.

The difference is that most 16's were later guns, long after Dan was gone. And by then, few high grade guns in ANY caliber were made.

So while 16's as a gauge are not rare, 16's in ANY grade higher than G grade, are.

Most 10's were made in Dan's time, and all grades are well represented (sans later grades).

NDG

[Bill Murphy]

"More 16s than 10s?" Is that the experience of other Lefever collectors?

[Nick de Guerre]

Bill,

Maybe I should qualify my point, as it certainly can't be diffinitively proven.

It's my assertion, based on a sizable pool of shared data (I am one of several contributors), that this is the case. I am aware of Bob Elliott's estimates, and his books remain the standard from which Lefever information is judged. But his last book was published some 18+ years ago, and much has been learned since then. Certainly, the internet was much newer then, and it has hugely enhanced our knowledge base.

An older collector told me a while back that Elliott was working from a list of only 400+ guns when he produced his estimates. We have seen several thousand now, and have an even clearer picture of what the arc of production looked like. People would likely be surprised as some of what is rare, and what isn't.

Joining the LACA and reading the newsletter is the best way to learn them.

NDG

[Bob Brown]

I'm also interested in seeing an exploded diagram, and perhaps directions for taking them apart. I bought my first Lefever yesterday. 21033 is a 10 gauge EE with stout 30" barrels. My LACA registrstion is pending.

[Nick de Guerre]

Bob,

Congrats on your E grade purchase! That serial range is one of my favorite, both for ingenuity and for the cocking mechanism they were building then...a hook-in-hook design.

You said your gun has ejectors...are they the in-frame type (two L-shaped pieces which sit in recesses milled into the water table), or forend ejectors (typically you will see a screw on each side of the forearm)?

NDG

[Bob Brown]

It has the screws in each side of the forearm, Nick.

[Bill Murphy]

Nick, in the first edition of Elliott's book, the ten gauge was not included in the "rarity chart" that did list the 16 as quite rare. In the second edition, the sixteen was listed as half the production estimate compared to the ten gauge. I am getting my estimates empirically, but would be interested in your sources. I have not had a lot of success in getting any information from the source you are probably referring to. One particular researcher gladly accepts my research but will not share his, in fact is very snitty about anyone who asks. Personally, I have found a kettle of ten gauges for every sixteen collected.

[Nick de Guerre]

Bob,

Your gun has forend type ejectors, which are quite rare. Congrats!

[Nick de Guerre]

Bill,

I sympathize with your frustration regarding Lefever info. Years back I decided my only recourse was to start building my own database. In time, I connected with others and we agreed to share.

I do the same for a few other makes I collect - Sneider, SAC, and others.

So to answer your question as to my source...my answer is "me." My background dovetails nicely with such an information collecting endeavor, and I can mine my information for stats, oddities, etc.

The dispersion of serials we have is fairly even across the years. At current, 10's represent slightpy less than 10%. 16's account for nearly 12%. But because 16's are primarily in the lowest grades, the survivorship should be naturally lower. As such, the odds are that more 16's havent survived the years, and I therefore reason that the gap in percentages is likely larger than 10% vs 12%.

As a statistician, a sample pool of 10% of any population has a very high reliability ("confidence interval"). So when we reach roughly 6,000 serials, I'd say someone should be penning an updated book.

I'll bet it would sell tens of copies !!

NDG

[Bruce Day]

Brush chokes on a Lefever catalog page cyl /imp cyl. Bruce I think you posted a catalog page that stated for brush. I can't find it again.


I found it. The chokes page recommends chokes for brush.

I have an HE 12/28 fluid steel and it’s a great field gun. Enjoy your H.

EE 16/28 with Krupp barrels:

[Bill Murphy]

Nick, for years I have been sending my serial numbers and specs to someone claiming to put this information together for the "common good". Is this person you, or have I been participating in a bogus research activity? You know the name of this person. Is his research being used honestly or just for his satisfaction? PM me if you are reluctant to reply here.

[Nick de Guerre]

Bill,

No, not me. I am a member of LACA but not involved in any way. Im just a guy who found the best way to learn was to start writing stuff down, listening to older guys, etc.

NDG

[Nick de Guerre]

Further on Bob's E grade...it really is quite rare. Other collectors are pretty coy about the topic when asked...I will assert that for end ejector guns are few and far between. The in-frame design was clearly much better, and rightfully became the standard ejector after it's introduction straight on through to the end of the company.

Off the top of my head I can't even recall seeing an E grade so equipped. In that era E's were not the mid-grade gun they eventually became, so it's surprising that an E would have had them, given the price.

Some of the finest Lefever's ever made were produced in the same time frame as your gun, and several are equipped with forend ejectors. The Benjamin Harrison gun which sold a couple years back was so equipped. And others have what I can only guess are experimental features, owing to additional screws whose purpose I don't know. The "Kimball" gun is one...there is a picture of it in Elliott's 2nd book. I wish the guy who owns it would show more pictures, but he never has, that I have seen. He was registered on the old Lefever forum but rarely said anything, and has not joined the new forum as far as I know.

NDG

[Bob Brown]

Thanks for the info, Nick. I'll just mention a few things here and then make new thread with photos. The hook in hook joint is pretty cool, if a bit complicated. In fact, I just figured out how to get the barrels off. Compared to the rest of mySxSs she's a pretty heavy gun. and very nose heavy. 9 lbs 10 oz, and the barrels are 5 lb 5 oz of it. Reminded me of when I picked up a double rifle thinking it was a 20 gauge. Anyway, I'll take some pics and post them in case anyone is interested.

[Brian Dudley]

Some of the finest Lefever's ever made were produced in the same time frame as your gun, and several are equipped with forend ejectors. The Benjamin Harrison gun which sold a couple years back was so equipped. And others have what I can only guess are experimental features, owing to additional screws whose purpose I don't know. The "Kimball" gun is one...there is a picture of it in Elliott's 2nd book. I wish the guy who owns it would show more pictures, but he never has, that I have seen. He was registered on the old Lefever forum but rarely said anything, and has not joined the new forum as far as I know.

NDG

Nick,

The Harrison Optimus was NOT an ejector gun. It was an extractor cocking-rod type action.

The two screws on the top side of the forend irons on guns of this era are for adjusting the contact point on the cocking rods.

[Nick de Guerre]

Nick,

The Harrison Optimus was NOT an ejector gun. It was an extractor cocking-rod type action.

The two screws on the top side of the forend irons on guns of this era are for adjusting the contact point on the cocking rods.


Brian,

You are correct as to the gun...I have my Presidents confused. It was not the Harrison gun, but the Grover Cleveland gun (also in Elliott's book) which I was thinking of. The Harrison gun is indeed a rod cocker.

The screws we're discussing are not on the forend iron, but in the sides of the forearm wood.

NDG

[Gerald McPherson]

Does anyone know where a parts diagram can be found for this Lefever. There is a tiny little spring thing broken and I don't know what is is called. Gerald