Changing choke

[Gerald McPherson]

I have read that guns were returned to Parker Bros. to have chokes opened. Is it known how this was done? Is there someone doing it now who uses the same method and tools. Any bad or good experience having this done? I have a 30 inch Parker special steel that measures 40 and 44 thou. I am thinking about opening the 40 to about 18. Any input is appreciated Thanks. Gerald..

[Daryl Corona]

Please don't touch those wonderfully tight chokes. To me a 30" gun should have tight chokes. Why don't you just shoot it for a while and if you can't live with those chokes sell it. There are loads of guns with more open chokes that might suit your needs. My input Gerald for what it's worth.

[Dave Noreen]

I totally disagree. Unless the gun is some mint condition collector's item open those chokes and make it a useful shooter to you. I had the right barrel of my go-to bird gun opened to improved cylinder in 1966 and have never regretted it one bit.

[Randy G Roberts]

I have opened chokes in the past. It's not gonna happen again. I would rather find another gun with the choking I was after. The more I shoot the more I like tight chokes. Give it a shot, no pun intended.

[Bill Murphy]

If I believe the internet, some day, I will own the last full choke Parkers in the country. Beware those barrel butchers. The ones with the highest reputations, since they get the most business, ruin the most guns.

[Mark Ray]

This is one of those age old arguments that is much more based on art rather than science! If one is a good wingshot, then a full choke gun is useful in any situation, while a cylinder/open choked gun has limitations when it comes to really long shots on tough targets (read clays, wild roosters - geese turkeys). There was a time when I was first shooting live pigeons that i thought my first barrel should be open choked. I have (or had, less and less every year!) very quick reflexes and thought that that open choke would be an advantage. But when I went back and analyzed my shooting, I found that I would lose an occaisional bird that I felt I had center punched. I switched to improved modified for barrel 1, and my first shot dead bird average increased. So, I said all of that to say this, since I have been collecting, I make it a point to shoot different guns as much as possible, but once you open the choke on a gun you cant put that genie back in the bottle.

[Russell E. Cleary]

A recurring debate, but I am glad that this topic is still subject to deliberation.

I respect other's rights to dispose of their property as they see fit, but I cannot reconcile my role as “custodian/steward” with alterations that to me are elective, fundamental and intrinsically irreversible.

[Mark Ray]

CRAP, i just cerakoted my 1178 auto that I shoot ducks with! I have foolishly ruined its collector value in 2119!

[Mark Ray]

Correction 1187

[Eric Eis]

Have you thought about shooting spreader loads in the right barrel. Try patterning it with spreaders you may be surprised.

[Phillip Carr]

With just under a 1/4 million Parker’s produced they are not all collectors. Some should be enjoyed and shot and set up the way you would really enjoy.
I’m only an occasional clay bird shooter so I like to shoot guns that work for my game which is wild birds.
I wouldn’t think of modifying chokes on high grade and high condition gun but why not carry a gun you love to shoot and that is choked the way you would have ordered it had you been born in a time that would have been given you that option?
No need to find another gun if you own a shooter grade Parker, and wish it was choked differently.
Just make sure you send it to a professional such as Dean Harris and some others... not just a hack.
A few hundred dollars invested that might bring a smile to your face the next time that covey rises.
Just my 2 cents and I’m sure don’t expect all will agree, but some things are done for just plain old self satisfaction.
To heck with what the next guy wants. Live for the day.
Most of my guns will be sold 50 cents on the dollar or less when the time comes and I’m chasing birds over my long passed dogs. It won’t matter how my favorite guns are choked.:)

[William Davis]

When the gun was built Chokes came first, then regulation two most important steps. Ribs laid and outside of the barrels filed and finished. All hand work . 100 years later try to alter the chokes nothing concentric to set up tooling. Run a reamer in the barrels it may center or may not. It has to index on something to run true. Look at a lot of Parker’s in a large setting like the Southern you will see many open jobs that have gone wrong. Muzzles not concentric and who knows what it’s done to point of impact No doubt it has been done successfully but many botched jobs.

Modern shotgun machine made the barrels are round and straight, opening chokes reasonable thing to do. Vintage hand regulated gun it’s a mistake.

William

[Harry Collins]

As I have gotten older I have come to appreciate tighter chokes. At one time it was said that improved cylinder could do anything on a sporting clay course and I relieved the left barrel of a GH to .010 constriction. I regret it. Today my go to sporting clay's gun has .015 and .025 constriction. For wobble trap my VH has .030 and .042 constriction. A favorite quail gun is a #1 frame 12 gauge GH with .005 and .027 constriction shooting 7/8 oz of #8 shot. My point is to have different choked Parkers for different sports. Wouldn't a Parker with .040 and .044 constriction make a great turkey gun. However, if I were to re-choke a gun these would be the folks to do it: https://www.simmonsguns.biz

[Gerald McPherson]

Thanks Mr Davis; Those are my thoughts also but how did Parker Bros do it when guns were returned?

[Phillip Carr]

I respectfully question the order of the barrel build. This is due mainly in part to my current project of fitting a set of 410 and 28 gauge model 21 barrels. Both sets of barrels were over sized externally and chambers were under size as well as the bore. No choke. Barrels were fit, struck and then sent to have chambers cut for proper fit and length. Bores opened to Winchester specs, and then choked.
Parker May have done things differently and I hope others can share there knowledge on the build process by Parker.
Chokes can be perfectly recut with the right person using the proper equipment set up off the bore.

[Kevin McCormack]

Thanks Mr Davis; Those are my thoughts also but how did Parker Bros do it when guns were returned?

They did it the same way other contemporary gunmakers of the time did it: return to the barrel shop, chock the barrels into whatever jig was used to align, center, bore and lap the individual choke cones and run of constriction to achieve pattern density, alignment, concentricity and distribution according to the customer's desired specifications. The Order Books are full of citations for guns returned with the notations, "open chokes", "make shoot straight", "pattern RB X%, LB Y%", "make shoot 6" high at 35 yards", and so forth an so on. No mystery or alchemy here (unlike things like case coloring and nitre bluing formulas); this was all mechanics and careful attention to detail.

[Rich Anderson]

I have also come to appreciate tight chokes and original guns. I once owned a nice straight grip DHE 12 with 32 inch barrels. The right barrel would smash a clay target but I wasn't getting the smoke I expected. Turns out someone opened the right barrel to IC. I sold the gun.

I have two very nice 16's a Lefever and a Purdey that are choked IC/F. I have used spreader loads in the left barrels of both guns while grouse hunting and suffered no ill effects.

It matters not to me if its a shooter VHE or a higher condition graded gun if the chokes are original to the gun then leave them the way there done by the experts at Parker.

[William Davis]

I would have to guess how Parker opened a choke on finished guns. Agree with Kevin probably hand hone while checking pattern and point of impact as the opening progressed. Doubt if any gunsmith today is doing it that way.

If using a machine or hand turned reamer after the gun is finished problem is how the barrels were regulated. Regulation is bending with wedges wired in place with ribs laid to maintain regulation. How much was it bent were do you index the reamer ? The bore may be straight may not be. Don’t know about 21s guessing again they may have been set up like a Rifle or modern O/U shotgun regulation and bore interior dimensions set by precision not hand regulation.

Willam

[Dean Romig]

Parker Brothers barrel making, chamber and forcing cone cutting, boring and choke cutting are all discussed in depth by Bill Furnish, Richard Hoover, Austin Hogan and others in early issues of Parker Pages.

The "Parker Pages Digital Archive" is indispensable in researching such topics. I have spent a couple of hours this afternoon re-reading a few of the articles by these authors who were consummate researchers on the subject of shotgun boring.

A short reading list in the Digital Archive would be ...

"History of Shotgun Chokes" by Richard Hoover and Bill Furnish, Parker Pages Vol. 3, Issue 4 July/Aug 1996

"Steel Archaeology" Parker Pages Vol. 3, Issue 5 July/Aug. 1996



Incidentally, the word "honing" gives me the chills.... "Cutting" and "polishing" are more appropriate terms for the boring and choke cutting processes Parker Brothers used.





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"Parker Bores and Chambers" by Austin Hogan Parker Pages Vol. 18, Issue 4 Pg 30.

[Bill Murphy]

Anyone who has spent time on the doublegunshop.com website or any other shotgun website has come to the conclusion that barrel butchers are barrel butchers and opening or modifying chokes is a crapshoot and you are better off doing it yourself or not doing it at all. The best solution to opening chokes is to load spreaders or buy them. I am in my sixtieth year of buying double guns, shooting skeet, both Olympic and NSSA, trap, pigeons, sporting clays and wild birds, and, somehow, I have avoided ever modifying a choke, or even a chamber. Just my take on it.

[Gerald McPherson]

Thanks everyone for your input and the chokes will be left as is. All I plan to do with gun is dove hunt and I already have two Parkers that are great for doves. I may just try to sell this one. When we measured the chokes I was surprised they were so tight. A drop in gauge showed they were both about imp/mod. Also I plan on doing some pattern tests that may tell a different story. I have a mod/full that shoots like a imp/mod so we will see. Thanks again. Gerald

[Bill Murphy]

A choke change on two barrels, shipping, and insurance would buy you a nice shooter grade double gun.

[Phillip Carr]

Shipped a set of barrels for double German gun this week for a friend.
Less than $20 each way for priority mail and $150 for the barrel rechoke.
Some joker tried to choke them himself I guess. Anyway less than $200 total. I have a gun indurance polcy so I do not buy extra insurance.

[Craig Budgeon]

For those of you that still want to alter your chokes on your shotguns, I found this video on google by typing in MidwayUSA shotgun choke reaming. The video is less than 2 minutes and shows an acceptable method to alter chokes. If someone wants to alter your chokes with an expansion reamer from the muzzle end, remember that, that method is only slightly better than using a hacksaw to alter your chokes.

[John Campbell]

You can also try do-it-yourself dentistry, novice shark photography, or an attempt at the land speed record in your Escalade.

But leave the choke alterations to a professional. Please...

[todd allen]

I've said this before, but I believe open chokes help a poor shooter, and hurt a good shooter. And conversely, tight chokes help a good shooter and hurt a poor shooter.

[Craig Budgeon]

John Campbell thank you for your post in reference to mine. You only have made a couple of mistakes in comprehending mine. At no time did I suggest that the reader should attempt choke enlargement on there own. Since the original poster asked for a person to duplicate Parker chokes and I know of no one nor did the rest of the contributors I thought the tape would show what is available. MidwayUSA may not be professional enough for you but they are for me and I suspect others that read this forum. My remarks about not reaming from the muzzle comes from my experience of seeing a 20 Ga. Specialty grade L.C. have its chokes destroyed as they were bellmouthed and off center of the bores which produced uneven and larger patterns than desired. John I await your next post. Perhaps it will have some substance.

[Garry L Gordon]

Boy, if you don't have a dog in the hunt, these discussions are worth the price of admission! Learning with facts is one thing, with strong held opinions, quite another. I really appreciate the passion on issues like this.

Thanks!

[William Davis]

The Midway video is a perfect example how to ruin a good shotgun. Anybody that has experence with a lathe, drilling, boring and reaming will tell your chance of concentric job is slim that way.

Willam

[Craig Budgeon]

If you use a sharp high quality reamer and remove no more than .005" from the diameter it will be concentric with the bore. Want proof, drill a hole in 1/2 flat stock, measure its exact location using a shaper gage and height gage/surface gage, now ream the hole.005' on the diameter, measure its location. Did the center of the move? Answer, no!

[Bill Holcombe]

I have never seen the need to alter chokes on a parker. If you need a more open pattern just use spreaders. Problem solved with no long lasting changes. I hunt doves, ducks, clay pigeons, and the occasional covey of quail and all of my parkers are either F and F or F and M. If I need them, spreader loads open em up plenty.

[John Campbell]

Alternatively, I must offer the insightful guidance of world-renowned double gunsmith Larry Potterfield of Midway USA. He takes these classic Parker barrels and reams them. Like nobody's business:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yrnJIyjtU

[Gerald McPherson]

Yes John that will make it bigger. My interest is making it right after the gun is built. Cutting a Parker barrel would would probably change the point of impact. Either way would mess up regulation. Right?

[Craig Budgeon]

Bill your post shared your experience and opinion which I agree with. Contrary to some of the contributors understanding, I never recommended anyone should enlarge the chokes on any gun, but understanding that some humans want to refine the performance of their guns, I shared the information I had. Bill, thanks for your contribution.

[todd allen]

Boy, if you don't have a dog in the hunt, these discussions are worth the price of admission! Learning with facts is one thing, with strong held opinions, quite another. I really appreciate the passion on issues like this.

Thanks!

Next up: Best shot size for pheasants ; - )

[allen newell]

7.5 in the first barrel and 5 shot in the 2nd barrel. Just my 2 cents

[todd allen]

Ounce of 5s @ 1100 fps, btw.

[Daryl Corona]

In any gauge, high antimony 7 1/2's in both barrels with plenty of choke. Period.

[Paul Harm]

So many experts on the subject on opening a choke. What Larry did is fully acceptable method of doing it. Why is it thought it would change the point of impact ? Why would it change the regulation ? He's using two bushing to keep the reamer in the center of the bore. What more could you ask for ? How else could it be done ?

[todd allen]

I thought we were discussing shot size for pheasants.
My vote is for 5s in both barrels.

[Randy G Roberts]

I thought we were discussing shot size for pheasants.
My vote is for 5s in both barrels.

Me to :)

[Craig Budgeon]

To answer Paul Harm's question of different ways to open chokes there are several. Sunnen hone (many find the finish unacceptable), Brownells offers an adjustable reamer set up similar to Porterfields, high quality expansion reamers aided by ingenuity can produce good results, Clymer offered excellent choke reamers that fed from the breech and were driven from the muzzle ( they cost $175 each 25 years ago and you needed 3-4 per gage), for those with lathes or mills excellent results can be attained but set ups are time cosuming, and finally a barrel boring machine ( I don't know of any U.S. gunsmith with one). For those you who object to anyone opening the chokes on their Parkers, I noticed Dean had the chokes altered by a very well respected gunsmith on the 28 gage he is offering on this forum.

[Dean Romig]

I can't even imagine how these little guys would have looked if I had left the chokes at XF/XF.... Each of these woodcock were shot at less than 20 yards. Abe Chaber, the CT smith who did the work is certainly one of the very best. David Trevallion praises Abe's work about every time I talk with him about American gunsmiths. Abe is German-trained and Dave is London-trained (Purdey).

.

[Paul Harm]

Naw, someone switched the subject, which is ok by me. You could start a thread on shot size. #5s for me .

[Paul Harm]

I guess my question, or point was, unless you go through the time for setting up a lathe the bar with bushings is the way most gunsmiths would do it. It just seemed like many of us were critical of doing it that way. Larry was doing it right. There is still polishing work to do and he didn't show that.

[Bill Murphy]

Do we realize how many barrel sets Parker gunmakers trashed when the boring and choking didn't go right?? Do we have that option today? I stand by my description of barrel borers today.

[Dean Romig]

If I believe the internet, some day, I will own the last full choke Parkers in the country. Beware those barrel butchers. The ones with the highest reputations, since they get the most business, ruin the most guns.


I don't know what that tells us....

The guy with the thinnest tread on his tires did the most driving...?

The guy with the most empties in the rear cargo pocket of his shooting vest at the end of the day shot more shells?

The guy who never made a mistake probably never tried anything?





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[Daryl Corona]

When Tom Roster was writing a column for the American Shotgunner way back when, I wrote (yes pen and paper) asking his opinion on how to open a choke on a gun without removing metal. This was in the early eighties I was shooting a 26" VHE that was M/F. He said to simply cut the petals off a wad then use a fiber wad under the shot column to make up for the missing petals. It worked much better than spreader loads as there was still a good center density. Now a days I can't get enough choke. Funny how your perspective changes as you age.

[todd allen]

Naw, someone switched the subject, which is ok by me. You could start a thread on shot size. #5s for me .

It was an attempt at an analogy. You will solve the choke question right after you get a consensus on the best shot size for pheasants.
Both are legitimate discussions, btw.

[todd allen]

Oh, and humor. Let's strive to always keep a sense of it.

[Paul Harm]

Ok Bill, why don't you tell us of how many barrels have been butchered. That's like saying all guns should be banned because a couple of people misused them. No one should re-choke their gun because someone else did a bad job. Come on, I know you're smarter than that. What about the guys who sent their guns back into the Parker company and ask them to make them shoot straight and change the chokes. Are they also wrong. Or was it ok as long as Parker was the only one who did it ? There were many qualified gunsmiths back then who could also do it. Or maybe the gunsmiths of today just aren't qualified. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Russell E. Cleary]

I see that one faction in the altering-of-chokes debate argues that there is little harm in opening chokes if the gun falls short of being high-grade or high-condition, ergo, is not a “collectable”.

Well, all things considered, I guess I collect guns that aren’t “collectible”.

I will never own an A-Grade; and high-condition or benchmark examples will forever be out of my price-range. Qualitatively and quantitatively, any Parker buys I make won’t register perceptibly in the gun market.

However, even if the vintage gun under my consideration is used, patinated, worn, pinned, or had a pad put on, I still regard surviving mechanical originality to be of primary importance.

I understand that this topic is for some of our fraternity tiresome in it’s interminability; but it is after all central to all fields of collecting.

At least...for us....there will always be photos... [for mutual enjoyment, undisputed admiration and fellowship].

[Scot Cardillo]

A reamer will generally follow the hole that’s already there (i.e., path of least resistance). The key is to ensure the reamer’s inserted from the breech, and that the extension bar is supported by bushings, yet not rigid up-close to the cutting action so’s the reamer can float & follow the pre-existing hole (choke). Bear in mind however, that the geometry of the chokes lead-in taper (or ogee) will suffer material loss, unless of course, a proper reamer is ground for the task. A little careful polishing to blend the ogee/taper into the new choke would probably suffice though. Now, of course, if the chokes poi was off to begin with..the above technique is of litte use..that’s when it’s time for the lathe or the boring machine.

..an ounce of #5’s in each barrel seems to be good for pheasants in my guns.

To Dean’s comment in an earlier post - someone who’s never royally screwed something up, has never done a damn thing in any sort of shop whatsoever. Fact.

[todd allen]

I've never"opened" a choke on a classic gun, per se, but I have Briley'ed a couple.
Including a Model 21, and an old H&H Royal SLE. My buddy, and hunting partner is going to send a Parker to Briley's, to give him a little more versatility.
Personally, I have more feelings about modifying an original Parker, than either of the other two, but in retrospect I wish I had left the H&H alone. I'm a tight choke guy, and the Holland was just too open for what I do. (Mostly desert quail)
The fact is, you lay the money down, you own the gun. You can do with it as you please.