Damascus/Modern Shells

[Trey Miller]

Question for everyone...I prefer to shoot a 16 ga with 2 3/4 Fiocchi high brass 6 shot shells for grouse hunting. (Please don’t respond arguing about my load of choice. I find I wound and lose much less grouse when I use this load.). I digress. I currently have steel barrels on a 1 frame. I was considering purchasing a gun with Damascus barrels. My question is can you shoot these shells in Damascus barrels safely? I would not be targeting shoot with them. Would it matter if the chambers were altered to handle the 2 3/4 shells?

Thanks,
Trey

[CraigThompson]

I’ve got a 16 gauge GH of 1911 vintage that has Damascus barrels and I shoot the factory promotional Dove & Quail as well as Squirrel loads in it and some would say don’t . But as to a high brass shell if it’s the same shot load powder charge as what Remington calls their “Express” loads my own personal opinion would be no .

[Dean Romig]

Frame size can sometimes translate to wall thickness at the critical points in the breech end of the barrels. I wouldn’t attempt it on a 0-frame 16.





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[Brian Dudley]

You really should see if you can find out what pressures those shells are?

[Trey Miller]

I should have clarified. I currently have steel barrels on a 1 frame. I was considering purchasing a gun with Damascus barrels.

[Eric Eis]

Same answer what are the pressure of the shells you are shooting and wall thickness of the barrels.

[todd allen]

High brass is no indicator of the load, btw.

[Dennis E. Jones]

I believe that all common, but perhaps not specialty, factory loaded 16 gauge shotshells be they high or low brass operate in the 10,000 to 11,000 PSI range some even higher. Personally I avoid them in any of my older shotguns, Damascus or steel, more to avoid stress on the frame than any other reason. Although I've not experienced it I'v seen cracked frames on older guns from shooting modern high pressure shotshells.

Just my $0,02 for what it's worth.

[Rich Anderson]

The big factor isn't so much the barrels as the condition of the wood at the head of the stock. Your considering buying a gun that's 100 +/- years old. I have Damascus 16's with great wall thickness and wouldn't shoot those shells.

[Jay Gardner]

I guess the real question is why shoot them? There are readily available alternatives made for older guns, in a variety of shot sizes. There is just no need to risk damaging a firearms or injuring yourself or others.

[Dave Noreen]

No one can actually tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be safe in a given gun. We can only say what we do or know.

From just after WW-II until he quit hunting after the 1987/8 season my Father shot an 1896 vintage 12-gauge AE-Grade Remington Hammerless Double. He didn't hesitate to use Western Super-X, Remington Express, Federal Hi-Power, etc. He also had a 16-gauge AE-Grade of about 1907 vintage which he didn't use nearly as much and which was stolen out of his house in the 1970s. Serial number P136036 in case anyone sees it! My Grandfather couldn't get the hang of that new fangled Winchester pump he'd gotten and in 1901 traded it off at Kennedy Bros. for an 1890 vintage heavy PH-Grade Parker Bros. 12-gauge. My Father along with his five brothers grew up shooting that Parker. They all believed those Damascus barrel warnings on ammunition boxes were a desperate attempt by the makers to sell some new guns in those tough Great Depression years.

From the mid-1930s my Father had a 12-gauge KED-Grade Remington Hammerless Double, which he gave to his youngest brother when he returned from his stint with Patton's 3rd Army in WW-II. Dad had his AE-Grade out here in Washington and had the KED-Grade to use when he went to Minnesota to hunt with his Father and brothers. My Father with the KED-Grade and Grandfather with his Parker Bros. in the fall of 1948 --

70046

The AE-Grade is still fine and resides in my gun room. Grandpa's Parker continued in use for another thirty years after his death with my Uncle Howard to about 1984. It has passed through his family, none who hunt or shoot. The KED-Grade was damaged by some of my Cousins using it in the early days of steel shot. Bulged the chokes and broke the ribs loose.

Just some history to show what a lot of these old doubles have been through. I'm sure my family's guns are not unique.

I seldom shoot any of my Damascus, Laminated or Twist barrel guns, but when I do I use my light 7/8 ounce reloads.

[charlie cleveland]

researcher i m like your dad about the shells i shoot most of my guns are damascus orother such steel...my dad had a lefver e grade 10 ga that had damascus barrels he used many boxes of those 4 3/4 dram of powder and 1 5/8 ounce of lead shot in that old ten it brought home a many ova duck or a turkey....my old 8 ga parkers have shot some heavy loads...not telling anybody to use heavy loads but that is what i prefer most of the time....thats a great picture of your dad and grandpa....charlie

[Bruce Day]

I’ve used a variety of loads in my 16 ga guns, which range from AHE Damascus, CHE Bernard, and various fluid steel, but prefer Federals and RSTs.

Here are tables showing what Parker recommended , just use the modern smokeless powder equivalent.

Using the recoil formula, which pictured 16 ga load produces less recoil?

[ED J, MORGAN]

I agree with Bruce.

[Dean Romig]

I don’t see that Bruce made a statement we can agree with or disagree with.

He asks a question and I don’t see enough data to draw any kind of conclusion.

What is the powder charge ot the RST box he pictures?





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[Eric Eis]

Even if the barrels can take the higher pressures (Damascus fluid, twist etc), why are you subjecting a 80 to 120 year old gun to that kind of stress. Wood dries out, gets oil soaked and running high pressure loads though these guns doesn't make sense to me. I prefer to go easy on my guns as I am only the caretaker of them. Others prefer to beat them up, to each their own.

[Daniel Carter]

Bruce's question has been asked numerous times on a reloading forum i belong to and the simple answer is Newton's law. The amount of ejecta is the governing factor. Equal and opposite reaction. 1 oz pushed out at 1200 fps will always create the same recoil. But it can have the perception of it changed by the powder used and the charge. Hope this makes sense, when I read it written by some one else it did.

[Dean Romig]

The "amount of ejecta being the governing factor" I guess we have to assume the powder charges are equal and the 2 1/2" wad/shot cup and the 2 3/4" wad/shotcup are also equal in weight.





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[Bruce Day]

The significant governing factors for recoil are the weight of the shot and its speed out the barrel. With that in mind , you will see that the Federals produce less recoil than the RSTs . And that there are close shells in Remington. Winchester and other makers. These are modern cartridges available off mail order or in stores.

Equivalent loading exists in 12 and 20 ga. I don’t know about 28 ga only because I have not looked.

A person can always buy RST cartridges, and I do, but it’s not your only choice.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Bruce for the explanation.

So, even though we have trusted RST Classic Shotshells to provide safe dependable ammo for our 100 year old guns, there are other brands we can feel comfortable in using.





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[Daniel Carter]

I wonder if in a blind test any of us could differentiate a 35 fps difference?

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if in a blind test any of us could differentiate a 35 fps difference?

I wonder if our guns could....:cool:





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[Harry Collins]

I, for the most part, shoot 1/8 oz light for gauge at 1150 fps +-.
10 gauge 1 1/8 oz
12 gauge 1 oz
16 gauge 7/8 oz
20 gauge 3/4 oz
It's easy on the gun and me. There are exceptions when I'm hunting waterfowl and only expect to shoot a few times.

[Dean Romig]

A Good practice Harry, and I'll bet the birds can't tell the difference.





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[Daniel Carter]

Harry I am with you, I have reloaded all my target, hunting shells since the 60's, including steel and bismuth. I have found that the light loads are more effective for me. 1 oz in a 10 is a great crow load, 7/8 in a 12 will do any target game except 27 yard trap. Only problem is nobody believes me !!

[Harry Collins]

Dean, you can't tell the difference in they way they kill birds or break clays. These dove were shot with 3/4 oz loads and I barely went over a box of shells for fifteen birds. I sometimes go 1/4 oz light for load with great results.

[Larry Dever]

I have shot damascus barrels of all kinds ,with a variety of ammo for over 30 years, and I have not had any issues ,other than Dead Game . The Double Gun Journal ,writer ,Sherman Bell conducted research on damascas and nitro steel barrels ,comparing the two types, upping the pressure, until they blew up. I am not recommending to anyone how or what to shoot ,Also the English have, continued using damascus barrels ,for over 130 years. By the way my preference
is for 2 1/2 inch shells ,1oz of shot in damascus or nitro steel.The game is just as dead as being shot with a magnum shell !


Thanks Larry

[Ken Hill]

I may have missed something reading through this thread. With any older gun, I would be more concerned with pressure. Pressure and recoil have two different effects on the gun. Pressure is generated from the shell loading and if the barrels are thin, then problems happen. Pressure is based on the powder type and grains; and shot charge. As Bruce mentioned, recoil is based on shot charge and velocity. Felt recoil can also vary based on the gun weight and fit.

As others mentioned, have the barrels checked for minimal wall thickness. Additionally, find out the pressure being produced by the shell.

Ken

[Bruce Day]

If a person uses reasonable shot and powder charges appropriate to the gauge, chamber pressure will be below or way below maximum service load pressure. Proof and service chamber pressures for Parkers are listed in TPS.

This would not include these ultra magnum loads which take advantage of the increase in proof pressure by SAAMI in the 1960s. No prairie storm black cloud artillery shells. And for 16’s , be wary of more than 1 oz at 2 3/4 Dre.

[Garry L Gordon]

I may have missed something reading through this thread. With any older gun, I would be more concerned with pressure. Pressure and recoil have two different effects on the gun. Pressure is generated from the shell loading and if the barrels are thin, then problems happen. Pressure is based on the powder type and grains; and shot charge. As Bruce mentioned, recoil is based on shot charge and velocity. Felt recoil can also vary based on the gun weight and fit.

As others mentioned, have the barrels checked for minimal wall thickness. Additionally, find out the pressure being produced by the shell.

Ken

I am absolutely not an expert, but I agree with Ken, and although I know that recoil is [I]related[I] to velocity of load and that load's mass, recoil and pressure are not one and the same. You can get standard loads for a 16 gauge (or any other gauge for that matter) to produce a variety of pressures and speeds by changing the components. You can make some adjustments to the [U]felt[U] recoil (not the same as recoil) by adding or subtracting gun weight, reconfiguring the degree of drop in the stock, etc.

I still can't see why we need to shoot high pressure and/or high speed loads in these guns we cherish so much.

[Harry Collins]

When Sherman Bell blew up my VH and it withstood the same pressure as Oscar Gaddy's GH I felt more confident in shooting regular store bought shells through my fluid steel guns.

[Ken Hill]

Harry,

Thanks for donating your gun to those tests. They are a real eye opener on what the guns can handle. I'm just a little more cautious on using a high pressure load on older guns. Other people have differing opinions. Sherman Bell's test provide me with peace of mind to say the least.

Out of curiosity, were you able to see any of the testing?

Ken

[John Dallas]

I had a lot of statistics in grad school, but I don't think a sample size of one is conclusive. I have, however put a lot of stout 1 1/4 oz loads thru my Fox Sterly

[Harry Collins]

Ken,

No I did not witness any of the destructive test. I live in Kentucky and was visiting my daughter in Chicago. I took the VH to Dennis Potter in Wisconsin and he passed it along to Sherman Bell. When I got the gun back the stock was broken and the barrels a mess. There was a note from Bell that read something like, "If you you want scrambled you have to break eggs." I donated the barrels to PGCA. My cousin gave me a set of Damascus 2 frame barrels and Brad Bachelder recolored and fitted them to the frame. Donnie Gemes at Show Me Gunstocks in Missouri made a straight stock for it with checkered butt. It is great at wobble trap as well as dove hunting. I took two doubles and had my limit of fifteen dove in an hour my last hunt of the 2018 season.

Harry

[Richard Flanders]

Glad to hear/see that your abused experimental VH got back in the game, and with damascus bbls no less! It doesn't get any better than that. There's a VH12 in my family that could use the same treatment.

[Mills Morrison]

There seems to be a perception that lighter loads are not as effective as heavy loads. I have found almost the opposite to be true.

[CraigThompson]

There seems to be a perception that lighter loads are not as effective as heavy loads. I have found almost the opposite to be true.

One things for darn sure . If the shooters in the least afraid of heavy loads it's going to be somewhat more difficult for the person to hit anything with them .

[Ken Hill]

Harry,

Thanks for the background and pics of the updated gun. Glad it is still in use.

Ken

[William Davis]

Agree with Mills, my opinion, shot size and density kills birds and breaks targets. Pushing velocity over 1200 feet has little effect on target at distance.

If the birds hard to kill use larger shot, tighter chokes give density needed for clay targets. No need at all for hot loads in vintage SXS Guns.

William

[Tom Flanigan]

It’s been my observation that that those with much experience tend to gravitate to what I consider sensible loads for hunting……1200 fps for all bores with 12 bore 1 ¼ (waterfowl and turkey) and 1 1/8, 16 bore 1oz, 20 bore 7/8 oz and 28 bore ¾ oz. These are the loads I use for all my hunting. Although since I only use the 12 bores for waterfowl, I don’t load 1 1/8 12 bore shells. Not that the 1 1/8 12 bore load isn’t a good waterfowl load. It is and will kill all the fowl a man is allowed in short order at reasonable ranges. But I am married to the 1200 fps 1 ¼ oz. load since I have effectively used it for over 40 years, my guns shoot it so well and I have taken a ton of game with it. In my opinion, it is the single best hunting load for 12 bore vintage guns where shots to 45 or 50 yards are expected.

[Leighton Stallones]

I HAVE A NICE OLD STEPHEN GRANT 16 ga DAMASCUS CIRCA 1875 AND I SHOOT ONLY RSTs or my own low pressure handloads. from what I have read 16 ga pressures in "FACTORY" ammo run 9-10M psi.
and I worry about the buttstock abuse as much as the barrels.

[Rich Anderson]

I shoot all 2 1/2 inch low pressure and nothing over 1150 FPS in everything. In these older guns we all cherish I'm much more concerned with the stock as I know the barrels are safe.

In the last few years I've gone to 3/4 oz in the 20 and some in 16 but mostly 7/8 oz in both 16 and 12. Clay targets break and birds fall from the sky. It's also easier to acquire the second target or get a second shot at a bird with the lighter loads.

[William Davis]

Thing about most factory 16 G shells, to sell they have to function A 5 Autoloaders. Those moving parts need recoil to work. Even more recoil if they are dirty.

William

[Mills Morrison]

I know what you mean about Auto 5s.

[Harry Collins]

I lived in England in the mid 70's. If memory serves me correctly, Eley standard velocity shotgun shells were 1050 fps and their high velocity loads were 1175 fps.

[todd allen]

I have a circa 1950s M 21, which is virtually indestructible. I shoot light 1 oz. loads in it. Why? Because my shoulder is attached to it while shooting. Same with my 32" VHE 12 gauge, go to gun.
What a lot of people don't realize is that at 40 yards, the load that starts at 1100 fps, is traveling at a very similar speed as the load that started at 1500 fps. The slower load likely patterns better, and recovery time to the second shot will be much faster.
Less wear and tear on the equipment is an added bonus.

[Joe Graziano]

I have a 1925 16 gauge hammer gun with fluid steel barrels with 2 1/2 in chambers. I fired one box of modern #6 hunting loads. Recoil was harsh and gun miserable to shoot. I switched to 2 1/2 in RST shells and love it. It’s my go to gun for upland birds. Lesson learned, buy the shells the gun was built to shoot.