My 1901 16 gauge Parker

[D. Shane Burton]

Hey guys, I just wanted to post some info and pics of my two Parkers, so I can get some feedback about them and also figure out possible value. Anyone have an idea on condition?

Parker Brothers 16 gauge, frame size 0, weight = 3 with a 2 superscript, and Kf mark. Both barrel chambers measure 0.750in. The depth to the powder ring in the chambers is 2 1/2in. The choke on the right barrel is 0.650 horizontal and 0.657 vertical (not perfectly round). The choke on the left barrel is 0.655 horizontal, 0.655 vertical. Chokes are ??? Barrel lengths are 24in.

It has the plain buttplate with horizontal lines over most of it. It does NOT have a shield on the lower stock. Its serial number is 105322, dating it 1901. It also has what looks like a 105? on the base of the trigger guard.

I'll let the following pictures speak for themselves. On the pictures with both guns, it's the lower gun:

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[D. Shane Burton]

According to this page: http://www.parkerguns.org/pages/faq/ChokeSize.htm it would seem I have improved cylinder choke diameters on both barrels, though I have a feeling the barrels may have been cut down. How can this be? My 12 gauge, in another thread, had measurements that it is Cylinder and it was originally listed as being 30in, but the barrels are now 24 5/8in, so I know they're cut-down.

Any opinions?

Shane

[Dean Romig]

Well Shane, from your pictures it looks like both guns have been "rode hard" to the point of having been abused. The sixteen certainly looks to be in better condition than the twelve. In fact, I wouldn't even attempt to shoot the twelve at all. The barrels are in poor shape and the ribs are obviously seperating.
The stock on the sixteen presents a couple of questions - one being the Trojan buttplate... another being the lack of a shield in the stock where a grade 1 would have had one.... third being the capped pistol grip if it is a Trojan stock but it doesn't have Trojan checkering.... and finally, if it is a replacement stock, to my mind it is a Parker Bros. stock... very interesting. The serial number 105322 is not in the book so we don't know the original barrel length but it appears to have cut barrels too. Probably down from 26" judging by your choke measurements.

[D. Shane Burton]

I don't have the guns with me as I write this, but do you think the 12 and 16 buttplates could be switched? The guns have been together forever.

About the barrel length--I wonder why someone would only cut two inches off? I'm assuming the sighting bead would have to be removed and the mid-rib drilled and tapped to relocate it? I've seen other pictures of guns that look about the same in albums on here, but they never mention that the barrels have been cut down. I would think these should be cylinder bore if they're cut down, but the one that is perfectly round matches the chart for Improved Cylinder--how is this possible? Sorry, I'm new at this.

Thanks for the feedback. It's greatly appreciated.

Shane

[Bruce Day]

There is a whole section on cut barrels in the Parker FAQ section on the home page.

Every barrel that I have seen with out of round muzzle ends patterned poorly.

When a person buys an old double shotgun, they are essentially buying barrels.

[Dean Romig]

Far and away the most common reason for cutting barrels was, for the uninformed of the day, a quick and cheap way of "opening" the chokes. Parker chokes were cut about 4" long - some even as much as 6" so by cutting 2" off the barrels the choke would have lost about 1/2 of its taper.

[D. Shane Burton]

So, basically I got taken for a ride and both the guns are junk now? :cuss:

Thanks for the choke explanation.

Shane

[Dean Romig]

We all sincerely hope you didn't pay a lot.

[D. Shane Burton]

I wish someone could just give me a ballpark value on these in $.

[Bruce Day]

There are plenty of good 12ga V grade Parkers available for $2000 to $3000, 16ga V's for $2500 to $4000, with unbutchered barrels and stocks and working actions, that may need at most a little gentle cosmetic care. The danger for the novice is picking up a cheap gun from a pile at a cheap gun show and thinking that he has gotten some sort of prize....kind of like buying a high mileage used/abused car that is all clapped out.

The careful potential Parker owner joins the PGCA, buys The Parker Story, makes the acquaintance of a person knowledgeable in Parkers and looks at many at available guns before purchasing.Just like if a person was thinking about getting into old Corvettes or other car that can be a money pit and a trap for the unwary.

[D. Shane Burton]

I bought these from someone advertising for a friend on a gun forum. The guns had been in the family for years and were the wife's grandfather's guns. They didn't know a whole lot about them and, I guess, neither did I. I just knew that Parkers were the good, old dbl barrels that were hard to find and I didn't want to miss the opportunity to buy them at what I thought was a decent price. I didn't know or realize that morons in the past would cut barrels short. I'd never do that to even a modern gun I own. So that was a surprise to me. I worked the action on the 16 and it seemed to work fine. I was looking over these and two other guns they had and I guess I thought I cracked open the 12 but didn't--my bad. I found out later at home that it wouldn't cock.

I've had other times when someone posted a gun that I wanted on the forum and I lost it because someone else spoke up quicker than I did. I guess the reputation of the old Parkers made me jump before researching them. I had no idea about cut barrels, etc... I thought they looked in fair condition because of the fact they appeared to have some of the original blue and case color, whereas many guns have lost so much of it that they're just silver. I thought this look spoke of originality and not a re-finished gun, which would be a good thing.

It appears I was wrong. I guess hindsight is 20/20.

Shane

[Dean Romig]

Very well thought out and stated Bruce. :clap:

[D. Shane Burton]

I'm glad you guys are so happy about my screwup and the opportunity to rub it in my face in such a well said manner.

Shane

[Bruce Day]

Lots of no excuses Parkers are available from reputable dealers and from reputable PGCA members. Like anything else, do your homework first or take a friend with you who knows his guns. Above all, the PGCA is networking and helps participants from avoiding being taken or misled by unscupulous gun sellers. Now I don't know how much was paid for these particular guns but you get what you pay for from most gun sellers and bargains in guns, cars, land or houses often aren't.

Mr Burton, no one is happy about your guns or your situation and no one is rubbing anything in your face, nor do I know of any reasonable basis why a person would think that. We at the PGCA have tried very hard over the last 15 years to make collecting information available to everybody, regardless of membership, so that they, if they choose, can become knowledgeable in Parker shotguns. We have this forum and public exhibitions at major gunshows and are pleased to assist and answer questions to those who want to ask.

[Dean Romig]

Shane, you're misreading our meaning here. Nobody except the guy who sold you those guns is taking any pleasure at all in this. We're attempting to help you but will not give you a value on the guns at the risk that we or one of us will be named in the possible lawsuit you bring against the seller. I, for one, will say no more on the subject.

[D. Shane Burton]

To Bruce Day,

You're right, I should have, but I explained what I did and why above. I rarely see these for sale around where I live, until I saw these and didn't want to miss out on them.

I still have no idea what they're worth, even as parts guns or wallhangers. I wish someone could help with this. I can't undo what I've done, I'm just trying to figure out how to recover from it.

Shane

[D. Shane Burton]

Shane, you're misreading our meaning here. Nobody except the guy who sold you those guns is taking any pleasure at all in this. We're attempting to help you but will not give you a value on the guns at the risk that we or one of us will be named in the possible lawsuit you bring against the seller. I, for one, will say no more on the subject.

You posted this as I was typing the above. I have no desire for a lawsuit over something like this, I'm just trying to see how much they're really worth to know if I took a loss or not. Are these still worth $1000 as parts or as a wallhanger, or are they worth only $10 in scrap metal. If someone could post a "no responsibility guess" so I could have an idea while they protected themselves, I'd appreciate it.

Shane

[Bruce Day]

Steve Barnett over in Mississippi is a reputable dealer with a lot of fine Parkers. Terry Allen in Nashville is fine also. McCabe and Willoughby in Dallas, also. The PGCA will hold its next annual meeting and exhibition in Louisville KY in Sept 2011.

As for value, severely cut barrels have little value to Parker collectors. The stocks look beat up. The action frames, when they are hanging up, could be internally rusted or just full of dried grease and crud. If parted out, I don't know, maybe a bit more than $500 from both. Bill Murphy has dealt in parting out guns. Bill?

[D. Shane Burton]

Steve Barnett over in Mississippi is a reputable dealer with a lot of fine Parkers. Terry Allen in Nashville is fine also. McCabe and Willoughby in Dallas, also. The PGCA will hold its next annual meeting and exhibition in Louisville KY in Sept 2011.

Steve Barnett in Mississippi is fairly close. Maybe I can track him down. He may want them for parts or be able to give me a face-to-face evaluation. Maybe I could work something out in trade and $ and get a good Parker, who knows?

Thanks for the ballpark value in parts, Bruce. That's not as bad as I imagined. The 16's action works fine, though the 12 has problems. I don't think these guns have been cleaned in a 100 years.

Thanks for the info, Bruce.
Shane

[Bruce Day]

www.stevebarnettfineguns.com

West Point, MS

Be prepared to see some fine Parkers.

[D. Shane Burton]

Thanks again, Bruce, for the detailed info..

Sorry about my reaction earlier; I'm fairly upset at myself, as you can imagine.

Shane

[Bruce Day]

Shane, it happens, you're not the first or the last. Please join the PGCA and come to Louisville if you can.

I recall a few years ago when a member who is now a significant collector wanted to get into Parkers. He is a big guy and wanted the big bores, so he came to the PArker meeting at the Southern Side by Side in N.C. and picked everyone's brain. He bought a first rate big Parker there and has acquired more, all no excuses guns, all stemming from his first buy and so far as I know, he has paid fair price for all and they have risen in value. I had one Parker when I started, joined the PGCA and picked a lot of people's brains, now I have a few more.

Regards,

Bruce Day

[D. Shane Burton]

First off, thanks, Bruce.

Now back to something Dean posted:

Well Shane, from your pictures it looks like both guns have been "rode hard" to the point of having been abused. The sixteen certainly looks to be in better condition than the twelve. In fact, I wouldn't even attempt to shoot the twelve at all. The barrels are in poor shape and the ribs are obviously seperating.
The stock on the sixteen presents a couple of questions - one being the Trojan buttplate... another being the lack of a shield in the stock where a grade 1 would have had one.... third being the capped pistol grip if it is a Trojan stock but it doesn't have Trojan checkering.... and finally, if it is a replacement stock, to my mind it is a Parker Bros. stock... very interesting. The serial number 105322 is not in the book so we don't know the original barrel length but it appears to have cut barrels too. Probably down from 26" judging by your choke measurements.

Dean concerning the stock issues, since I'm not familiar with them, did any of the Trojan stocks issued have the capped pistol grip and lack of shield? I'm thinking the original stock may have been completely replaced with a Trojan stock at some point.

I know they'll never be great examples, but I'm hoping the 16 ga can be restored to be a shooter again.

Thanks for any insights,
Shane

[Bill Murphy]

Maybe if you tell us how much you paid, and maybe to whom, we could tell you if you got hurt, and if so, how badly.

[Dean Romig]

From what I can see of it I don't think it is a Trojan stock but probably the least expensive restock that Parker would do for a VH.... juat a WAG in any case.

Those loads would be OK but I tend to shoot even lighter loads in my sixteens than that and the ones I shoot are still very effective.

[D. Shane Burton]

Sorry above removing the load question, Dean. I read another thread afterward that was talking about the subject where you gave an answer, so I pulled the question, probably when you were writing your response. :D

Bill, I'll PM you the answer and see what you think.

Shane

[George Lander]

Shane: Why not take your Parkers to a good SxS gunsmith and get an estimate on what it would cost you to get them in shape for hunting? If all the pieces are there restoration might be your best option. Every acquisition is a learning experience.

Best Regards, George

[D. Shane Burton]

George,

Actually, that's what I've decided to do. I've already called a local gunsmith that has been in business a long time and is capable of fabricating parts. I mainly want him to go over the 16 gauge, but I will bring the 12 gauge and ask him if it's even worth evaluating. I'll probably bring them in Saturday morning.

I hope to get the 16 gauge shoot-worthy again.

What is everyone's opinion on me re-bluing and refinishing the guns, since they're already in poor condition? Yes? No? A no-no for resale or it doesn't matter due to condition?

Shane

[Dean Romig]

Some Hoppe's No. 9 and 0000 steel wool with patience will remove most of the hard accumulated crud and you may be surprised how nicely it will clean up. Probably re-blue the barrels if they're worn enough but the frame may look better just cleaned up.

[D. Shane Burton]

I'll try that, Dean. :)

Thanks,
Shane

[Robin Lewis]

The shim described here is a temporary fix which could put your gun in the field for years but there is a similar method that is a permanent fix.

You could have the gun repaired using a spray welding repair technique. This a system of depositing a thin layer of material onto the hinge and then filing it to fit properly. A competent gunsmith, using correct welding techniques, will easily repair this problem. It works in the same way as the shim; it lasts longer but costs more.

[D. Shane Burton]

I'll ask the gunsmith about this on Saturday. Thanks for mentioning it, Robin. :)

Shane