A Friend’s Gun Exploded Today w/ RST Shell

[Shawn Wayment]

This is my friend’s W. Richards which correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not the same as a Westly Richards. He was hunting bobwhites this am in TN and he fired the second barrel at a quail and the barrel burst. He was shooting RST shells and he says that he doesn’t believe the barrel was plugged. This was the first shot of that barrel today and he cleaned the gun last week. Luckily he wasn’t hurt just shook up. Any thoughts?

[Steve Huffman]

Does he remember if he checked the bores before loading ? Glad he is ok ! What shell was he shooting ?

[Shawn Wayment]

Does he remember if he checked the bores before loading ? Glad he is ok ! What shell was he shooting ?

He was shooting the 2.5 inch 20 gauge ultra lites

[Victor Wasylyna]

Your friend is a lucky guy/gal. Not sure how anything other than an obstruction could cause that to happen. I look forward to the replies.

-Victor

[Jay Oliver]

Those RST 2.5 Ultra Lites are 3/4 oz @ 1100fps. A very light load with almost zero recoil in my Parker 20s. Those are my favorite shells for shooting clays. That is a scary picture and I am glad your friend is okay.

[Alfred Greeson]

Could a 28 Ga. shell have been down in that barrel? That is quite the explosion

[Rick Losey]

looks like a classic obstruction blow out

was it the first shot of the day for that barrel?

glad he is ok,

[Dean Romig]

Most likely a stuck wad obstruction from the previous shot fired in that barrel. Very, very unfortunate.





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[Brian Dudley]

Or the muzzle got stuck in the dirt.

[Drew Hause]

Lots of questions to be answered
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

A ring bulge is confirmation of an obstruction, and almost always lifts the rib

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/333454755.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/345860568.jpg

Thin barrels usually just split

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/406729359.jpg

[Mills Morrison]

Best thing to do is send it to Dr Drew

[Dean Romig]

An over-charge would not cause that kind of burst that far from the chamber.





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[John Campbell]

I agree that it certainly appears like an obstruction failure. So... no telling what the obstruction was. A cleaning patch?

Ironically, the blow-out does give one a rather analytical look at the classic Deeley latch...

BTW... a W. Richards gun IS different than a Westley Richards. Completely separate shops, with William (W.) Richards originally based in Liverpool. And W. Richards supplied mostly mid-level guns.

[George Stanton]

A good reminder to check a guns barrels every time we load. And don't forget to check your rifle barrels too. I do, every time. All it takes is some loose bit of debris in a gun case that finds its way into your barrel.

[Phil Yearout]

Wow! Glad to hear he's unhurt, though looking at that I don't understand how he's not!

[Mark Ray]

It amazes me that he did not have a severe injury to his left hand....must have been wearing gloves at a minimum! Had a friend years ago have a similar explosion, finally figured out that his "old fashioned" oil mop that hooked on to the end of the rod to pull through the barrels had unhooked itself in the bore, and he got distracted between that and putting the gun up with the mop in the bore. He figured it out when he found the mop missing from his kit. My friend got some permanent black freckles in his left ear and cheek, and donated half a pinky finger.

[Kenneth V Jones]

About fifteen years ago I took my 20 ga. repro out of the safe to go hunting. I opened it to remove the snap caps and the ejectors shot them out on the floor. I could not find one of them for the life of me, so off I went. When out in the field as I loaded the gun, I always look down the barrels. At the end of the left barrel was the snap cap. It was the plastic type with a visible coiled spring you can see through the hull. The flanges were plastic and had sheared off allowing the hull to slide down and lodge in the choke.

[Dave Sizemore]

It doesn’t take a total obstruction to cause extreme pressures. This guy is fortunate!

[Randy G Roberts]

Yes, very lucky. There's an older trap shooter at our local club that I have watched for who knows how many years. He performs the same ritual every shot. Break gun open, remove spent shell, blow down barrel, hold gun up and look down barrel, reload. He does it on the sporting clays range as well. I have a new respect for him and his diligence now.

[edgarspencer]

looks like a classic obstruction blow out



Took the words right out of my mouth.

Being a southpaw, I'd be one hurtin' cookie right there.

[Drew Hause]

"An over-charge would not cause that kind of burst that far from the chamber."

I agree with Dean.
THIS would be a (very) over-charge blow out

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/413805715.jpg

[Shawn Wayment]

It amazes me that he did not have a severe injury to his left hand....must have been wearing gloves at a minimum! Had a friend years ago have a similar explosion, finally figured out that his "old fashioned" oil mop that hooked on to the end of the rod to pull through the barrels had unhooked itself in the bore, and he got distracted between that and putting the gun up with the mop in the bore. He figured it out when he found the mop missing from his kit. My friend got some permanent black freckles in his left ear and cheek, and donated half a pinky finger.

Also luckily he's left handed

[John Dallas]

A friend had a Caesar Guerini blow up in the same barrel location. He also is left handed, and escaped with no damage except a bruised ego. He is a dentist, so a mangled hand would have been a real problem In his case, it was operator error. Dropped a 20 gauge shell into the left barrel, must have gotten distracted, and stuffed a 12 gauge shell in on top.

[Craig Budgeon]

If the left most axial shaft located in the receiver is .125" dia. then the exploded cross section would appear to be between .040-.050". If that shaft is smaller the cross section would be closer to .040". Either way that's very thin that close to the breech, much to thin for my eyes!

[Mark Ray]

If the left most axial shaft located in the receiver is .125" dia. then the exploded cross section would appear to be between .040-.050". If that shaft is smaller the cross section would be closer to .040". Either way that's very thin that close to the breech, much to thin for my eyes!

How do,we know,those dimensions??.

[Drew Hause]

I don't understand Craig.
The OPs burst is at about 9" and .040" is generally recognized as adequate wall thickness for fluid steel at that point.
The Smith Ideal chamber burst occurred where MWT at the end of the 12g chamber is usually at least .110". I did not however have the opportunity to measure that specific gun.

Another overpressure chamber blow out courtesy of David Trevallion

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/284440656.jpg

Likely 20g in front of 12g blow out

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17546456/405843826.jpg

As said, bursts can occur with much less than total bore obstruction. A study by the Royal Military College of Science, sponsored by the Birmingham Proof House and the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, showed that an obstruction by 2 fibre wads (total weight of 4 grams) was sufficient to bulge or burst a 12 gauge barrel shooting a 28 gram (slightly less than 1 ounce) load. Peak pressure occurred 22mm (.866”) past the leading edge of the obstruction.

[todd allen]

Stuff happens in a hurry, inside a gun barrel!

[Craig Budgeon]

Mark, I have disassembled at least 30 English boxlocks in my lifetime and never has that shaft exceeded 1/8" dia. My vocation was a master instrument maker for the Eastman Kodak Co. fabricating precision sheet metal parts and machined parts. My hobbies include gunsmithing and participating in the Indianapolis 500 as assistant chief mechanic. My home provides space for a complete machine shop. I've been a machinist for fifty years

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew, since the barrel flats on an English boxlock never exceed 4" in length its difficult to see how you chose 9" as the beginning of the explosion when it is no farther away than 6" from the breech. Just because I could, I went into my shop, pisked up a pair of Verney Carron barrels measured the wall thickness and would you believe that the wall thickness measured .068" 6" from the breech. Finally Drew when it comes to my safety I prefer my evaluation over yours.

[Drew Hause]

My apologies for being obtuse, but where is the "axial shaft" located in the receiver?

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew apologies accepted. The shaft we are talking is the shaft closest to the forearm iron. In English boxlocks that shaft is used as the pivot point for the cocking levers and in some cases is also used to trip the ejectors. If the gun in question is actually marked W. Richards rather than Westley Richards its quality of manufacture and materials is questionable.

[Drew Hause]

Part 14? Courtesy of Boxall & Edmiston

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17126410/414095486.jpg

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew, the gun you have depicted is a higher quality sideplated boxlock with ejectors. Low cost English and continental guns tend to have the axial shaft in the center of the hinge pin because its cheaper and does not require a fixture to fabricate.

[Hal Sheets]

First off, was the gun in question, in proof?
And had the chambers been measured? In England, if the chambers had been opened to 2.75" the gun should have been re-proved and so stamped. I understand the English will not even accept a gun (with lengthened chambers) for re-proof, if the forcing cones have been altered. A look at the barrel flats and measuring the right chamber would give us more info.

[Dean Romig]

I believe the issues raised regarding questionable wall thickness, axial shaft location, action flat length, etc. are moot points considering the location of the rupture of the subject gun (original poster's picture) having most obviously been caused by an obstruction and therefor not the fault of the gun or the load.






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[edgarspencer]

Craig, Are you saying 'AXIAL SHAFT' or "AXLE SHAFT?

[Mark Ray]

Mark, I have disassembled at least 30 English boxlocks in my lifetime and never has that shaft exceeded 1/8" dia. My vocation was a master instrument maker for the Eastman Kodak Co. fabricating precision sheet metal parts and machined parts. My hobbies include gunsmithing and participating in the Indianapolis 500 as assistant chief mechanic. My home provides space for a complete machine shop. I've been a machinist for fifty years

Thank you for the explaination. So, if “eyeballing” is allowed, to my eye, all three of the barrel failures that Drew evidenced have wall thickness that “looks” thinner than the subject gun.

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar, axial since it doesn't turn. Dean we've disagreed before. Mark, your looking at different pictures and you haven't picked out a constant for comparison or have you? Mark, your body your choice, my body my choice.

[Drew Hause]

Craig: Tis' the season for good will. We're all friends here and just trying to understand.

You used a term "axial shaft located in the receiver" which I've never heard nor can I find anywhere. Double guns have an "action" and the barrels are not part of the "receiver". Are you saying that Shawn's friend's barrels burst starting at the shaft? Does the gun have a shaft? Do Parkers an axial shaft?

The wall thickness recommendations of Hugh Lomas and Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P) are here, and you are most free to disagree. Yes, wall thickness of .068" at 6" would be normal
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit
What are your recommendations based on 50 years as a machinist and having disassembled 30 British boxlocks?

We can all guess at the wall thickness at the burst, but possibly the Shawn could simply measure the proximal and distal walls to settle the issue?

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew, here it goes for the last time on this subject, look at the pictures of the explosions you provided. None of your explosions show a pattern and most of your explosions extend for an extended length of the bore. The W. Richards in question has the explosion begin about 6" from the breech is perpendicular to bore and follows the circumference of the barrel to the soldiered joint and ends with no further apparent collateral damage to the beyond the 2" exploded area. Axial shaft is my term, so far the Brits have not adopted it. Drew what recommendations do you want? Are you asking about a 410 ga. or an 8 ga. or something in between, Whitworth steel or wrought steel, RST loads or somebodies unknown handloads, your mint Parker or a used up Crescent Arms double. Wonder why opinions might differ?

[Mark Ray]

Dang...I must have accidentally logged onto Doublegunshop!

For the record...I never disagreed with anyone, but just merely wanted to understand how Mr. Budgeon inferred those measurements.

I suppose I should have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm out.

[Drew Hause]

OK. Parker Titanic steel and post-WWI Vulcan steel were AISI 1030 with a tensile strength of 75,000. Your MWT numbers for a 12g?

[edgarspencer]

Craig, I'm sure you know what you're saying, so I apologize if I'm a little dense. Axial, meaning parallel to an axis, still doesn't tell me which part you're referring to. In the end, it doesn't matter, as I assume you are just referring to 'a part' to scale the barrel wall thickness.
As someone, maybe Drew, said, wouldn't it be great if the original poster just measured the wall.
All that aside, I still believe the failure is due to an obstruction, and a 6500psi cartridge isn't going to burst that barrel by pressure alone.

[Ed Blake]

I know I would have the remaining RSTs in that opened box tested, at least to eliminate that variable.

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew, I don't make recommendations,too many attorneys but these are the minimums for me 2" .050, 2.5" .065, 2.75' ..070, and 3' magnum .080. Edgar, the axial shaft is the pivot point for the cocking levers and shares the same axis/center with the forearm iron.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, the axial shaft is the pivot point for the cocking levers and shares the same axis/center with the forearm iron.

OK, Now I know where you are, but I have never heard that pin referred to as an 'axial' shaft.

"Axial shaft is my term, so far the Brits have not adopted it." Yeah, well, You know, Those Brits are slow to come around to these new terms.

[Dean Romig]

The barrels, and forend of course, ROTATE around an axis, hence “axial” shaft or pin.






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[edgarspencer]

The barrels, and forend of course, ROTATE around an axis, hence “axial” shaft or pin.:vconfused:
So, All this time I thought the wheels on my car rotated around an AXLE Shaft.
And I guess that means my trailer is a two axial trailer. Damn, I learn so much from you, Dean:rotf:

btw, the definition of axial means sharing the same axis, and has nothing to do with rotation.

[Dean Romig]

Semantics Edgar, semantics....




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[Chuck Bishop]

It's going to be a long winter.

[Craig Budgeon]

Websters Dictionary defines axial as somrthing that forms an axis

[Frank Srebro]

Why am I thinking of the phrase "blowing smoke"? :banghead:

[Drew Hause]

Good will stops where dangerous..."smoke"...starts, and those numbers make no more sense that "axial shaft located in the receiver".
If they refer to the end of the chamber or just past the forcing cones, the 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" numbers are below the CIP recommended wall thickness for Category 1 “Standard Steel” (Non-alloy AISI 1045) with tensile strength = 101,526-123,137 psi. Are your numbers at 6"??
How many of the British boxlocks that you disassembled had wall thickness to match your numbers Craig?

[John Campbell]

Dang...I must have accidentally logged onto DGJ!... I'm out.

Errr, ah, you musta meant doublegunshop.com...

And your response to such a nightmare is a wise one.

[Drew Hause]

Nice collection of wall thickness numbers here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=379803&page=3

[Craig Budgeon]

Drew, the numbers that I express were measured 6" from the breech. I don't believe the conversation indicated any change, at least from my point of view.

[Eric Eis]

Guy's, let it go........Please

[John Campbell]

Capt. Picard will help:
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