12ga. 5/8 load

[Jay Oliver]

This probably falls under a "wildcat" load, but given what it is I felt safe trying it. It worked so well when I tried it today I thought I would share it(I'll say it just to be safe...use at your own risk):

5/8oz.(actual weight - .662oz of #9s) using the 5/8 charge bar for a Mec Jr.
BP/Gualandi Rex - 24 wad(didn't need any filler wad/card)
2 1/2 Cheddite hull
Cheddite Primer
14 grains of Red Dot


I was shooting the 12ga. #1 frame damascus gh in the picture that is choked IM/IM. I worked my way around the clays course and kept hitting targets. There was only 1 target I couldn't hit and I didn't hit with 1oz. of shot out of a 16 gauge either.

I normally don't use #9s, but with a 5/8 load I though more pellets might be good. I made some longer shots I wouldn't have thought possible. I am going to load up a few hundred of these. I might try some in #8.5 shot.

If someone will tell me or point me to thread with instructions, I would gladly send these out for a pressure test and post the results.

This was pleasure to shoot and as you can imagine not much recoil at all.

[Craig Larter]

So why? The cost of lead shot? I don't understand the need to go below 3/4 oz.

[Jay Oliver]

I had bought those wads with 3/4 oz loads in mind with 15 grains of Red Dot. Over this past weekend I had shot my 410 Citori extremely well and thought about when you're on the target it doesn't really matter what you use.

I have seen a few ultra light 12 gauge loads(even 1/2 ounce) and thought why not try it. All I can say is they worked well and I'll be loading up some more...

[Daniel Carter]

Jay there is a lot of information on light loads on Gamaliel shotgun world reloading forum. I have tried a lot of them with good results. I started my grand children off with 1/2 oz. 20 ga. and went up to3/4 then 7/8 and never said anything to them about recoil and it is not a factor in their shooting.

[Frank Srebro]

Just wondering what purpose it serves in a 12-ga except for having very light recoil? Is the velocity high enough for woodcock hunting or similar size pest shooting?

I see you're in RI, close to the Hausmann's (June) and Rock Mtn (August) SxS shoots in PA. Please show us how it does against conventional 12-ga loads on their sporting courses. :)

[Jay Oliver]

This was just me messing around. Recoil was pretty much non existent on a #1 frame gun. I would have laughed or scratched my head at this load a few years ago myself. I loaded 100 more of them before I went to bed last night. I am guessing velocity is in the 1125-1150 range.

I haven't been to the shoots in PA yet, though I do go to the Addieville shoot in April and I plan on attending the NH New Years Day shoot.

I thought I would just share this with the group. It seemed to work better than it should...

[Bill Jolliff]

For what it's worth, I would like to contribute my experience with light 12 gauge lead loads.

I've been loading 1/2 ounce lead loads for about 4 years and I'm very happy with the results.

My recipe:
13.9 - 14.0 grains of Alliant Extra Lite powder,
Remington 209 primers,
Remington hulls: 2 3/4" Nitro Gold's, STS's and Gun Clubs,
Claybuster CB0175-12 pink wads and
one of Craig Smith's/Circle Fly 0.140 inch thick 20 gauge card wad that's in the bottom of the CB wad.

I sent some test loads to Tom Armbrust and in March of 2015 he tested them.

Speed averages 1343 fps and the pressure varies from 4200 to 5200 psi.

Using Winchester AA hulls and Winchester primers, those came out at 1367 avg. and 5100 psi.

I've loaded and shot probably around 4000 - 5000 of those in the past 4 years. Works good for me.

I suspect the pattern of those loads is pretty good. I've never patterned them but I'm sure it would be better than 1/2 ounce loads out of a .410.

That's all I shoot at Skeet and that's what I use at our local Sporting Clays course: Williamson (NY) Conservation and Sporting Club. At their SC course, there are no long Bo Whoop targets. These loads will break any presented if I do my part. I use my old trusty early A grade 12 gauge Fox (that I've owned for 50 years) choked Full in the left barrel for the long shots and IC in the right for the close ones. Just like you would use hunting.

Nice mild loads, clean burning, work OK in real cold temperatures and sound fine. And if your lead cost $40.00 per 25# bag, that's $0.10/10 cents an ounce. So I save a nickel a shot minus the penny apiece I pay for Craig Smith's wads picked up at Hausmann's in June.

Not much of any benefit as compared to 3/4 ounce loads as Craig pointed out earlier. More so compared against factory 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads tho.

What's not to like if you like light loads and certainly not for everybody.

Probably not a hunting load except maybe for woodcock or grouse.

I'd just like to add that in Iron Mike's get together in September of 2016 IIRC, I offered a very nice lady, Elaine, a box of my 3/4 ounce loads and a box of my 1/2 ounce loads because to shoot for score she had to use a side by side instead of her 1100 jam-o-matic. She had to use her partner's Parker and she was concerned about recoil. After she shot the round, I got a nice hug from Elaine.

I expect to be using them for this afternoons shoot at Wm'son and very likely I'll be joined by Jim DeMunck. He shoots 9/16 ounce loads and doesn't miss many birds. Among other guns, he shoots a Remington Model 10 Trap pump gun Full choked and doesn't miss many birds.

Sorry, this is kinda long and if you're gone this far, thanks.

[John Campbell]

This was just me messing around. Recoil was pretty much non existent on a #1 frame gun. ... It seemed to work better than it should...

Quite right. I've used a 3/4 oz load with 14 grs of Red Dot/Promo in my 12 bores for years with superb results. Easy on the shoulder and your gun. Not so easy on targets!

[Daniel Carter]

Bill my experience has been the same as yours, thank you for having them tested. A young lady i shoot with is an RN and shooting factory 1 1/8 loads gets a bruise on her cheek and co-workers ask if she is abused. Gave her some 3/4 and she turned to her father and said'' daddy you are going to make me some of these''. She went straight.

[Paul Harm]

Wish I would have seen Bills post a week ago before we got our reloading order. I would have ordered some extra lite. Bill, you probably already know that Rem, Win, Cheddite, and a couple of other mild primers will all interchange without changing pressures enough to worry about at the pressures we're reloading at. Those Remington primers [ and I'm a big Remington fan and collector ] are awful expensive. I too have shot 3/4oz loads for years but you guys have got me thinking.

[Paul Harm]

Danial, Gamaliel was bought out by Brownells. Where would one go for any reloading info from them ?

[Bill Jolliff]

Wish I would have seen Bills post a week ago before we got our reloading order. I would have ordered some extra lite. Bill, you probably already know that Rem, Win, Cheddite, and a couple of other mild primers will all interchange without changing pressures enough to worry about at the pressures we're reloading at. Those Remington primers [ and I'm a big Remington fan and collector ] are awful expensive. I too have shot 3/4oz loads for years but you guys have got me thinking.

Hi Paul,

Agreed, those Remington STS209 primers are expensive. I've lucked out buying them. I got 4 bricks of them, 4,000 primers, at a gun show for $30.00 per brick. And I found about another 1500 at a small local gun shop for about $30 per brick. And I got 5 bricks of them online for $38.00 each plus shipping, etc. which isn't too painful.

A lot of my shooting is with my early A grade 12 gauge Fox. Turns out the firing pins when the hammers are down extend into the standing breech, and therefore into the primers about 0.062". About 0.010" more than a couple other doubles I shoot.

Thus after both barrels are fired into Winchester primers for example, the gun is hard to break open because the firing pins are a little too far into the fired primers. It doesn't do that with the harder Remington's so the gun breaks open nice and easy.

I don't use Cheddite's because I think they are just slightly larger in diameter than USA primers and make the primer pocket just a little bigger so that if I go back to USA primers, those would be a little loose. It actually probably doesn't amount too much tho.

I do use Winchester 209's for my other loads at a much more reasonable price. And that helps I guess.

Bill

[Paul Harm]

Firing pins should never extend past the breech face in any break open gun. You have something wrong with the gun if they do. If they do, you run the possibility of the gun firing when it's closed. I don't think you lucked out, at least what I'm use to paying for primers. That's 190 or $200/5000. I'm use to anywhere from 112 to 135 depending on the brand. 209 Cheddites that are sold in the USA are the same size as our primers - Win, Rem, Fed, CCI, etc. I've loaded many shells with Win or Fed primers after using Cheddites with no problems. They are a little softer and guns with firing pins that strike on a angle will many times pierce them causing then to blow. I have a Parker and Remington hammergun that will blow Chedittes so I've gone to Win primers and paid the extra $20/5000 over the Cheddites. I have a friend who doesn't like recoil - he may like your 5/8 loads.

[Daniel Carter]

Paul i believe he is using a Fox and mine do the same thing. When you break the gun and cock it the hammers are withdrawn and do not protrude from the breech face when closing on a loaded shell.

[Paul Harm]

OK. So you're saying the hammers go back, but maybe the firing pins don't have springs to keep them back, so they loosely stick out. I'm assuming you can push them back in if you wanted. I have a Remington hammerless that the pins stick out when opening and the firing pins want to stay stuck in the primer making it hard to open. Once open they're back in. You can see the drag marks across the shell. Someday I'm going to have to open it up and see if it has broken springs, or maybe dirty. Or maybe they should have put springs in and didn't.

[Bill Jolliff]

Paul,

What Dan/Woodcock Survey is saying about Fox's is true. The firing pins are an integral part of the hammer and not separate and do not retract after firing. They stay in place in the primer of that round that just got shot until the lever is pushed to the right and begin opening the barrels which starts to cock the hammer which pulls the firing pin back.

You can take the fore end off, remove the barrels, release the lever back to center, push the SAFE OFF and pull the triggers. The firing pins will be extended thru the standing breech and you can't push them back in with your finger. You would be pushing against the main hammer spring.

And you don't have to cock the hammers to get the barrels back on like an L C. Smith.

I suppose it's fixable but I've had this A grade for more than 50 years and have "never turned a screw" as a one time dealer in Lancaster PA used to say. And I don't think previous owners have either.

So I just shoot reloads out of this gun that have Remington primers in them.

[John Campbell]

Timing is everything, as they say.

One of the key functions of a hammerless double is to retract the firing pins/tumblers in the first few degrees of cocking arc/movement of opening. Some designs do this better and faster than others. Those that don't tend to leave a drag mark on the fired primers. Especially primers with soft caps.

One gun design that is very efficient in this fast cocking action is the classic Anson & Deeley.

[Paul Harm]

I think most hammerless guns are " Anson & Deeley " design, but I do agree some cock the hammers quicker than others. I have seven 1894 Remingtons and only the highest grade one, a C grade, cocks the hammers a little slower sometimes. It must be right on the edge of doing it quick enough. About once or twice out of a hundred shells will it allow the hammers to drag on the shell and be hard to open.

[John Campbell]

While many "boxlocks" resemble the Anson & Deeley, few are mechanically the same. At least prior to the patent's expiration.

The H&R double is one exception. It IS a licensed A&D boxlock.

Otherwise, the Parker, Fox, Remington and more differ in key areas. And it is certain of these differences that often result in timing issues with firing pin/tumbler retraction.

[Paul Harm]

Well, I know a Parker isn't, but someone will have to educate me if a Remington isn't. Same with a Ithaca. There's a hammer, hammer spring, sear, sear spring, and the lever that cocks the hammer. That's it. The simple A&D action. At least that's my understanding of the A&D action. Maybe I don't understand some finer points that have escaped my attention.

[Daniel Carter]

Danial, Gamaliel was bought out by Brownells. Where would one go for any reloading info from them ?

Paul just saw this and apologize for the delay. I think you can google ''shotgun world reloading forum'' and you will be familiar with the site.

[Paul Harm]

I'm usually on it everyday. Not always writing replies, but checking it out along with the trap and SCs forums.

[Eric Wood]

For what it's worth, I would like to contribute my experience with light 12 gauge lead loads.

I've been loading 1/2 ounce lead loads for about 4 years and I'm very happy with the results.

My recipe:
13.9 - 14.0 grains of Alliant Extra Lite powder,
Remington 209 primers,
Remington hulls: 2 3/4" Nitro Gold's, STS's and Gun Clubs,
Claybuster CB0175-12 pink wads and
one of Craig Smith's/Circle Fly 0.140 inch thick 20 gauge card wad that's in the bottom of the CB wad.

I sent some test loads to Tom Armbrust and in March of 2015 he tested them.

Speed averages 1343 fps and the pressure varies from 4200 to 5200 psi.

Using Winchester AA hulls and Winchester primers, those came out at 1367 avg. and 5100 psi.

I've loaded and shot probably around 4000 - 5000 of those in the past 4 years. Works good for me.

I suspect the pattern of those loads is pretty good. I've never patterned them but I'm sure it would be better than 1/2 ounce loads out of a .410.

That's all I shoot at Skeet and that's what I use at our local Sporting Clays course: Williamson (NY) Conservation and Sporting Club. At their SC course, there are no long Bo Whoop targets. These loads will break any presented if I do my part. I use my old trusty early A grade 12 gauge Fox (that I've owned for 50 years) choked Full in the left barrel for the long shots and IC in the right for the close ones. Just like you would use hunting.

Nice mild loads, clean burning, work OK in real cold temperatures and sound fine. And if your lead cost $40.00 per 25# bag, that's $0.10/10 cents an ounce. So I save a nickel a shot minus the penny apiece I pay for Craig Smith's wads picked up at Hausmann's in June.

Not much of any benefit as compared to 3/4 ounce loads as Craig pointed out earlier. More so compared against factory 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads tho.

What's not to like if you like light loads and certainly not for everybody.

Probably not a hunting load except maybe for woodcock or grouse.

I'd just like to add that in Iron Mike's get together in September of 2016 IIRC, I offered a very nice lady, Elaine, a box of my 3/4 ounce loads and a box of my 1/2 ounce loads because to shoot for score she had to use a side by side instead of her 1100 jam-o-matic. She had to use her partner's Parker and she was concerned about recoil. After she shot the round, I got a nice hug from Elaine.

I expect to be using them for this afternoons shoot at Wm'son and very likely I'll be joined by Jim DeMunck. He shoots 9/16 ounce loads and doesn't miss many birds. Among other guns, he shoots a Remington Model 10 Trap pump gun Full choked and doesn't miss many birds.

Sorry, this is kinda long and if you're gone this far, thanks.


I’ve shot Bills load out of his gun and they break
Birds just fine. I use his 3/4 oz recipe for my
own 12 ga loads out of a Sterlingworth.

[Jay Oliver]

I ordered some new primed 2 1/2" Cheddite hulls and loaded them with 5/8oz. of #8.5 shot. It doesn't look like much shot in these 12ga. shells, but they have been performing well. I have let a few friends try them who have been equally impressed.

[Roberto S Siciliano]

Anybody know where I can buy some Alliant Extra Lite?

[edgarspencer]

Anybody know where I can buy some Alliant Extra Lite?

Percision reloading had some just recently

[Bill Jolliff]

Anybody know where I can buy some Alliant Extra Lite?

I think Graf and Son has, or had, Extra Light now.

That's where I got mine a few days ago.

[Ken Burgess]

Nice write up Bill. I miss Williamson shooting.
Ken