Parker gauge determination

[Jack Hamner]

Question--I just took my old Parker hammer gun to a well known sporting goods chain to see if I could find out the gauge of it. It was sold to me as a 14 gauge and I was curious to see if this was true. The man at the store, a 27 year veteran, tried to insert a 12 gauge measuring device into the chamber but it wouldn't go in. He then inserted a 16 gauge device into the chamber and it wobbled around with with a moderate amount of "play". From this, he concluded that the gauge was between a 16 and a 12, and probably a 14.
I read somewhere that to ascertain the true gauge of a shotgun, you had to insert a caliper device into the barrel and take a measurement at it's widest point and go with that measurement to determine gauge.
Someone did this for me a while back and determined that the gun is a 12b gauge.
Now I am TOTALLY confused! Which method is right? I would love for the 14 gauge determination to be correct and I feel that it is a possibility--the gun is early--serial number is in the 900's and barrels are decarbonized steel.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks!

[Dean Romig]

What is the actual, complete serial number??

There are factory records on most Parker shotguns.





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[Robin Lewis]

Jack, read the faq http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/12B.htm and pay particular attention to the last paragraph. I think this answers your question.... maybe?

[Jack Hamner]

What is the actual, complete serial number??

There are factory records on most Parker shotguns.




It is 0968......I posted about this same gun about a year or so ago. I could not find any records for 0968. (Actually, it looks like this under the barrels on the water table or whatever it's called!

N
0968

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Thanks!

[Jack Hamner]

Jack, read the faq http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/12B.htm and pay particular attention to the last paragraph. I think this answers your question.... maybe?

Thanks, Robin. I am still somewhat confused (doesn't take much!), but what I think I'm hearing is some of the 12b chambers were too small to handle a 12 ga. shell???

[Brian Dudley]

Yes. 12b was brass shell. Which was thinner walled than a 12g paper shell. So the diameter of the chamber is smaller. Or you could have a 14g.

Accurate measurements of chamber and bore are the only way to know for sure.

[Robin Lewis]

My guess is that you need to measure the bore diameter (not chamber or choke area) to know for sure. According to http://www.hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm you will measure .729 if its a 12 ga and .693 if its a 14 ga.

I found an interesting discussion on the A/B topic at https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/16b-guage/9315 which my clear up or maybe confuse the issue.....?

Interesting topic none the less. That thread concludes with the following text:

All depends what you call the gauge.

If you are referring to it at the theoretical diameter of the bore (I am talking here about the British standard because US guns were following it in these old time)
we have for example
12 gauge = 18.52 (=0.729 inches)
14 gauge = 17.60 (0.693 inches)
16 gauge = 16.81 (0.662 inches)
20 gauge = 15.62 (0.615 inches)
From the chart I posted you can see the 12B and the 16B have these theoretical values.

About the A ctges, because there is a conical recess they also have the same bore diameter.
Therefore the assertion : 16 B and 20 A guns have a different bore diameter is false.

If you are referring to the standards the Brits used :
12 gauge can vary from 18.80 (0.740) to 18.03 (0.710) (this last one being in fact theoretical 13 Ga)
14 gauge can vary from 17.81 (0.701) to 17.20 (0.677) (this last one being in fact theoretical 15 Gauge)
16 gauge can vary from 16.99 (0.669) to 16.18 (0.637) (this last one being in fact 18 Gauge)
20 gauge can vary from 15.90 (0.626) to 15.14 (0.596) (this last one being in fact theoretical 22 gauge)
To which value is he referring in this case ??

If always at the same period you are referring to the US way of manufacturing I have no info about the spread.
Perhaps (and I think) the spread was narrower.
To which value is he referring ??

If he is referring to the nowadays US standard, we get :
12 gauge can vary from 18.92 (0.745) to 18.41 (0.725)
16 gauge can vary from 17.40 (0.685) to 16.89 (0.665)
20 gauge can vary from 16.13 (0.635) to 15.62 (0.615)

Conclusion :
Saying that this corresponds or not to a 20 gauge is pretty inaccurate.
You have always to tell the period of time, the standard and the exact value of what you call a 20 gauge bore.

Shortly, I would say that, taking into consideration the historical context:
a 12 B and a 14 A guns have the same bore diameter
a 14 B and a 16 a guns have the same bore diameter
a 16 B and 20 A guns have the same bore diameter

[Dean Romig]

That stuff gets pretty complex and it takes a lot of experience to make a sound judgement. If the bores have been reamed - or even polished aggressively - NO conclusions can be drawn.





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[Brian Dudley]

A lot of early guns are oversized in the bores. So bore measurements alone will not give a true answer. If records are available, a letter is a good way to confirm original configuration.

[Dean Romig]

Unfortunately in this circumstance, our records don’t go down into three-digit serial numbers.






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[Jack Hamner]

My guess is that you need to measure the bore diameter (not chamber or choke area) to know for sure. According to http://www.hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm you will measure .729 if its a 12 ga and .693 if its a 14 ga.

I found an interesting discussion on the A/B topic at https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/16b-guage/9315 which my clear up or maybe confuse the issue.....?

Interesting topic none the less. That thread concludes with the following text:

All depends what you call the gauge.

If you are referring to it at the theoretical diameter of the bore (I am talking here about the British standard because US guns were following it in these old time)
we have for example
12 gauge = 18.52 (=0.729 inches)
14 gauge = 17.60 (0.693 inches)
16 gauge = 16.81 (0.662 inches)
20 gauge = 15.62 (0.615 inches)
From the chart I posted you can see the 12B and the 16B have these theoretical values.

About the A ctges, because there is a conical recess they also have the same bore diameter.
Therefore the assertion : 16 B and 20 A guns have a different bore diameter is false.

If you are referring to the standards the Brits used :
12 gauge can vary from 18.80 (0.740) to 18.03 (0.710) (this last one being in fact theoretical 13 Ga)
14 gauge can vary from 17.81 (0.701) to 17.20 (0.677) (this last one being in fact theoretical 15 Gauge)
16 gauge can vary from 16.99 (0.669) to 16.18 (0.637) (this last one being in fact 18 Gauge)
20 gauge can vary from 15.90 (0.626) to 15.14 (0.596) (this last one being in fact theoretical 22 gauge)
To which value is he referring in this case ??

If always at the same period you are referring to the US way of manufacturing I have no info about the spread.
Perhaps (and I think) the spread was narrower.
To which value is he referring ??

If he is referring to the nowadays US standard, we get :
12 gauge can vary from 18.92 (0.745) to 18.41 (0.725)
16 gauge can vary from 17.40 (0.685) to 16.89 (0.665)
20 gauge can vary from 16.13 (0.635) to 15.62 (0.615)

Conclusion :
Saying that this corresponds or not to a 20 gauge is pretty inaccurate.
You have always to tell the period of time, the standard and the exact value of what you call a 20 gauge bore.

Shortly, I would say that, taking into consideration the historical context:
a 12 B and a 14 A guns have the same bore diameter
a 14 B and a 16 a guns have the same bore diameter
a 16 B and 20 A guns have the same bore diameter

Thanks, Robin, but this ol' country boy is REALLY confused now!

[Jack Hamner]

A lot of early guns are oversized in the bores. So bore measurements alone will not give a true answer. If records are available, a letter is a good way to confirm original configuration.

Thanks so much, Brian.

[Jack Hamner]

Hypothetical question--given the low serial number and old military surplus steel barrels, is the gun more likely to be a 14 ga. or a 12b or can that question not be answered? I think only about 150 14 gauges were made. I assume a 14 ga. would be more valuable than 12b?

[Dean Romig]

Given the rarity of 14 bore Parkers, It’s more likely to be a 12B.





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[Chuck Bishop]

Without seeing the gun but knowing it's S/N, I'd guess it's the lowest grade back action lifter gun with a straight grip. Some of the old back action guns were chambered for the 12b brass cartridge which has the same dimensions as a 14ga. paper shell. I'll also venture a guess that the bore diameter is equivalent to an 11ga. gun. I have actually seen 12b/14 entered in the first stock book. I have one S/N 63 and I know of at least one other that a member has.

[Mills Morrison]

Is Richard Hoover still with us? He was the expert on these early odd gauges

[Dean Romig]

Richard Hoover, Charlie Price and Austin Hogan did a lot of research on the various bore and chamber sizes of the very early Parkers.

I have files containing all the known (at the time they were all with us and active) 11-gauge serial numbers and there are no three digit serial numbers in those files.





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[Jack Hamner]

Given the rarity of 14 bore Parkers, It’s more likely to be a 12B.





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Thanks, Dean...........I was hoping for a 14, but I expect you're right on this one.

[Jack Hamner]

Without seeing the gun but knowing it's S/N, I'd guess it's the lowest grade back action lifter gun with a straight grip. Some of the old back action guns were chambered for the 12b brass cartridge which has the same dimensions as a 14ga. paper shell. I'll also venture a guess that the bore diameter is equivalent to an 11ga. gun. I have actually seen 12b/14 entered in the first stock book. I have one S/N 63 and I know of at least one other that a member has.

Thank you, Chuck. I'm still somewhat confused as to what I have. How could I tell for sure other than having someone measure the bore diameter? Someone did this for me about a year ago and came up with the 12b. Don't know if I should get a second opinion or not! Thanks! Jack.

P.S. I just found an all brass unfired REM-UMC Best 12 gauge shell that will not go into either chamber of the gun. Not sure what that means, if anything, though.

[Dean Romig]

If that one is a 12A you need to try a 12 B and if a 12B won’t go in either chamber at all, then in all likelihood it’s a 14 gauge.





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[charlie cleveland]

a 14 ga shell is a lot eaiser to find than a 12 b....good luck on what ever it is....charlie

[Jack Hamner]

a 14 ga shell is a lot eaiser to find than a 12 b....good luck on what ever it is....charlie

I'm sure you're right--so far I haven't been able to find EITHER one! Thanks for the good luck wishes.

[Jerry Harlow]

These are the measurements I took for Jack a couple of years ago. I thought this was settled then. It is a 12 gauge bore. A 12b gun.

Here is the thread, and go to page 5.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=133088#post133088

"Thanks to a very gracious and savvy P.G.C.A member with the proper equipment, I now have some accurate figures which to work!
According to this fine gentleman, the chamber runs .770 out to .761. Then the barrels are as follows:
RIGHT--.730 to .731 at the end.
LEFT--.731 out to .732. at the end
Choke (?)- cyl & cyl
Chamber--2.425 (2.5)

So what does all this mean? Darned if I know. What I DO know is that it sounds too big to be 14 or 13 gauge--shucks!!! Sounds like many of you mentioned--some version of a 12 ga. --most likely a 12b???
Anyway , a BIG THANKS AGAIN TO ALL WHO HELPED ME!!!

P.S.--Even though it was probably luck, I'm pretty proud of my" homemade barrel measuring device" With it we came up with a figure of .724 compared to actual values of .730-.732 for a difference of only six to eight thousandths. Not too shabby for a magic marker tube, a little fine sandpaper, and a ramrod! (plus someone else's caliper)"