Lefever H 12 Gauge Questions

[Michael D Hankinson]

Picked up a 12 - 30" Barrels "H" Grade today at the local Grand Rapids MI Gun Show.
Barrels are marked "Second" Also wondering what pattern these barrels have?
Chokes appear to be IM in both barrels. Need to get a box of RST low pressure to try this one out. Thanks in Advance

[Sara LeFever]

Hi Michael,

The "second" would make me think that they are the second set of barrels made for that gun (that's just my guess; I could be totally wrong). I'd say the barrels are twist. I'm sure someone will be along with more definite answers.

Thanks for sharing! Any photos of the full gun? :)

Sara

[Michael D Hankinson]

Will take a few more photos tomorrow, I had just never seethe word "Second" on a set of barrels before, not all that familiar with Lefever guns other than the Nitro Specials.

[Frank Srebro]

H-Grade Lefevers were made with Best London Twist or Carman Fluid Steel barrels. Obviously yours are twist and the colors look so uniform they may have been redone.

Most 12-gauge Twist Lefever barrels will have factory bores of .739/740" diameter; thus if your drop-in choke gauge is reading I-Mod, the chokes are probably something like: strong Full.

The LAC protocol was to factory-number a second set of barrels to the frame even though they may have another production number. This will account for two different serial numbers on a 2nd set. The Lefever Arms Company only made first quality guns. Hence it's my guess the SECOND imprint on your barrel flats indicates a minor cosmetic issue (gun sold at a discount) and perhaps that your gun was assembled from parts after Ithaca bought the LAC?

[Brian Dudley]

Never seen that “second” marking before. Very interesting and could mean just about anything. And may not even be factory. One can only speculate.

[Bob Decker]

I will go along with Brian in never having seen the "Second" on a set of barrels before. If it were a second set of barrels I would expect a second serial number, as the barrels were numbered as they arrived and the frame was then numbered to the barrels at finishing. In addition it is rare for the grade of the barrels to be stamped along with the serial number in original Syracuse Lefevers. More photos of this gun might help to reveal its secrets.

[Michael D Hankinson]

Here are a few more photos, The "H" is also on the water table. Bought the gun from a Gentleman who was carrying the gun around the show while his son was trying to pedal a couple of Black Guns, no interesting the Old Double. Appreciate the replies to gain info. I don't normally look at 12s but could not turn this one down.

[George Lang]

I have seen A H Fox guns marked second and there was an article years ago in the Double Gun Journal that explained what it was. No longer have any DGJ's left to look it up.

[Frank Srebro]

Looks like a decent gun. Just for info, I currently own (3) original H-Grade Lefevers that span this gun's serial number and all three have the H imprint on their barrels.

[Michael D Hankinson]

Here are three more photos for reference. What would the stock chamber length be on this gun?

[Frank Srebro]

Woohoo, bonus points!!!! An ejector gun. :)

All three of my H Lefevers and one I'd sold have nominal 2-5/8" chambers but you'll want to check yours with a good chamber length gauge. Also, a strong suggestion to get the bores and wall thicknesses measured full length and do some consultations before shooting her with anything. Bad things have been done to many shotguns over 100+ years. :nono:

[Michael D Hankinson]

Have shot the gun with RST 1oz Spreader loads with 1150 Velocity, Gun weighs 7.25# and with those shells has a very low recoil. This weekend I purchased a box of ELY Grand Prix Paper shells with 1 1/16th oz #6 Shot 2 1/2". The box indicates for guns with a service pressure of 3 Tons, or European proof pressure of 850 kg per sq cm. From what I understand these are lower pressure than the RST.
Are these shooters or collector rounds?

[Bruce Day]

The Lefever catalog contains much information concerning the guns and loading, and is available from Dr Bob Decker.

See below for cartridge length.

[Drew Hause]

Carman Fluid Steel (no idea what that was) offered in 1908
https://books.google.com/books?id=5U0cu_tHZy8C&pg=PA1139&lpg

1912
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uy7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA73&lpg

“Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” for 850 BAR shells is about 10,700 PSI. The Ely loads are probably less (but Ely is unlikely to tell you :( ) but the RSTs are about 6000 psi.
As Frank suggested, I would not use the gun with any load until the barrels have been evaluated by someone with the expertise, equipment, and interest to do so.

[Brian Dudley]

I was just reading a dgj article from summer of 99 that talks about Ithaca guns marked 2nd. Theae were guns that had flaws of some sort or another that were available to employees at lower cost.
Their marking was actually “2nd” on the water table.

The subject lefever is marked differently and in a different location. and the gun dates to before ithaca ownership of Lefever. So I am not saying that there is any direct connection between the two.
But something to think about that maybe it does in fact mean of second quality as deemed by inspection and not for general sale.

[Dave Noreen]

Early on the A.H. Fox Gun Co. used a big 2ND --

68557

later they spelled out the word SECOND, see Tom Kidd's article The Double Gun Journal, Volume Six, Issue 2.