churchill 25" Barrels?

[Kurt Sauers]

Any opinions? Anyone have any experience with the 25" barrels and the Churchill rib? 25 just seems so short. I'm looking at one but I don't know how'd they be in the pheasant fields. Could be great for grouse.

[Dean Romig]

Pheasants and grouse are what the Brits shot with such barrels.





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[Kurt Sauers]

After shooting 28" barrels and an occasional 30. ,25 seems so short. But its a really nice looking gun

[Dean Romig]

Have confidence in your abilities to mount and point the gun in the Churchill style - the gun will do the rest.





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[Kurt Sauers]

I don't know the "Churchill Style" over any other style. Before I took a 20 year break from shooting i just shot. Never thought about it. Now all I do is think,too much. the last 2 times i went out I finally got back to just shooting and did much better. i cut my teeth on grouse 45 years ago and called what I did snap shooting. that transferred over to pheasants well enough. If Churchill is more instictive shooting then that's pretty much how I shoot ,I guess. From what I've read that's what it seems. Shooting isn't like riding a bike. It's much harder to get it back especially after putting 20 more years of wear on the body

[John Campbell]

Mr. Sauers:
The Churchill style, as advocated by Robert Churchill (below) is essentially a low-gun instinctive approach. Perfect for flushing game like grouse. Churchill's Shotgun Book outlines the technique fairly well.

What's more, it can be practiced with any barrel length gun. The short Churchill XXVs are ideal. But any 26-inch gun is virtually the same.

The Churchill rib is narrowed to provide the visual illusion of a longer barrel. It helps as well. But the whole game is about practice. With any gun of any barrel length. THAT will create the hits.

Nonetheless, a new Churchill XXV can't hurt!

Bob Churchill in his advocated "start/ready" position:

[Jerry Harlow]

And my wife said something to me about the combination of coat and pants I wore to church today. And mine were solid colors. She should look at this photo.

[Ed Blake]

The key to success is, of course, the crazy socks and plus fours.

[edgarspencer]

The Churchill XXV was a very popular model but has gone out of fashion.

[Ken Hill]

Kurt,

HOpefully, you can try to shoot the gun before you buy it. Churchill made good quality guns. The XXV was sort of a marketing gimmick in the late 20s/30s to sell more guns. They are usually lightweight and quite a few makers jumped on the lightweight bandwagon. However, Chuchill was the maker with the XXV! As John said above, the XXV was meant to be used with Churchill shooting technique.

I have never shot one, I just seem to shy away from barrels shorter than 27". The 25" barrels should allow you to buy a quality gun at a reduced price.

Ken

[Russell E. Cleary]

The key to success is, of course, the crazy socks and plus fours.

It could have been a picture of an American. In sneakers, dungarees and a wife-beater shirt.

[Kurt Sauers]

There are actually two I'm considering. Both at vintage double s. One is a Churchill, the other Rowland Watson

[John Campbell]

Either gun is superb.

But an original Churchill XXV is something to consider...

[Brian Dudley]

A good friend of mine owns a Churchill XXV and is looking to sell it. He put it on my table at Ernies this past year and it was getting a lot of looks from attendees.

[Drew Hause]

Robert Churchill taking a high pheasant. He was a very small man, and note the fully extended leading hand

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20002415/391411148.jpg

If you purchase the gun, use it, and nothing else, ALOT, before the season. Alternating with a longer barrel SxS (or the shame of a SA ;) ) will not work.

[Tom Flanigan]

The fully extended leading hand is how I was taught to shoot. When I was learning to shoot, my grandfather told me to point to a tree. Of course my hand was extended. I didn't point at the tree with a bent elbow. The point was taken and I have shot that way since that day. One reason I don't like beavertail forends is that it hinders keeping my left arm extended. I also noticed in pictures that Wilbur Fiske Parker shot that way also.

[Richard Flanders]

There are only two books that one needs to learn how to or to improve how they shoot a shotgun - "Churchills Shotgun Book", either edition, and Bob Bristers "The Art and Science of shotgunning". All other shotgunning books and articles combined don't match these two in the quality and clarity of information. Once I learned and bought into the Churchill method I shot birds and clays very well, though I always held my muzzle a bit lower than in the picture from his book above. The other day while failing miserably at shooting lefty, I tried holding the muzzle a tad higher than in this picture and the rest was/is history and I smashed most every clay with two different guns after that, and it seemed effortless. As for the 25" bbls, my best grouse/woodcock gun is a 24" PHE 16 that works brilliantly in any situation in hvy cover or over pointing dogs on more open ground. 25" would be just fine for what they were intended for.

[Todd Poer]

Richard I think what you described and stumbled into it and maybe on your own is the something called the Orvis Method or a Modified Churchill method. I think some shooting instructors at Sandonna and through other Orvis shooting schools coined the phrase and methodology for instinctive shooting based on improving Churchill. They also did say Churchill method when employed properly was developed for instinctive shooting but was supposedly taught or applied wrongly. Tom Deck wrote a book about it and they called it the "Orvis Guide to Gunfitting" First half of book was dedicated to methodology and then they talked about gunfitting. Chapter 6 about traits of top shooters was great as well.

Essentially the Modified Churchill has the gunstock ever so slightly tucked under arm and gun tilted up like at a 35 to 45 degrees with muzzle positioned a few inches lower than eye level but in site view periphery. Stance is important as well. Your arms are extended a little more but you can find a comfortable position so its natural. As explained to me the reason the barrels are held higher than typical Churchill was to reduce muzzle movement. Its also natural for that barrel to be slightly lined up and pointing toward intended target and proper setup for consistent gun mounting. Instead of moving muzzle all over the place the eye, gun and body are all aligned toward moving with the target. When done correctly your instinctively already pointing and moving with the target and all you have to do is raise gun to shoulder and shoot.

Anyway its a great read and I refer back to it every year before hunting season and try to always work the footwork concepts in when SC shooting. There are some other methods that others have developed as well that build off of this.

A few years back another shotgun shooting instructor explained why to develop that thousand yard stare when focusing on targets at a distance instead of focusing on barrels. He was talking more about physiology limitations. Seems the eye pupil for targets at a distance is relaxed and when focusing on objects closer your eye muscles tense up. It takes a few more milliseconds for your eyes to relax to clearly see those distant targets. If your looking at target then focusing on barrel and aiming and then trying to allow your eyes to relax to see target again your going to be behind target and then rushing herky jerky to catch up.

Anyway its all good stuff if find something that works for you. Same thing as swinging a golf club.

[Jeff Christie]

My father used the Ithaca SKB 20 ga with 25" barrels and English grip for the last 25+ years of his hunting life. He used it primarily on tough mean Iowa roosters. He killed a LOT of them. He loved it. It is not as elegant as a true Churchill but it is true to the concept.