WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

[Russell E. Cleary]

Late night think piece

-- Was offered a 16-gauge, #1-framed Trojan; 28-inch bbls; f/m chokes; estimated at circa 13 3/4-inch length of pull; price: $1,800
-- Would like another 16 (does not two back-ups for one hunting trip make sense?)
-- Condition possibly all original, as per my inexpert eye; maybe re-blacked barrels; 25% case color remaining; (no photos to show);
-- Checks out with serialization book
-- Lady shooter friend mounted it and said it felt JUST RIGHT for her -- in contrast with her mounting my father’s 1-framed 28-inch VH 16 with 14 ¼ inch length of pull; (gun would presumably fit me OK with butt-pad)
-- Barrels rang a little lower frequency than my other two 16s; but another man present, who should know, said they sounded good to him; no apparent dents in barrels; some scuffs on wood; silvered trigger plate, as per gun that has been hunted with. Overall, moderately used but not abused.
-- Owner said he would NOT ALLOW an inspection period, as he once had a bad experience with that (swapped parts)
-- Re-grouped for a day and then submitted to the owner an appeal (a “strategery”) for my being able to have the gun inspected; good reasons why in this case he should feel comfortable deviating from his “no inspection” policy; cited name and qualifications of my smith for the inspection, our common interests, obvious rapport, etc.
-- Owner STILL said “no” to an inspection
-- Thanked him for the quick response to my offer, and have attempted to go on with my life. Is not the hunt 90% of the fun?
-- Now am ruminating on how I never learned to operate a Hosford gauge nor seriously considered buying one, thus thinking about the adjurations of… Sensei Bill, was it?; heck, what legitimate seller would not offer a two-day inspection?; I’m no serious high-end collector anyway, so do I really have a use for a Hosford gauge? (now I know the answers to those questions).
-- What would you do?

[Reggie Bishop]

I would move along to the next one.

[Todd Poer]

Ditto on principle if seller would not allow gunsmith to view gun even in his presence that you both know. However there are lots of old guns bought and sold with no problems without a hosford gauge being involved. You indicated that there were no glaring issues and everything looks worn correctly and lightly used so what makes you think you need a hosford gauge. It sounds low risk to me.

I think on this one like most purchases involving even moderate conspicuous consumption, mind justifies the heart and ultimately it depends on the significance of lady friend shooter. Good luck with that decision. BTW post pictures of gun when you get the chance. ;):eek: Just kidding.

My guess is if that was not even a slight consideration you would have moved on without second thoughts if gun was just for you. I call these AMFYOYO moments if indeed gun for you is only consideration. However, the gun fits her and your justification is that it could be a back up to back up another gun, which may be well worth it. Have heard of back up guns having issues on big trips. If you like shooting old guns, they sometimes have issues and leave you hanging so having many options is my justification. Other justification for you is that with that shorter stock that could be your cold weather gun to account for when your all bundled up with a heavy coat that shorter stock will fit nicely.

Seller has basically indicated he doesn't need to sell it based on his - my price and my terms posture but that short stock could cause him problem. It is still a needs based negotiation though. Rarely in a fairly common commodity does a seller or buyer get both sides of the equation.

[Mills Morrison]

There will be others. If seller is a jerk, it is best to move on

[Rick Losey]

-- Owner STILL said “no” to an inspection


and then you say no to a purchase

i have not paid a lot of attention to Trojan prices lately but the price on this does not sound like such a great deal that makes putting up with this guy necessary

[Randy G Roberts]

No inspection, no deal. Totally unreasonable by todays standards. I would look for another.

[Brian Dudley]

Dont worry, there are others out there at that price. Maybe even one that has an uncut stock.

[William Davis]

That’s high end price for a Trojan 16, I don’t quibble over a few hundred bucks if the gun is just right, however refusal to allow inspections is a flag.

Willam

[Russ Jackson]

Always a good rule of thumb ,No Inspection Period ,No Purchase ! And even with a return policy you have to be careful ,I bought a DH Grade from a seller with a return policy and when I received the gun it had just too many issues for me and I sent it back the day I got it and notified him it was in the mail on its way back and he refused to give me my money back once he got the gun back until the gun resold as he claimed he had already paid the consignor ! It ended up in quite a mess ,I reported him to Gun Broker and did eventually get my money back !The gun resold the next auction ,I am not sure if that was why I received my money or because of my dispute to be honest !

[Shawn Wayment]

I agree...no inspection, no deal.

[Gerald McPherson]

If I don't like a sellers attitude I don't buy his item whatever it is. There is a local shop that I don't even visit because of the current owners attitude. However there is another shop that is the opposite. I enjoy doing business with them. If he does a transfer for me he always expresses appreciation. Just my two cents worth.

[Paul Ehlers]

I'm a little confused here. Is this an internet purchase or a gun in-hand purchase? In the original post it's stated that the lady friend mounted the gun & said it felt good. In my experiences an in-hand transaction normally doesn't have an inspection period attached to it being has you are inspecting the gun personally & not buying it sight un-seen.


If the seller or you don't have the tools to inspect wall thickness, choke constrictions etc. and you are uncomfortable with the gun or seller in anyway, it's time to walk away from the deal and continue on with the hunt for the right gun.

[Bill Holcombe]

Thats a high price for a worn but good condition 16 trojan with a cut stock, before the subject of no inspection even comes up.

I have seen a few VH 16s that sound in similar condition sell for less than that this year.

It would have to be either a really nice hard to find gun I wanted(which it doesn't sound like this is) or a really attractive price(which this certainly is not) for me to forego an inspection.

[Richard Flanders]

Every time I've bought a gun on the Internet that said, "no returns", I got a lemon that required further expense to get it up to snuff, and sometimes I haven't even been able to get it "right". Just walk away. There will be another.

[Russell E. Cleary]

Thanks to all, named or un-named, who have responded.

Todd:
1) The lady shooter is not THE significant other. She is a family friend, who once was a competitive skeet shooter, and probably would shoot guns again if one fit. There have been changes with aging, but is still a very active outdoors-lady.
2) Not low risk as I see it. My inexpert visual check of the gun came up with no problems, but definitely a higher condition Trojan than I have been seeing offered. However, my looking only goes so-far. What lurks below? If usability and monetary value rests primarily on barrel soundness, why risk injury with over-honed bores; or with excessive or misaligned chamber or forcing cone lengthening?
3) The owner did not object to a professional on-site inspection, just to my taking it away for a couple days for my smith to look at, with payment in full up-front.
4) AMFYOYO? Need acronym decoder. Is it risqué?

Brian: I’m not sure that the stock was cut, plastic butt plate looked original. Maybe originally ordered for a smaller person, if that was possible with a Trojan.

Russ: Very bad treatment of you and your money.

Paul: Gun was in hand. I am not qualified to perform a professional-level inspection. Are you saying that it is not customary to have a two or three-day return policy, after paying in full, taking the gun to a professional for examination, and then determining that it is not fundamentally sound or as described? If so, I have learned something vital.

All the opinions on value as I have described the gun are appreciated, especially since I neglected to ask someone with a phone or camera take pictures and email them to me.

[Rick Losey]

just and aside- someone i shoot with bought a gun for his son, all LOOKED good.

later he had a gauge out measuring another gun and thought while he had it out he would check the one he got for his son

turned out to be very thin walls- looked good, but was not

you just cannot beat actually measurements and if you don't have the gear, having the opportunity to have it done as an inspection

[allen newell]

Move on, there are more out there.

[Tom Flanigan]

Unless the gun has appreciable case color left, it is priced high. I recently bought a nice 16 bore un-messed with Trojan for $1300 and a PH in original condition, fluid steel barrels, with about 25% case colors for $1,800. If it was me, I would pass on this gun, but it's not my decision to make. There are guns out there with decent prices, you just have to have patience. The best place to find a gun at decent prices is on this board. I have bought one recently and have seen others that were priced fairly with some on the low side.

[Bill Murphy]

Wait a minute. If your lady friend mounted it and liked it, you obviously had the opportunity to inspect it. Have I missed something??

[Russell E. Cleary]

Tom: Case color on top and sides had pretty good coverage – that vast un-engraved "Art-Deco" (or is it Classical!) Trojan canvass – and looked authentic with that oil-in-water look, i.e., no garish “tiger-striping”.

It was the under-side of the receiver that was so very lacking in case color, and probably lead me to underestimate case color overall as being only 25%.

Bill: I neither have the knowledge nor equipment to evaluate and measure such as barrel wall thickness, but probably should. So, my examination was not thorough enough for me to have confidence in settling the purchase without the gun being examined by a professional.

The seller would have all the cash for the transaction while I had the gun for a couple of days “on approval”. Is that just not done, since the gun was “in-hand”?

[Todd Poer]

Thanks to all, named or un-named, who have responded.

Todd:
1) The lady shooter is not THE significant other. She is a family friend, who once was a competitive skeet shooter, and probably would shoot guns again if one fit. There have been changes with aging, but is still a very active outdoors-lady.
2) Not low risk as I see it. My inexpert visual check of the gun came up with no problems, but definitely a higher condition Trojan than I have been seeing offered. However, my looking only goes so-far. What lurks below? If usability and monetary value rests primarily on barrel soundness, why risk injury with over-honed bores; or with excessive or misaligned chamber or forcing cone lengthening?
3) The owner did not object to a professional on-site inspection, just to my taking it away for a couple days for my smith to look at, with payment in full up-front.
4) AMFYOYO? Need acronym decoder. Is it risqué?

.

Price is what you pay, value is what you get. The value of family friend that happens to be a neat sporting lady could be immeasurable value and how much that weighs in is a tough choice that sounds like your struggling with. Don't know your marital status and it really does not matter. People assume significance of another as a term that is non committal to some sort of romantic involvement according to pop culture. I think it is a miss used term to some extent. Now if you would have said a lady friend with benefits, yea well.:) Personally have had close professional relationships with some women that had significance in my life but since married would never cross that line. Your reasons are your own and I think it great that you might consider buying a gun that you see some benefit for yourself and could maybe let a friend use, that happens to be as described a neat lady. But again if gun was just for you then you probably would not have posed the question or even mentioned her.

Buyer beware and you sound like someone that knows their limitations and that is cool. I agree with sentiment trust but verify and seller is not being lenient on a verification issue for you. Is that a red flag, I don't know but he is being cautious as well and to him that sounds like a legitimate reason based on his painful experience. Definitely does not sound like he is giving you any type of consideration for taking gun to someone in your process that you know and trust. I don't think he is being a jerk necessarily but it doesn't sound like he knows you enough outside of meeting about this gun transaction to give blanket trust. If you can't find a gunsmith close by that can give you both comfort and satisfaction then it might not be worth the hassle as others have also stated.

Others have also suggested it might be at the top of the range of value for a Trojan and maybe even a premium. Without seeing gun that is speculation but it could be spot on point. However gun could have set in someones glass cased gun cabinet that got years of sun exposure, that might have faded the case coloring on bottom of receiver as well as someone that carried that gun over his arm more than they shot it. You did not mention any story behind it.

Your first post partly framed they guy as being a jerk or at least uncompromising and maybe he is. If you think he is then my subliminal unspoken term is AMFYOYO = Adios Mother Franker Your On Your Own.

[Tom Flanigan]

Without seeing gun that is speculation but it could be spot on point. However gun could have set in someones glass cased gun cabinet that got years of sun exposure, that might have faded the case coloring on bottom of receiver as well as someone that carried that gun over his arm more than they shot it.

I spoke with Oscar Gaddy years ago and he told me that sunlight will not dull case colors.

[Todd Poer]

I spoke with Oscar Gaddy years ago and he told me that sunlight will not dull case colors.

Really. So Dr. Gaddy says UV rays from sunlight will not degrade case coloring. The man new his stuff. So the only way case colors are lost I take it is by wear or some caustic chemical. I assume this is only for the traditional bone, leather, and charcoal method and not the cyanide process?

[Tom Flanigan]

I had Parker exposed to direct sunlight over a period of time. I thought it had diminished the color so I asked Oscar. He gave me the scientific reason why it wasn't so. I've long since forgot the detail. I didn't ask him about the cyanide process but I would imagine it holds true for that also