Live bird gun?

[Eric Grims]

I have always considered the label, "live bird gun" to mean a shotgun without a safety. Is this correct? I have a 1916 4E single barrel Ithaca Flues with no safety and understood this may be referred to as a live bird gun. Is that true?
Thanks

[Frank Srebro]

I have always considered the label, "live bird gun" to mean a shotgun without a safety. Is this correct? I have a 1916 4E single barrel Ithaca Flues with no safety and understood this may be referred to as a live bird gun. Is that true?
Thanks

The short answer for your gun is: no. Vintage single barrel trap (SBT) guns were generally made without a safety so there's no chance of calling for the target with the safety ON. No "do-overs" in serious Trap shooting. A shotgun capable of two shots is essential for high stakes live bird shooting. Also, live bird (pigeon) shooting rules require that two shots must be fired at/for each bird. If the bird is killed with the first shot the shooter fires a second one at the bird or into the ground. Thus a single-barrel break open shotgun won't do at the rings.

Now, what makes a vintage/safetyless side-by-side shotgun a live bird gun is another question that would take many paragraphs to detail. Personally I'm not up to it. :whistle:

[Randy G Roberts]

Eric you can search the forum and find a wealth of information on this topic of actual live bird or pigeon guns vs guns with no safety. I recently acquired a V grade 20 gauge with 32" barrels and no safety, factory correct. It is configured as a live bird gun with a straight stock and double triggers but I doubt anyone
ordered a 20 gauge to shoot live bird events so I would not consider it a live bird gun IMO.

[Dean Romig]

The term “live bird gun” is a misnomer used on a good number of guns made without a safety.
Even using the term “competition gun” may not be an accurate description for a safetyless gun.
Some folks just prefered their gun not have a safety for the kind of hunting or shooting they did.





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[Ed Blake]

A couple years ago at the Southern a dealer a nicely redone GH with 30” barrels and straight grip,no safety. Classic live bird configuration; however, the gun was on a #1 frame and quite light. Figured it may have been for someone who did not want to be bothered with a safety.

[Kevin McCormack]

There are plenty of examples out there of upland bird guns (e.g., NOT designed for pigeon, trap, or duck/goose shooting) that were ordered without safeties for one reason or another. Two most recent ones that stick in my mind are a really nice 26" DH 20 gauge Parker and an ultra-rare 26" Fox CE 20 ga.

[Dean Romig]

I recall a CHE 20 gauge with no safety, 30” Damascus barrels, Straight-grip stock and double triggers that was originally shipped to Canada.






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[Mark Ray]

I hunt quail regularly with a gentleman that carries either a model 21 with a disabled safety, or a Merkel that he custom odered in the 50’s with no safety. The 21 a 28 bore, and the Merkel a .410. He carries the guns broken until the birds flush, closing the gun and shouldering in one movement.

[Randy G Roberts]

So have any of you ever came across a gun configured as the V grade I described above, I would think that would be a little unique. What would your thoughts be on the intended use of a 20 gauge with 32" tubes and no safety ?
With an ordered LOP at 14.5" I doubt it was for a slighter built Gent or a Lady.
Also ordered with both barrels to shoot 180 pellets of #7 in a 30" inch circle at 40 yards.

[Dean Romig]

The CHE 20 that I mention above is pretty close to the V you describe Randy. I don’t know how the chokes were ordered but I can find out. I imagine they were pretty tight though because it was shipped, as I recall, to one of the prarie provinces. Whether it was used for pothole ducks or prarie grouse is anybody’s guess.





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[Dave Noreen]

a really nice 26" DH 20 gauge Parker and an ultra-rare 26" Fox CE 20 ga.

Sounds like those might be considered "plantation Quail guns" where the shooters road horseback with the empty gun carried in a scabbard and only loaded when the shooter dismounted and walked in for the flush.

[Randy G Roberts]

The V grade I have was on an O frame and weighed 6 lb-12 oz when it left the factory. One would think a target gun would have been on a heavier frame
for the most part, seems a logical assumption. Gun still weighs the same today.

[Mark Ray]

So have any of you ever came across a gun configured as the V grade I described above, I would think that would be a little unique. What would your thoughts be on the intended use of a 20 gauge with 32" tubes and no safety ?
With an ordered LOP at 14.5" I doubt it was for a slighter built Gent or a Lady.
Also ordered with both barrels to shoot 180 pellets of #7 in a 30" inch circle at 40 yards.

sounds like a hell of a Dove pass shooting gun!

I will admit, when I am on a Dove stand, and by myself (well just Hobbs and I) I frequently have the gun off safety. Hobbs has a habit that I cannot break, that when he hears the safety click off, he looks around feverously for the incoming bird. Just that little motion frequently sends Mr. Gray Feathers darting in another direction!

[Randy G Roberts]

[QUOTE=Mark Ray;255590]sounds like a hell of a Dove pass shooting gun!

Yeah, it will be when I get it back. Right now it is in the capable hands of Mr. Dudley for a resto.

[Ed Blake]

Frank makes a great point about live bird shooting being a two shot game, however, Bruce Canfield talks about in his book, in his part of Pennsylvania, it was sometimes a one shot game depending on which local rules were being used. I disremember who I lent my book to, or I’d look it up for more detail.

[Mark Ray]

Frank makes a great point about live bird shooting being a two shot game, however, Bruce Canfield talks about in his book, in his part of Pennsylvania, it was sometimes a one shot game depending on which local rules were being used. I disremember who I lent my book to, or I’d look it up for more detail.

Often in non sanctioned shoots, the rules are a little relaxed. It is true that in TAPA or similar shoots two shots are required. I have always made it a practice to do my very best to center punch the bird twice, even if I put a wad up its keester just over the wire.

Many years ago, during a 30 shooter "miss and out", with a healthy buy in, and very healthy buy backs, came down to myself and two other shooters that were older, and better, than me. One of the guys was a internationally ranked TAPA shot, and made the suggestion that we call it quits, and split three ways. The third guy refused, so up to the line we went. I was first and killed my bird, and so did the next guy. The guy that didn't split, practically skinned his bird right over the wire, and immediately toggled the lever on his P. gun Mirage, just as that pigeon used every last feather he still owned to do the "dead Rooster Glide" out of the ring. Shooter number three, and a known hothead, closed the gun, jammed the barrels in the sand and pulled the trigger, walked over the barrel for empties and slammed the gun in the barrel nose first and HARD, uttering the name of a DIETY in vain.....stormed off to his pickup and left!

We split the pot in two......

[Drew Hause]

What makes a Live Bird gun?
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24472

1st year production Flues SBT with a safety courtesy of Randy Davis

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/413853788.jpg

[Daryl Corona]

A number of shoots in PA. had single barrel events. You did'nt have to shoot a single barrel gun but just load one shell in your SxS for a single shot at the bird. If you were shooting a two barrel event, full use of the gun was required.

[Brian Dudley]

What makes a gun a “Live Bird Gun” is if it was used for competitive live pigeon shooting when new. Period.

Beyond knowing the history of a gun and its original use, the titling of “live bird gun” is based solely on commonly found features on actual live bird guns.

One could argue that the term is more used today as a sales tactic to try and evoke a mystique or rarity to the gun being sold. Not much different than the term “minty”.

[todd allen]

On the two shot thing, in my 30 some years of pigeon shooting I can tell you this. No matter what the rules, it's totally stupid to not shoot every bird twice, even if it's in multiple pieces. Shoot the biggest piece!
That said, at the last bird, you MUST shoot the second shot to render the gun empty before leaving the line.
No where on the planet are you less likely to see an accidental discharge, than at a properly run shoot.

[Frank Srebro]

It sounds like there are some local variations but this is posted on the box controller/scorer shack at a club that has regular races. Traditional rule and that's at every bird not just your last one.

[todd allen]

Rules vary from club to club, but if you're shooting 50 cent cartridges at a ten dollar bird, give em a dollars worth each. The ammo is the cheapest part of the shoot.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a "dead" bird get up and get over the fence.

[Mark Ray]

Rules vary from club to club, but if you're shooting 50 cent cartridges at a ten dollar bird, give em a dollars worth each. The ammo is the cheapest part of the shoot.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen a "dead" bird get up and get over the fence.

Back when I used to practice shooting hand thrown birds, we used a wobble trap set up on a platform so that the release height from the ground was about 7', and the minimum launch angle high enough to just clear the wire. We would always shoot "pieces" of the target for barrel number two, even if it was just a puff of grey dust.

[todd allen]

When I started shooting targets, everything was practice for hunting. When I started shooting live birds, everything else was practice for the ring. (hunting excluded)
American Doubles is great practice for developing second barrel skills. International Trap is great for learning to see and react to targets quickly.

[Dean Romig]

Just remembered that I once bought a pretty mean GH 0-frame, 16-bore Damascus gun that a previous owner had chosen to eliminate the safety on thereby converting it not into a 'live bird gun' but into a gun that better suited his needs and purposes. The plate with the initial "T" in Olde English Script (or the numeral "5") could be brass or it could be gold... never had it tested. But it's certainly not a "Live Bird Gun" beyond the fact that he hunted live upland birds.

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