English Best compared to a Parker

[Bill Holcombe]

I am curious how an English best gun compares to a Parker? I know people say they are like comparing apples and oranges as being two different guns, but I am not asking which is better.

I am more curious what is it about English Best guns that is so different? Partly I am trying to grasp what makes a Best gun a Best gun, but also just what is different about them compared to a Parker.

I have stumbled upon an English Best Boxlock gun that is intriguing to me. It has bushed firing pins and double safety sears and better internal fit and finish on a 28 inch barrel with a 15 inch LOP on some gorgeous wood topping the scales at a 6lbs 3 oz 12 gauge.

I have read enough to realize that most Best guns are considered sidelocks, but this one is a boxlock which is far more appealing to me.

So any assistance in understanding what a BEST gun is and how they differ/compare to Parkers would be quite appreciated!

Cheerio

[Kevin McCormack]

There really is no comparison - almost without exception, American double guns started life as basic utility grade hardware store guns, and underwent successive elaborate embellishments (e.g., more select exotic wood for stocks, intricate checkering and carving, extensive engraving commensurate with the ascending grade(s), polishing and plating of internal parts, etc.) as the price went up. In essence, they were all assembled from pre-manufactured parts much like an assembly line automobile.

To really understand the difference between these guns and the British "bests", I highly recommend watching on YouTube the British Shooting Times production of "Purdey Guns and Rifles" (or any of the similar Purdey presentations), to really understand the almost primitive nature of the approach to building a "best" gun. The presentation is about an hour long and well worth the investment in time; I find the segments on stockmaking and sidelock construction and regulation absolutely mesmerizing. I have watched it at least a dozen times and often go back to selected segments to absorb the magical way they produce their fine guns. (Holland & Holland have equally good feature films on the construction and finishing of their guns.).

[Eric Eis]

Kevin just about sums it up, plus the feel is different when it's in your hands, I can't explain it.

[William Davis]

Is a Corvette a better car than a Jaguar, Porsche or Ferrari ? Each maker has strong following. All have won at LeMans. The Corvette will probably run more trouble free miles than the others. Parker’s are very reliable handle well and have a strong following . No doubt owners of English shotguns think they are better without being able to give a concrete reason.

William

[Bill Holcombe]

Again I wasn't asking better or worse. I just was curious how they differed. I am interested in a best, but want to make sure it is different enough from a parker. Has nothing to do with better.

But to answer your question, the ford GT is unequivocally better than the vette :)

[Rich Anderson]

Kevin nailed it. A box lock can still be a best quality gun. IMHO it's the human factor that makes a "best" gun a "best" gun. These are completely hand built. I'm blessed with two Purdey's and a H&H compare them side by side with an identical configured Parker (or Fox) and the English gun is more lively in the hands. For instance my H&H is a straight grip 20ga with 26 inch barrels and tips the scale under six pounds my DHE 20 configured exactly the same way is almost 6 1/2 pounds.

[Rick Riddell]

Have to agree with Kevin, the American guns foundation is in the utility, a "Best gun" starts life as an idea and slowly takes shape into a lightweight balanced, handcrafted fine tuned machine. To be quite honest with opinions, even machined/handcrafted British guns have a quality to them American gun makers didn't achieve.

[Bill Murphy]

A true gun person will have a selection of both categories. I have had Parkers and English guns since I was in my teens but was seventy before I acquired my dream English best. It really does have something the others don't have.

[John Campbell]

To fully comprehend English Best guns, one must also consider clientele.

English Best guns were made up for RICH individuals. Many in pairs. And nothing but the finest in craftsmanship, precision and art were acceptable for this market. An English aristocrat simply did not show up on a shoot with a keepers gun in hand. He carried a gun that caught the eye and envy of others. A Best.

This is what made the reputations of Purdey, Holland & Holland, Boss and others.

American guns, including the Parker, were basically products. And when required, embellished and fitted to higher levels. But they were still basically products. In British terms, keepers guns.

Sorry to be blunt. But it's the truth.

[Jay Gardner]

Have to agree with Kevin, the American guns foundation is in the utility, a "Best gun" starts life as an idea and slowly takes shape into a lightweight balanced, handcrafted fine tuned machine. To be quite honest with opinions, even machined/handcrafted British guns have a quality to them American gun makers didn't achieve.

Additionally, most hunting in GB was/is driven shoots not busting through brush in American grouse coverts.

[Mike Poindexter]

An American professional's take on the issue: http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html. I like my farm implements.

[Eric Eis]

You gotta to love him, he tells it as it is.............

[Kirk Potter]

The only problem I have with that article, is I've honestly never heard anyone claim a Parker or any of the ones he lists to be the equal to a "Best" gun. Not once.

I mean, I love my PH, but I could buy 25 of them with what I'd pay for a H&H Royal.

[Dean Romig]

Dewey conveniently omits the Lefever. The reason? There is nothing about the Lefever to ‘trash’.






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[Garry L Gordon]

Parkers are a marvel of American industry. Although there's a heck-of-a-lot of hand work in a Parker, what sets it apart is the quality AND the fact that it's a factory gun...NOT a completely handmade "best" gun. To me, it's a comparison that shouldn't be made as if they were intended to be the same. The comparison must also take into consideration the cultures that produced them. Saying "apples v. oranges" is probably too simplistic, but might be a good start at differentiation.

Why not just appreciate each for what it is? -- Great guns by great makers.

[Bill Holcombe]

Again, I didn't mean this as a comparison as to what is better. Mostly I am just curious if they are different enough to merit owning a nice London gun or if I should just put that money towards another Parker.

As an example, I do not feel a Fox or LC or Lefever or winchester, etc are different enough to merrit pursuing in my opinion. I would much rather just own another Parker.

English Best guns I have always read and heard were different enough from classic american doubles that it was almost a different shooting experience handling one.

[Garry L Gordon]

The two are different. Feature for feature, an English best is lighter, (generally) made to minimal tolerances, has different handling characteristics, and made to order. Unless you order one, you are getting someone else's specifications -- but, still extraordinary guns. Actually, I see enough differences in the American maker's guns to want one (OK, more than one) of each. Are they the same as an English best? Very likely not in most "expert's" opinions (I am absolutely NOT an expert).

I have had wine that cost a great deal and had a great reputation, and have had wine that cost much less and tasted good enough that I could not tell the difference. I know it was my inability to discern the difference, but I am also sure that my biases probably came into play. Again, when you take bias out of the equation (not easy to do), you get two different kinds of guns.

Now, who the heck am I to say this?...just another guy with an opinion, and we all know what that means.:)

[Rick Riddell]

Go for the English "Best Gun" but if your heart is in Parkers, well you know what to do!

[Jay Gardner]

Parkers are a marvel of American industry. Although there's a heck-of-a-lot of hand work in a Parker, what sets it apart is the quality AND the fact that it's a factory gun...NOT a completely handmade "best" gun. To me, it's a comparison that shouldn't be made as if they were intended to be the same. The comparison must also take into consideration the cultures that produced them. Saying "apples v. oranges" is probably too simplistic, but might be a good start at differentiation.

Why not just appreciate each for what it is? -- Great guns by great makers.

^^^ This pretty much sums it up nicely. I have an English gun many consider to be equal to any “best” and I have several nice Parker’s. You can’t really compare them and I don’t care to, I just appreciate them for what they are.

[William Davis]

If you are comparing shootablity, English Guns are often much lighter, some appreciate light and prefer it. Personally I like heavier guns.

William

[Rich Anderson]

A London gun VS a Parker is much the same as Russel boots VS Danner or another manufacturer. The others are manufactured the Russels hand made as is the London gun.

Do you want a side lock or box lock a 12 or a small bore? I recently sold a very nice 20ga Charles Boswell best box lock for what a GHE 20 in excellent condition would sell for. A best side lock even in a 12 bore will set you back five figures and probably be between an AHE and AAHE depending on condition.

My English guns are in 12, 16 (a two bbl set) and a 20 in hammerless guns and I wouldn't trade any of them. If you have your heart set on a London gun then by all means add one to your collection.

[Kirk Potter]

Is their such a thing as a “value” best? I realize value here is subjective obviously, but are their deals to be had? Outside of the big names?

[Rich Anderson]

You can find a very nice best gun from lesser known makers than Purdey, Holland & Holland or Boss.

[Eric Eis]

Is their such a thing as a “value” best? I realize value here is subjective obviously, but are their deals to be had? Outside of the big names?

There are always deals, but it just like Parkers, if it fits and you love, it buy it !
I bought a Boss round action at a steal and I bought a DH Damascus way over market price!

The question is. Does the gun talk to you...................... I have a H&H gun (no a pair!) that just took my soul (and I gave my soul for:eek: them ) I love Parker Skeet guns and I have a few but I sold most of my collection to pay for the above mentioned.

They are difference is, I love both, but they are as separate as night and day.

[John Allen]

Kevin is totally correct in saying that American guns were built for utility first.We always have to remember that European guns had the protection of a proof law.They could build a gun to a specific load without worrying about liability.American builders had to look at their gun and say "what is the worst thing some fool can do to this?"and build accordingly.That is why our guns tend to be heavier and more durable.Also,the term "Best" tends to apply to guns built for driven shooting.If you look at English waterfowl guns they are close to our "field" grade guns.

[Bill Mullins]

Sporting Classics magazine, May/June, 1984, Firearms Column by Herschel Chadick, page 15, Quote: "If I am reincarnated and couldn't be a Parker, I'd want to be a Purdey!"
😊

[Ken Hill]

Is their such a thing as a “value” best? I realize value here is subjective obviously, but are their deals to be had? Outside of the big names?

Kirk,

Don Amos worked for several years researching English gun values. The values were based on auction results. He built a spreadsheet based on his research. He developed three ways to determine the price for a British gun:

1) Brand Value: how does the market value the name on the gun. A top tier maker (Purdey, Wooward, H&H, and Boss) bring a higher price than a 2nd or 3rd tier maker base on the two other factors being equal.

2) Original Value: looks at how well the gun was originally made. This is usually determined by the action features, engraving, wood figure, fit/finish, and to some edgy the original cost.

3) Current Condition: there are 7 levels to judge a gun on its current state of original finish and repairs.

A second or third tier maker could make a comparable gun to a first tier maker with the same features. On the used market today (and back in the day) would be cheaper based on brand value.

Ken

[John Campbell]

Quote: "If I am reincarnated and couldn't be a Parker, I'd want to be a Purdey!"
😊

If I were reincarnated as an English double, and couldn't be a Boss, I'd be a Purdey.

[Rich Anderson]

I'd come back as either a Purdey or a Boss but only as a small bore hammer gun. Why? Because they are just plain cool:whistle:

[William Davis]

If I owned DuBray’s 3 barrel set, Parker Hammer Pigeon Gun that’s going up for Auction at Morphy’s , would NOT trade it for a matched pair of English “best” Bentley Coupe and a tall blonde English girl to drive me from Grouse shoot to Grouse shoot.

William

[Dean Romig]

I’ve got to agree with you William. In my opinion that particular gun is the epitome, the Apex, of collectible Parker guns. Is there one Parker with a richer provenance? I don’t believe so.
I would rather have that gun than the 16 gauge Invincible.

And to keep on track with this thread, I would rather own the duBray AA Pigeon gun than ANY European Best in existence.





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[Frank Srebro]

And there was this gent I shot with on occasion years ago who was so proud of his London Best vintage hammer double. He struggled with the extra long LOP on quicker presentations but wouldn't think of cutting the butt to something more useful. Then one day while shooting he broke a hammer and it was a sight to see the squad on all fours searching for the piece in the fall leaves. His gun was out of commission for almost two years while sent for repairs, and he told me later the firm also charged him a ransom for something vague like "cleaning and adjustments". He shot the Best once in a while after that and last I knew it was mostly a white glove/safe queen and now I see him shooting with higher grade American doubles.

Yep, just one data point, and just sayin …...

[Jay Gardner]

Is their such a thing as a “value” best? I realize value here is subjective obviously, but are their deals to be had? Outside of the big names?

This is where it gets challenging. There were dozens of manufacturers in GB at the turn of the last century and it wasn't just the big names that were producing fine shotguns and sorting through them is challenging. The class of sport who could afford to have a pair of guns build by Boss, Woodward, Holland, and Purdey might not want to spend that kind of money for a guest or family member so they often went to smaller houses for those guns which were nearly equal in quality but lacked the name. Trick is to find out who all of the manufacturers are and where they fit in the pecking order. There are several makes of guns that you could lay in a table next to a "Best" gun and not be able to tell the difference in fit or finish, the difference is in the details: chopper lump vs dovetail barrels, who made the locks, how is fine is woodwork between the locks. Most of those details don't really matter in terms of functionality.

The single most important determination of value is condition and that's where you are going to have to be able to call on an expert for assurances. Re-paring a buggered up or worn out English gun can easily cost more than the gun is worth. Proceed with caution.

JDG

[John Campbell]

If I owned DuBray’s 3 barrel set, Parker Hammer Pigeon Gun that’s going up for Auction at Morphy’s , would NOT trade it for a matched pair of English “best” Bentley Coupe and a tall blonde English girl to drive me from Grouse shoot to Grouse shoot.

William

On the other hand, a matched pair of Boss guns, a Bentley coupe, a tall British blonde, and a round of Highland shoots sound quite rewarding to me.

I'd make the sacrifice. :)

[Mills Morrison]

I had wondered why someone would pay $100,000 - $200,000 for a custom Purdey, particularly when some used ones are available at auction for much less. Then I saw a matched pair that a friend of mine bought for himself when he sold out his Wendy's franchises. Question was answered. Truly beautiful guns.

[Rich Anderson]

My three English hammer guns are a Stephan Grant 12, J Venebles & Son 16 and a Boss 20. The Boss is a thumb break which broke and my local smith was able to micro weld it back up. The Venebles had a trigger break while shooting sporting clays. Fortunately the piece was easily recovered and the trigger repaired. None of these repairs was time consuming or costly. I've lost a hammer screw on my grade 3 Parker so any gun can break or be put out of commission for a period of time.

[Bill Murphy]

It's all in the individual gun. There are great buys in both categories. Watch your step and keep your eyes on the ball. Really good buys are few and far apart.

[Tom Flanigan]

There is no comparison between a London Best and any American gun. I have owned both and the feel of a London best was never achieved by a American gun. My only complaint is with a 28 bore H&H I own. The single trigger failed a couple of time and required fixing. I don't like single triggers and the person who originally ordered this gun was probably an American. It also had a beavertail forearm which, in my opinion, doesn't belong on any game gun, especially a 28 bore. I converted the beavertail to a splinter forend before I took the first shot with the gun.

[Ken Hill]

Tom,

I’m a sucker for a side lever gun. I’ve seen a H&H royal with a side lever and was really interested until I saw the single trigger. English guns need 2 triggers. Heck, I think Parkers need 2 triggers.

Ken

[Rich Anderson]

I have two Purdey's and a H&H all with single trigger:eek::nono: I have a smith on the lookout for a set of double triggers:whistle:

[Tom Flanigan]

I was going to send my bore back to H&R to do the single trigger conversion to double triggers. But the guy in their NY city store couldn't tell me how much it would cost and the timeframe, so I decided to defer it. But I will send it back at some point. A H&H side by side looks all wrong with a single trigger. Damn Americans, many don't know how a London Best should be configured. A single trigger and beavertail on a London best????? The work of the devil himself!

[Dean Romig]

Damn Americans!

Excuse me?....Really?....in any context!






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[Tom Flanigan]

No offense to fellow Americans, but when I see a London best gun with a horrid beavertail and single trigger I know that few self respecting Englishmen would order a gun that way. I am half English on my mother's side so maybe that's why I find it so hard to take. I am a proud American, my family lived in your town of Andover from 1645 to 1826 when they moved to Wilmington, Vermont. Farnum road is named after my grandfather (8). So no offense, but geez, I like to see London best guns in their native attire.

[Bill Murphy]

I have a lovely Prussian Lindner hammer pigeon gun with Infallible trigger and beavertail forend. The owner, from Crumpton, Maryland on the Eastern Shore, shot this gun in pigeon and trap competition into the 1920s.

[Dean Romig]

I am a proud American, my family lived in your town of Andover from 1645 to 1826 when they moved to Wilmington, Vermont.


Somehow they escaped the witch trials of 1692-93 where more people in Andover were accused, sent to Salem, tried and put to death than residents of Salem, else you might not be with us today.

I have a cute little 28 gauge DHE with an original beavertail that I find preferable in the uplands to a splinter when wearing gloves.





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[Tom Flanigan]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;255033]Somehow they escaped the witch trials of 1692-93 where more people in Andover were accused, sent to Salem, tried and put to death than residents of Salem, else you might not be with us today.

I have a cute little 28 gauge DHE with an original beavertail that I find preferable in the uplands to a splinter when wearing gloves.



My comments are a bit over the top and tongue in cheek. But I hate to see a beavertail and single trigger on a London Best gun. It looks unnatural. I never did like them on a field Parker, but to each his own.

As far as the witch trials, my grandfather, Ralph Farnum Jr, was a grand juryman for the beginning of the hearings in 1692, but died before rendering service. Ralph III and his brother John were summoned on July 30, 1692 to appear as witnesses against Martha Carrier of Andover who was tried for witchcraft and who was hanged August 19, 1692. I have a record of their testimony and the back story passed down through the family and the text of a period letter written by a cousin describing the impact on the family. It is fascinating and not what you would expect.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

The DuBray gun certainly has the potential to fetch a handsome sum, Like Dean says I do not know of any other High grade Parker with the associated provenance as of this date. This gun will be watched by many, some bidders and others just wondering what it will go for. Morphys has done a good job marketing the piece as should be. Gary

[Dean Romig]

To be clear, Morphy’s had nothing to do with the Parker Pages article other than to very kindly provide pictures when asked.






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[Bill Murphy]

Hardly anyone would give the Dubray name the time of day except for the efforts of Ed M.

[Dean Romig]

Hardly anyone would give the Dubray name the time of day except for the efforts of Ed M.


There are some who may argue that point Bill, but I'm not one of them. In fact, I alluded to your point in the PP article.






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[todd allen]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;255033]Somehow they escaped the witch trials of 1692-93 where more people in Andover were accused, sent to Salem, tried and put to death than residents of Salem, else you might not be with us today.

I have a cute little 28 gauge DHE with an original beavertail that I find preferable in the uplands to a splinter when wearing gloves.



My comments are a bit over the top and tongue in cheek. But I hate to see a beavertail and single trigger on a London Best gun. It looks unnatural. I never did like them on a field Parker, but to each his own.

As far as the witch trials, my grandfather, Ralph Farnum Jr, was a grand juryman for the beginning of the hearings in 1692, but died before rendering service. Ralph III and his brother John were summoned on July 30, 1692 to appear as witnesses against Martha Carrier of Andover who was tried for witchcraft and who was hanged August 19, 1692. I have a record of their testimony and the back story passed down through the family and the text of a period letter written by a cousin describing the impact on the family. It is fascinating and not what you would expect.
I would love to read the text of letter. Maybe you could post it over on the "Off Topic forum.

[Buddy Harrison]

How old was your grandfather when he died. Had to be at least 150. Ha!

[Daniel G Rainey]

Read " Lock, Stock, & Barrel " by Cyril Adams & Robert Braden

[Eric Eis]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;255033]Somehow they escaped the witch trials of 1692-93 where more people in Andover were accused, sent to Salem, tried and put to death than residents of Salem, else you might not be with us today.

I have a cute little 28 gauge DHE with an original beavertail that I find preferable in the uplands to a splinter when wearing gloves.



My comments are a bit over the top and tongue in cheek. But I hate to see a beavertail and single trigger on a London Best gun. It looks unnatural. I never did like them on a field Parker, but to each his own.

As far as the witch trials, my grandfather, Ralph Farnum Jr, was a grand juryman for the beginning of the hearings in 1692, but died before rendering service. Ralph III and his brother John were summoned on July 30, 1692 to appear as witnesses against Martha Carrier of Andover who was tried for witchcraft and who was hanged August 19, 1692. I have a record of their testimony and the back story passed down through the family and the text of a period letter written by a cousin describing the impact on the family. It is fascinating and not what you would expect.

Yeah, Tom, it is a bit over the top what you said, I have a H&H 16 made in the 30's that has a single trigger, oh and it was ordered by an Englishman , I have a beautiful H&H 20 that was ordered by an American which has double triggers, so.....

[Kenny Graft]

Back in the early 80-s in the bar districk when I was out for a TIME.....I found three young college gals. I stayed out front of things, It did not take me long to choose my target. The choices were all good. A 5-5 dark haired country girl cut as a button with a big smile and little dimpled cheeks. A skinny red head with fire in here eyes and a rack that was hard to miss! And finally the one I liked....she was fine, curvy little blonde. I could tell she was smart and kept her head above the crowd. As I watched and planed I saw her blow off several young dudes like a james bond girl would! Here is my chance...her two friends were off mingling so I sat down next to her....she had this lovely English accent, stunning blue eyes, long legs and a low cut short red dress, not cheep in anyway. Time stopped for a moment as we talked. Her friends returned we all chatted and had a few. It was a good time. I left with that cute little country girl...(-: A fella has to know his limitations!!! But I always wonder about that curvy little blond from England. SXS Ohio

[Bill Murphy]

Do you have any contact information on the other two girls? What about pictures?

[Randy G Roberts]

Do you have any contact information on the other two girls? What about pictures?

You will eventually require dimensions as well don't you think Bill ?

[Tom Flanigan]

[QUOTE=Tom Flanigan;255044]
I would love to read the text of letter. Maybe you could post it over on the "Off Topic forum.

I will post the text of the letter in the Off Topic forum after Christmas. My grandfather (10?) and his family went through hardship as a result of the two trials in which he testified against Martha Carrier (who was hung) and Hopestill Tylers wife who was acquitted. The family letter describes him as being "dragged" before the court. But family history indicates another reason for his testimony. I do believe that he did think Martha Carrier was a true witch based on her interactions with him, which were not pleasant. I'll provide more information in the Off Topic forum.

[Bill Murphy]

My ex, probably on her mother's side, is a direct descendent of Sarah Hale. I have no serious information about this relationship. The family were sometime residents of Lexington, Salem, and later, Rockport. All gone now, including my ex. I don't need dimensions on those three girls. After forty years, I think I can imagine them.

[Dean Romig]

My ex, probably on her mother's side, is a direct descendent of Sarah Hale. I have no serious information about this relationship. The family were sometime residents of Lexington, Salem, and later, Rockport. All gone now, including my ex. I don't need dimensions on those three girls. After forty years, I think I can imagine them.


A little "Bubble bubble toil and trouble" eh Bill?





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[Bill Zachow]

I wonder how many of the “best” gun manufacturers in England have a few hi tech CNC milling machines hidden in a back room in their shops. I would be willing to bet, ALL.

[John Dallas]

When I toured the Holland and Holland factory about 10 years ago, they said that they had most of their frame designs on CNC machining, however they had several other designs, which they chose not to put on CNC machining, because they did not want to lose the capability of doing unique frames by hand.

[Jay Gardner]

I wonder how many of the “best” gun manufacturers in England have a few hi tech CNC milling machines hidden in a back room in their shops. I would be willing to bet, ALL.

https://youtu.be/qUXoNUzAyvk

[edgarspencer]

I could watch that all day. Unfortunately, there's snow to be moved.

[John Dallas]

I was given a 4 hour tour of the H&H factory by the plant manager about 10 years ago. He said that most of their different frames (shotgun, (SxS and O/U) rifle (Double and bolt) were done by CNC machining, but that they kept several frames to be done by hand, - not that they couldn't program them for CNC, but they didn't want to lose the talent of doing it by hand,so presumably there will be a young apprentice who will learn to do it the old way one of these days. Parts of the plant still looked like the 1800's

[William Davis]

Nice,video, See how the barrels are wired together & bent with wedges to regulate ? Thats why it’s so difficult to open chokes after a good double is regulated & the ribs are laid. Nothings straight to guide the reamer when opening, the reason you see out of round muzzles. If all open jobs were patterned to check regulation you would see many with different point of impact.

It’s not impossible to open chokes. but simply running a reamer in the bore piloted close to the choke taper is a good way to ruin a nice SXS . Factory single barrel gun it’s not a difficult job. All alike and straight.

William

[Jay Gardner]

If you add up all of the guns made by those producing “best” guns between 1900 and 1940 I would imagine the total would be a small fraction of the guns produced by Parker over the same period. The majority of Best guns were bespoke, not production guns. They were made with considerable attention to detail, inside and out.

[John Allen]

The "Best" guns were hand built for aristocrats,and are works of gunmaking art.The Parkers were built for American sportsmen of all economic classes,and from the Trojan to the Invincible they are a testament to what makes America great.

[Ken Hill]

Mr. Vicknair did another comparison of English Best with Parker https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2019/05/best-vs-production-debate-apparently.html. The comparison is hand-made vs. machine made.

Ken

[edgarspencer]

If you can finish reading it without stopping to breath, or take an Ativan, you’ll probably accept what he’s saying, albeit with a hint of a chip on his shoulder.
All of his pomposity aside, we can love our ‘home made’ guns as much as we want, and deservedly so.
I worked part time, for 16 years, in a steel research foundry in England. In total, I guess I was there about 4 months each year. I learned, very early on, to love proper ale, and spent more than my share of time in the local. A very friendly bartender/ sheep farmer told me once “ Once you get beyond our ‘not invented here’ attitude, we’re not a bad bunch of blokes”

[Russell E. Cleary]

Mr. Vicknair’s piece does seem plausible and well-argued. He even dispenses with the recurring foul language.

I know my station; and it looks like it’s with the “machine-made” gun.

[Jay Gardner]

There were actually a number of English makers producing best quality guns between 1890 and WWl, and for those who want that quality without paying the premium associated with names like Purdey, Boss, Holland, etc. there are guns available at reasonable prices, it just takes research, patience, and a little luck.

https://i.imgur.com/aonYSqL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Q1TjMkp.jpg

[Milton C Starr]

Mr. Vicknair’s piece does seem plausible and well-argued. He even dispenses the recurring foul language.

I know my station; and it looks like it’s with the “machine-made” gun.

Seems theres no certain answer on what a best quality even is .
Ive seen them say well its a best quality name but not a best quality gun because it has to be a best quality grade :rolleyes: .

Ive always just went by the common line of thought of if its a London made double then its a Best .

[Dean Romig]

“Best” is then just a term describing a manufacturing process, and a stubborn one at that. Holding on to these old traditions in manufacturing is fine but modern stockholders sure wouldn’t appreciate it very much.
Like Dewey says, mass production was of utmost importance to American manufacturers and I agree with him that the Parker Gun is at the top of that heap.

As for me, I’ll take ‘second best’ any day. Never had a desire to own a “best” gun even if I could afford it. I guess this is because I’m an American and take great pride in all of my ‘second best’ Parkers.

There are automobiles that have been made entirely by hand, but damn few of them... and the question begged is “Why?” Pride in the fact that they could do it I guess. But who can afford to own one... Jay Leno? I live in the same town Jay was raised in and I can assure you it’s not “in the water.” Even Jay wouldn’t enjoy driving it - he’d be too afraid of damaging it to really enjoy using it. I’d be afraid of the same thing if I owned “best” guns.




.

[edgarspencer]

The term may have come from describing their products something like Good, Better, Best. They could have as easily said 1, 2, 3, or V,P,G, etc.
London makers presented themselves as though the makers in other large cities had lesser skilled workers. Birmingham had a wealth of skilled labor, and a William Ford sidelock, ordered by someone who asked for William Ford's best work, got a gun every bit as nice as a Royal Grade. Polished, gilded and pierced bridles were not limited to any specific geographic area.
I remember many nice English side by sides of my dad's, and my mother's cousins, in Scotland had a half dozen in a rack on the bootroom wall. They were all beautiful, because they were, except for barrel length, and maybe bore, the same. It almost appeared as every gun was engraved by the same hand. Except for guys like Ken Hunt, most of the engravers seems to stick to fine scroll work.
Apart from Parker being made in my Dad's hometown, the endless variety, and relative affordability are only a few of the reasons I love them so much.

[John Campbell]

There are automobiles that have been made entirely by hand, but damn few of them... and the question begged is “Why?” Pride in the fact that they could do it I guess. But who can afford to own one... Jay Leno? I live in the same town Jay was raised in and I can assure you it’s not “in the water.” Even Jay wouldn’t enjoy driving it - he’d be too afraid of damaging it to really enjoy using it. I’d be afraid of the same thing if I owned “best” guns.
.

I can see Dean's point. But... even a "Best" Parker, such as a AHE, is imbued with a dimension of human craft and art that a Trojan is virtually devoid of. Both can take game. But, there is something about the human hand and eye that translates into clear intrinsic value, one over the other.

A Purdey, Boss or Holland & Holland has it. Because they are crafted by skilled artisans... not machines. The same is true of a Rolls Royce or Morgan.

That does not mean that fine guns or fine cars are not meant to be used. The General Manager of Purdey's once told me that every gun they make is intended for use. And it was rather pointless not to use them.

What's more, I once knew a car collector in LA who had a fantastic garage full of wonderful collector cars. And he tasked one of his curators to take each car out every so often and drive the bejesus out of it, because that was what they were for. I wish I were that guy.

Still, I shoot my Purdey, Holland & Holland or Grant on a regular basis. Because that's what they're for.

[Ken Hill]

Jay,

A very nice Hussey! Is she yours?

Ken

[Jay Gardner]

Jay,

A very nice Hussey! Is she yours?

Ken

Yes, it’s mine.