And I bought a small bore....

[Bill Holcombe]

I have been an advocate of the greatness of the 12 gauge since I was strangely enough 12 years old. I greatly preferred shooting my dads 870 12 gauge to either his A5 20s or the single shot stevens hammer 20 gauge my brother and I shared. It just seemed to fit me better, and I don't care how much I mess with springs or rings on those dang humpbacks they kick like a mule.

Anyway through my days of hunting or 4-H skeet shooting with either the 870 or later my own 1100, or later my Browining superposeds or parkers, I just really loved the feel, size weight, and sound of a 12 going off. It has always just felt right.

Well anyway, recently I completed a deal with another member involving the sale/trade of my pointer grade, the last superposed I own. As part of the exchange to go along with the cash he sent me a decent condition 16 ga Parker VH. It is in nice condition, the blueing a little worn, it has a vented Ithaca pad, the wood possibly is refinished, I haven't looked at it enough to decide, I knew it was more a shooter going in.

It is on a 1 frame.....but I have to say, compared to my 1 frame 12s it feels like I am swinging a Red Rider BB gun with Ralphie. I am not saying it is whippy or anything, just that the difference going from my 7lb + trojan I had with me when I picked it up to this 16 is rather shocking.

Haven't had the pleasure of patterning it yet, but it swings fast and easy. Pics below......For those who know me better, no I am not going to be buying any dang 20 or 28 and certainly no useless 410. :):):):):)

[Mills Morrison]

Good job! I am a big fan of 12 gauges myself , but like the small bores too.

[Todd Poer]

Do you know the chokes on it yet. BTw bartering a gun and cash to boot, you might be on the upside. I love my VH 16 even though its choked about imp modified to full. Its a on 1 frame and it is light a lot of fun to shoot.

All it takes is one. Give a moose a muffin.

[Bill Holcombe]

.003 and .010 arr the chokes according to the seller.

[Mills Morrison]

I actually got my GH 16 out of the case this weekend to admire it. It is on a 1 frame too.

[todd allen]

I will be getting my 0 frame 16 bore hammer gun out, in the next week or so, to cancel some dove flights.

[Brian Dudley]

Bill, to confirm your thoughts, the wood IS refinished. And checkering recut.

[Chad Hefflinger]

It’s addictive, I have a few 16’s (1 and 0 frames) and a 20. I want to get a 10 and another 12 in a DH so I can get my focus back on zero frame 16’s and 20’s. I shot my new to me 16 zero frame GH on 5 stand last week, and it truly felt like a magic wand in my hands. I can’t wait to find the next one.

[Todd Poer]

.003 and .010 arr the chokes according to the seller.

Uh Oh. and so it begins. Dang, you may not ever miss with that gun. What is that between cylinder and skeet 1 on one barrel and improved cylinder in the other. That my actually be a rendition of the perfect upland gun with a 1 ounce load.

[Bill Holcombe]

According to a chart online I saw it is basically border of skeet 1 and right on skeet 2 in the other. Won't need spreaders for it.

[Todd Poer]

As I understand it and no expert on it, but based on work of a lot of others, the shot column on a 1 ounce load in 16 gauge is optimal for producing less shot stringing issues. Meaning with that gun almost all that 1 ounce load is going to get to that target or bird at about the same time and might throw a pattern that looks like a large and extra large pizza pan. I think that is what makes a perfect upland gun.

Regurgitating what I have read and you and others probably well know, if shot columns in shells are not squared they have a tendency to string and get flyers and stringing can be over a span of 4 to 5 feet or up to 8 to 10 feet depending how far down range. If that is the case in say a one ounce load that is stringing since it was in a 20 gauge instead of a 16 gauge then it is the same as only shooting a half to three quarter ounce load at the target down range. This really makes a difference in pass shooting or crossing targets, but think it really noticeable in the success rate even on going away shots.

With that gun out to about 30 yards and if you point anywhere near close proximity you may be hard pressed to ever miss a shot. BTW there is a reason diminutive Annie Oakley shot a pair of 16 gauges and setting a record hitting close to 4,800 targets out of 5,000 at about a 96% score rate over a 9 hour period. Performance and recoil management.

Enjoy that new to you gun. BTW was saying this the other day to Tom Flanigan. I think a 1 frame Parker 16 gauge using a 1 ounce load is the perfect congress of an upland gun, especially if a gun is choked like yours.

[Randy G Roberts]

Sure Bill and I'm only going to smoke cigars on the weekends and special occasions. This could just be the beginning for you. :corn::)

[QUOTE=For those who know me better, no I am not going to be buying any dang 20 or 28 and certainly no useless 410. :):):):):)[/QUOTE]

[Daryl Corona]

I make no bones about it, I love smallbore (20 and 28ga.) shotguns.
This sums it up pretty good as I see it and Brister's book is one that should be read by anyone who likes scatterguns.:)









"There are shooters who definitely can put more birds into the sack with a lightweight 20 or 28 gauge than they can with a heavier 12. But this not due to gauge but to balance, weight, gun fit, recoil, speed of swing – or maybe how much the man likes his gun."

“Shotgunning – The Art and the Science” by Bob Brister.

[Todd Poer]

"There are shooters who definitely can put more birds into the sack with a lightweight 20 or 28 gauge than they can with a heavier 12. But this not due to gauge but to balance, weight, gun fit, recoil, speed of swing – or maybe how much the man likes his gun."

“Shotgunning – The Art and the Science” by Bob Brister.

Well........ There is that.

Guilty as charged. Discussing which gauge and load is the best is the same as saying which caliber and grain bullet combination is the best. Ultimately just a matter of perspective and what you like, many effective alternatives. Now I have shot some guns that did not like the look of very well at all like a Beretta SXS. The profile of gun is great but throw it to shoulder it looked like I was on top of a hill looking down a ski jump. Once I blocked that out and just focused on target I was hitting everything but it just felt icky as compared to shooting a Parker.

[Mills Morrison]

A cousin of mine and a friend of ours got married. Both from local hunting families. Families weren't enemies, but were not really friends either. My parents have the newlyweds and the parents over for dinner to break the ice.

My cousin (the father of the bride) starts off that he has started shooting 28 gauges on doves in Argentina and goes on to expound on the good qualities of 28 gauges and why they are better than 20's, on and on.

Father of the groom is silent. They finally ask him "and what do you shoot?"

"12 gauge" he says

Silence and then, "well why is that?"

"When I shoot at something, I want to kill it"

[Todd Poer]

Honest officer, all I said is that any man that shoots a 12 gauge has an inferiority complex...

Gotta love Savannah dinner party conversations.

[Bill Holcombe]

"12 gauge" he says

Silence and then, "well why is that?"

"When I shoot at something, I want to kill it"

I don't know that I would go that far Mills for me anyway, I just like the heft and the feel of a 12....heck I like the feel of a 10 and if they weren't so blasted expensive I might postulate getting an 8. Its like pistol shooting, I prefer a 45 to a 38 special or a 9mm any day of the week. .357 is fun too. I just don't get anything out of shooting the smaller calibers.

Now, strangely on rifles it is a bit the opposite. I don't see any need to use anything bigger than my .257 roberts. It'll kill an elk and I don't hunt any bigger than that.

[Rich Anderson]

Bill congrats on a nice upland gun. I once had a 16 choked .004 and .010 and it was death on grouse and pheasants. Thats one I wish I had back. I'm a big fan of small bores as well and love the 20's and 28's. If you ever get a 28 there will be no going back and IMHO the 410 isn't useless. I enjoy mine on a clays course and for quail and the odd woodcock flight if you can hit one.

I like the 257 Roberts as well but have shot deer with my 416 Taylor:)

[Russ Jackson]

Bill ,Congrats on a nice small bore ,my guess is you are going to Love It ! I have to say it probably won't be your last ,this is a very slippery slope you have started down ! I have to agree with Rich on the 410 I wouldn't say totally useless , I always enjoy mine when I carry it and these two fellas ended up dead enough :rotf: ! I carry mine once a year on a Preserve hunt as well as my Buddy carries his Fox 410 and when we get good solid points and close shooting they are deadly !

[Tom Flanigan]

I don't know that I would go that far Mills for me anyway, I just like the heft and the feel of a 12....heck I like the feel of a 10 and if they weren't so blasted expensive I might postulate getting an 8. Its like pistol shooting, I prefer a 45 to a 38 special or a 9mm any day of the week. .357 is fun too. I just don't get anything out of shooting the smaller calibers.

Now, strangely on rifles it is a bit the opposite. I don't see any need to use anything bigger than my .257 roberts. It'll kill an elk and I don't hunt any bigger than that.

The old .257 Roberts is a great caliber. I've never owned one, but it was one of Jack O'Connors favorite cartridges. It's what his wife shot. Many people think you need a cannon for large game. It's not true. The problem with the 7mm magnum and other calibers is that they kick like hell. As a result, people don't spend enough time shooting them and becoming competent shots. I have taken many moose with the .270 and 130 grain handloads and never had one go more than 80 yards or so.

[Tom Flanigan]

Sorry to get a bit off track Bill. The checkering on your gun appears to be competently done. The mullered border is missing but you can probably live with that. If you can't, I can cut them in for you gratis.

[Rich Anderson]

Tom Elanor O' Conner favored her 7X57 for most of her hunting and took many North American as well as African animals with it.

[Tom Flanigan]

Yes, you are right. Thanks for jogging my old brain. She did use a 7X57, not a .257 Roberts. However, Jack sung the praises of the .257 Roberts. I always wanted to own one but never found one in pre 64 Model 70 Winchester. That all I owned. On another subject, I will be living in Pawling after Oct. 1st. Then I will be able to unpack everything and will send you a few boxes of vintage Eley 2" #6's for your Purdey. They are great looking shells with the orange paper case and rolled crimps. After sending yours, I'll still have plenty left in the 20 box case. Those shells were bought for a Purdey and some should be shot with a Purdey. I won't shoot mine. They are a keepsake from a great man.

[Rich Anderson]

I recently sold two Pre64 M70's in 257 Roberts along with a bunch of others. My current Bob is custom built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action. I like the oldies but goodies when it comes to rifle cartridges like a 250/3000, 300 Savage the 7X57 the Roberts and the 300 H&H is hard to beat.

Thanks again for the shells, I'm looking forward to introducing them to some pheasants.

[Mills Morrison]

The 12 gauge anecdote is a funny story, but there is a hidden lesson there. I shoot 16, 20 and 28 gauges for quail partly because they are not guaranteed to kill anything they hit. Quail hunting, in particular, is dangerous and accidents happen to the most experienced of hunters. I know a few people who are alive today because their quail hunting partners were shooting a small bore. Small bores just feel right for upland hunting anyway

[Todd Poer]

Btw what gauge was Dick Cheney shooting.

I have and hope never to be part of hunting accident like that. I know you read about it all the time though and don't think something like that could happen to you. I guess that is like not worrying about getting struck by lightening or getting snake bit and not taking precautions. No one ever thinks it could happen to them until it does. Man you can't hear or be reminded of a safety discussion enough or its protocols. When upland hunting since lefty I was always take right side of points and make sure the right handed shooter takes left. Standard rule is if a bird comes back at us and between us or down the middle, that bird has solved the riddle and we let it go and don't think twice. Too risky and not worth it, plus all the other points we have heard.

Frustration is chasing grouse in rough hills of Tennessee all day and not see a bird until near the end of the hunt. Then, on a perfect point have it flush back in between both of you like a bat out of hell. You know old man grouse defeated you that day especially when you see him climb high into the sky like a pheasant and settle in on top of a ridge protected by a cliff face(fort grouse). Tried chasing em up their once and swore those dang birds were kicking rocks down at us.

Mills I think many probably agree and have agreed in the past with your statement about 16 to 28 gauge guns for upland hunting. A light 12 is good as well but there is something about the 16, 20, and 28 that match up right for the upland style setting. I know folks love their 410's but I am handicapped enough and I think a 410 gives game and targets too much of an advantage over me.

[Mills Morrison]

I have fortunately never been present when a hunting accident occurs . I have made mistakes at times and fortunately no one has ever been hurt. You just have to be careful all the time. Preaching to the choir, I know . . .

I picked up a fixer upper VH 20 earlier this year and hope to add some more small bores in 2019. That is going to be my New Year's resolution

[Greg Baehman]

Btw what gauge was Dick Cheney shooting.


According to CNN, it was a 28-ga.

[James L. Martin]

I seem to recall it was a 28ga Perazzi MX28

[Randy G Roberts]

Mills I do not recall ever hearing of a New Years resolution to add more small bores or to even add more guns of any type. It usually goes the other way. I knew the first time we met you were alright :)

[Bruce Day]

Corrrct. 28ga Perazzi. But he was hit in the side of the neck and upper shoulder from about only 25 yards away when a quail flew between two hunters and Cheney was not in his usual position.

Two military doctors were following close behind in an ATV with an emergency medical kit and a helicopter was on alert back at the ranch.

Information is from one of the guides.

When we go quail hunting with several people we always stress that quail will often fly low beteen hunters or dogs and to just hold fire until the bird is well clear. I’ve never had anybody shot despite numerous opportunities for accidents.

[Todd Poer]

Yep down the middle and the bird has solved the riddle. As long as swinging to outside only and your flanks are clear then yep it should be okay to safely shoot those backstabbing birds.

Bruce I think I remember you mentioning you knew one of the guides on the infamous Cheney hunt. Mmmph. 28 gauge at 25 yards and only upper shoulder and neck, tight pattern must of been a modified choke. Bad Scene.

[Mills Morrison]

Mills I do not recall ever hearing of a New Years resolution to add more small bores or to even add more guns of any type. It usually goes the other way. I knew the first time we met you were alright :)


Randy, My resolution this year was a moratorium on new guns. I fell off the wagon big time. Next year, I am going in whole hog