28 gauge slugs

[charlie cleveland]

seen a ad that listed 28 ga slugs for sale..they are made by brennke..i probably did not spell this right but it s close...i thought of you dean when i seen the ad...charlie

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Charlie - I'll have to look at those.





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[Tom Flanigan]

What would one use a 28 gauge slug on?

[Todd Poer]

What would one use a 28 gauge slug on?

I was going to ask the same thing. My only thought would be home defense. Light easy gun with light recoil and it would be deadly at close range. I think they say 28 gauge is equal to a 54 calibre in muzzle loading so I guess it could be a hot enough round for hunting if gun is accurate enough. For home defense would think it more powerful than a 45 and maybe a 44 magnum. I know there are limitations in some states that nothing less than 20 gauge for large game hunting and I can't think of any small game that I would hunt with a 28 ga slug.

I guess 28 gauge slug would be good if up close hog hunting. Ya'll got a hog problem up there. Btw if your using it for Bear hunting then you are way more man than me. Let go with both barrels and get ready to pull your Bowie knife.

[Dean Romig]

Oddly, .410 slug cartridges are far easier to find on the shelves of places like KTP and other larger sporting goids stores - I wonder what those would be good for??





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[Todd Poer]

Dean I can only think of home defense or last resort for bear protection. I think there are even some revolvers that are designed to shoot a 410 slug that I think has more umph than say a 45 or 44 magnum. I don't know the ballistics between all that but obviously someone has thought about it.

[Dean Romig]

A .410 for “last resort for bear protection” is probably the last choice on my list to carry in bear country.

As far as the 28 gauge slug discussion, I have always toyed with the idea of a 28 gauge Repro as a close range (certainly not for bean field applications) deer gun for still hunting or sitting on the ground or a tree stand.

It would certainly need to be target tested for accuracy at ranges out to say, effective bow ranges and not much more.






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[Todd Poer]

Yep I agree the 410 slug for bear protection would be for you right before that bear put you into the combined spin cycle/ meat grinder mode. I just did a quick look up of 44 mag vs a 410 slug, its not good for the anemic 410 slug application. I think a 410 slug puts out about 700 foot pounds and 44 mag is about 1100 at the muzzle. 410 would put a hurting on a normal man but may not stop an adrenalized 300 lbs defensive lineman. Now a 410 rifle round would be something different, that would put a whoopin on something.

Check you state regs on gauges for large game. All I know is that deer are dang tough sometimes. Shot one with a 20 gauge slug at 20 yards when hunting on an Army base and it ran off. Blood trailed it for an hour but lost it in some impenetrable thick cover. Went back to truck to grab some quick lunch and then drive over to other side of thicket to see if we could pick up any sign and found where someone had cleaned a deer. We heard no other close shots but was actually glad someone got it since we were not around immediately to claim it. After that always thought 20 gauge slug did not have enough knock down power on deer and never hunted deer with a 20 gauge again.

Maybe got proven wrong on that one many years later as well. Was hunting with a .30-06 with 180 grain bullet and shot a doe underneath my tree stand at 15 yards at dusk. As soon as I shot saw an explosion on the ground behind that deer and she spun 180 degrees where she came from but ran unphased looking 200 yards out of sight down a logging road. I thought I had missed it entirely but got down checked for sign and did not see a drop of blood anywhere close and trailed her path 25 yards with no sign but tore up ground cover and a few tracks but made my way to logging road which was easier walking to get where I had seen her last before it got to dark. Went to where thought had heard some faint sticks breaking and there she was.

Later when cleaning that deer the damage that 180 grain bullet did at that range was terrifying and I was just amazed at how far that deer ran looking completely unphased. Not to be grotesque but that bullet had completely disintegrated the heart. For the record before that I had harvested probably 20 deer with that same rifle and round and out to some good distances with the scope and those deer dropped like a bag of hammers. So to see one run off like after an up close shot had me startled and questioning if I hit it. Goes to show you, followup intensely after every shot.

[Dean Romig]

I shot 20 gauge slugs from a Parker DH with Titanic barrels choked IC/Lt.Mod at a target set at 15 yards. It was no surprise that the right barrel punched holes about 9” to the left of the bull and 8” low. The left barrel placed them almost a foot to the right and 10” low.

This gun patterned very nicely with RST 2 1/2” ammo with 7/8 oz. of #8 shot.

I have seen deer hit with 20 gauge slugs that went down like they were poleaxed....






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[Tom Flanigan]

My first deer, at fourteen years old, was taken at around 50 yards with my grandfathers DHE 28" bored modified and full. I did a lot of target work on paper with that gun before I used it on deer. It held a decent group with both barrels to 60 yards. I was surprised at how well that gun shot with slugs. I killed many other deer with that gun before I bought a Remington 870 with a slug barrel. My experience with the many deer I have killed with slugs is that unless you hit them in the chest straight on so the slug travels most of the length of the body, hit the spine or neck, most will run about 50 yards before piling up, assuming a lung or heart hit. Actually they travel a bit further with a heart hit for some reason. I have used many different guns with slugs including 12 bore, 16 bore and 20 bore. I find the results from all gauges to be about the same.

[Dave Noreen]

When our North American ammunition companies introduced rifled slugs circa 1938, they came in 12-, 16- & 20-gauges and .410-bore. Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11-48 in 28-gauge and .410-bore in 1953, and by their 1954 ammunition catalogs they had added a 28-gauge rifled slug load.

65462

65463

The 28-gauge rifled slug offering was dropped as they phased in their plastic hulls in 1961 and 1962.

[Tom Flanigan]

Another note from my experience…….a deer hit in the heart or lungs with any bullet or slugs is a dead deer quickly regardless of what you hit it with. Bullet placement is key. A deer can go a long way with an improper hit. But they die quickly and cleanly with a proper hit.

On the estate where I hunt, we often get crop damage permits. Even though it is shotgun only during the regular season, we were allowed to use any gun for crop damage deer. I liked to test different calibers on those deer and have used everything from a 22 magnum up to 30-06. We’d kill a bunch of deer and then call the game warden to pick them up. We weren’t allowed to keep them. I used a 22 magnum near the big house so I wouldn’t wake my friend’s wife with the shot. She liked to sleep to noon. I never took a shot over 50 yards and killed quite a few with lung shots. They only run about 50 yards with a lung shot. I am not recommending a 22 magnum on deer, but the use of a 22 magnum highlights my point that a deer shot in the lungs is a dead deer quickly regardless of what you use. My favorite deer load is a 243 with a 100 grain hand load, followed by a 270 with a 130 grain handload. Deer taken from fields with those loads usually dropped in their tracks. I have also killed moose in Saskatchewan with that 270 130 grain handload. A lung hit moose usually dies within 80 yards or so. I’ll say it again, bullet placement is everything.

[Todd Poer]

I am sure there have been lots of success using a 20 gauge slug. Mind justifies the heart though and when I shot that deer it was with a 20 gauge Ithaca pump. There was something not right with that modified choked barrel. It always patterned about a foot low and to the right with 8 shot and gave up on it for use as a bird gun. Thought okay will use it for deer it dang gun with slugs would hit dead center one foot high at 50 yards, baffling. It was pretty easy all you had to do at 50 yards and in was put the bead underneath deers chest and it would put a 3 shot group near bullseye at 30 yards. First time deer hunting with it and I knew I had hit that deer solid . Was pretty disgusted with that gun at that point and went traded it off the next day, so that was only experience with a 20 gauge slug. I think I still have a box of slugs that are 40 years old somewhere.

BTW Tom agree with you shot placement. That is why I was so perplexed with that 180 grain .30-06 shot at 15 yards. I was 20 feet up in the tree aiming down on a quartering away shot. On inspection I hit exactly were I aimed and it made a mess of the heart and lungs. I guess that load banging so close got her so adrenalized. Somehow it missed both shoulders. I have shot a few deer that were well hit and run 50 yards but never one like that and on flat ground. BTw the only rifle I have now is 270 WSM Browning A bolt. With a 130 grain bullet at 200 yards its like shooting a laser. There are guys that regularly take deer out West at 500+ yards. I have taken a few deer with it tight cover at 100 yards where all I had was window for a chest shot about pie plate wide. I don't take head shots.

[Richard Flanders]

Brenneke slugs are the best of all the slugs made. The square front profile cuts a hole vs wedging a hole as the classic pumpkin ball slugs do. I've shot all of my Michigan deer with 12 or 20ga Brennekes and they rarely go more than 3 steps with a lung shot. You collapse the lungs, they can't take a breath and down they go, and right now. I think that Brennekes in either a 28ga or a .410 would be a marvelous shorter range deer round. I had friends in high school that used their Stevens 310 .410's with slugs for deer and did just fine. For close in deer I'd take a Brenneke slug over any rifle that just goes through and through and makes a small hole.

[Tom Flanigan]

Todd....I have found that the best loading for the 30-06 for deer is the 150 grain bullet in my handloads. Many drop in their tracks kills on field deer with the 150 grain bullet. Larger bullets kill quickly also but I've never dropped a deer in its tracks with the 220 grain bullet or the 185 grain handloads I've used. The reason is that the 150 grain bullet is faster and expends all of its energy inside the deer often not going fully through and winds up under the expanding skin on the far side. The larger bullets expend a lot of energy on the outside after going all the way through. Relatively light high velocity bullets are key to drop in the track kills on deer size game as long as the bullets are 100 grains or larger. I've used the 110 grain accelerator bullets that were once loaded for the 30-06 for varmints. They kill quickly but I've never dropped a deer in their tracks with them for some reason. And they don't group that well on paper. However, the 100 grain 243 load results in a deer dropping in its tracks most of the time unlike the 80 grain handload in the 243 which doesn't always drop them in their tracks. I did a lot of experimenting with different loads and calibers on those crop damage deer. The 55 grain 22-250 and 222 doesn't drop them in their tracks either but all drop within 50 yards or so. If I was limited to one caliber for deer, it would be the 243 with 100 grain handloads. Recoil is minimal which helps at the bench and they kill quickly and cleanly. I consider it the perfect deer load. But all is contingent on a thoughtful shooter who picks and chooses his shots and is a competent shot. The reason why the 410 and 28 bore are not legal cartridges is that they can be problematic on marginal hits. In the hands of a buck fever shooter, they can be a problem.

[Todd Poer]

Brenneke has been around a long time. The only deer with slugs I have ever taken were with Brenneke and only used slugs because had to where hunted. They do seem to perform a little better than some slugs especially on accuracy.

[Tom Flanigan]

I've only killed one deer with a Brenneke slug so I can't speak to their effectiveness vs. a Foster type slug. I shot the deer in the neck with a 16 bore shell and of course it dropped in its tracks. I can't think of a reason why the Brenneke slug would be a better killer than a Foster slug, but I don't know since my only experience with Brenneke was on that one deer.

[Dean Romig]

In your own words Tom, “Shot placement is everything.”

Apples vs. oranges regarding a spine shot vs. a double lung shot.





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[Tom Flanigan]

Todd, I have found that each slug gun is a world unto itself and some are best with a certain brand of slug and not as good with another. Some shoot Remington best and some shoot other brands best. The only way to tell is to shoot at paper to find out which loading gives the best results for a particular gun. I have a friend whose gun shoots the Brennekes best and another whose gun sprays them. The same is true for rifles. I used to tailor my handloads for specific guns. Some liked Hornady bullets best and some liked other brands. As a rule, I have found that hot loads grouped less effectively than moderate loads. My handloads were always moderate loads as a result. We built a rifle range on the property and I used to spend a lot of time at the bench developing the best loads. IMR powder always worked best in my guns for some reason.

[Tom Flanigan]

In your own words Tom, “Shot placement is everything.”

Apples vs. oranges regarding a spine shot vs. a double lung shot.





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Spine shots are usually the result of shooting too high. A deer hit anywhere in the spine will drop in it tracks but may require a follow up shot to kill it depending on where in the spine it was hit. A spine shot along the back to the hindquarters requires a follow up shot. A spine shot above the lungs in the chest area or neck is a kill in its track hit. I have found that a deer hit in the heart with a low shot goes a bit farther than a lung shot deer for some reason. I never aim for the heart since if the shot goes low it will miss the deer. A shot at the lungs will hit the heart if it goes low.

[Todd Poer]

Tom I can attest to that about my experience with slugs. Key was having cyl or no more than an imp cyl choked barrels. I got the best performance out of Brenneke compared to Remington. Started with Remington and took 2 shots at a deer at 50 yards using an A5 that had a imp cyl. barrel. Gun did not have sites but had to take a fine bead and it was pretty accurate and could hit an 8 inch pie plate consistently. In heat of moment though since jumped him did not take a fine enough bead and both shots whizzed over him. After first one he stood there looking at me like your kidding, you got some nerve. Did not get a chance at a third. I needed a better system. (BTW I am pretty sure I was only person that shot at that deer and he got educated. He was a ghost deer and we all think he died of old age. We only saw him after the season a few times for about 7 years after that and he was a brute. If someone got him we never heard about it.)

Got a slug barrel with an 1100 and started with Remington slugs in it like I already had and figuring a Remington gun. Nope, they were all over the place, even quit sighting it because was not getting anything consistent. Thought it was me but had gun laying in stacked 50 pound feed bags so rest was rock solid. Frustrated went and got some Brennekes and tried it again and was able to get it sighted in at 50 yards and could hit within a 4 inch circle consistently. Never tried anything else after that.
Now I will have to say the Brenneke's that I shot had a fiber wad that was screwed into the base of the rifled lead slug. I don't know if they make them like that anymore.

[Tom Flanigan]

Another thing to keep in mind when sighting in a slug gun or a rifle for that matter, is that groups get very inconsistent if the barrel gets hot. I usually let my barrel cool a bit after each shot. A shotgun barrel is particularly susceptible to a hot barrel. You'll get decent groups till the barrel gets hot and then shots are all over the place. It's something to always keep in mind when sighting in.

[Todd Poer]

Tom have you ever heard or encountered muzzle whip and barrel harmonics. I know it is studied with rifle barrels and there has been some talk regarding it with shotgun barrels. Unofficially I have heard that is a supposed pro for O/U's over SxS's since O/U's supposedly stiffer and not subject to as much muzzle whip from POA to POI.

[Tom Flanigan]

I don't know much about muzzle whip or barrel harmonics. I just know what I experienced with my guns. Maybe both played a role in my results but I have no idea. I can tell you that rifles with "pencil" barrels on lightweight guns are problematic at the bench. They get hot after only a few shots and you have to be very careful to let them cool after each shot. Much more so than regular barrels. I've shot at the bench a lightweight Model 70 in 30-06 and a Ruger 77 in 243 with those barrels and they are a pain. I would never buy a gun with a pencil barrel. I was testing those guns for a buddy.

[CraigThompson]

The fellows in Russia that made one of my 10 gauge slug molds and the mold for 16's that I have also make a mold for the 28 and 410 .


Most of their designs are loosely based one the Lyman 12 and 20 Sabot Slug's IE they look like large air rifle pellets .


The Rooskie slug in my 10 gauge guns generally shoots very well , same can be said for the Lyman in several of my double 12's . The Rooskie slug shoots the best of any of them I've tried in a GH 16 Damascus barreled gun , that one shoots well out to 50 yards .


The smallest I've spent any time messing with is the 20 gauge and as I am sure you may have guessed I have the Lyman 20 gauge sabot mold . Anyway my little 20 VHE has done remarkably well with factory Brenneke both the old ones and the present manufacture , it's also done relatively well with factory Remington foster slugs . My home cast slugs do a bit better then the REM but not as well as the Brenneke .


I've not bothered with the 28 using Brenneke or casting as my only 28 at the moment is a like new Superposed skeet gun . But who knows what I might luck into one day . If I should ever cough up the cabbage for a VH 28 I'll most certainly work up a load with a home cast slug and plunk a deer . Well that is if I'm physically capable :rotf:

[Tom Flanigan]

Wow! That's hard core. I never cast my own slugs. Some Parkers shoot slugs remarkably well and others don't. My grandfather took a lot of deer with his DHE 28" modified and full long before I came along. I also took many deer with it in my teens. That was a 60 yard gun with both barrels, even with the standard bead. I once told a friend how good the gun was with slugs and he doubted it. He paced off 60 yards and stuck his license holder in a tree and told me to hit it. He was amazed when the back tag went flying off the tree shooting off hand. I aimed a bit high and a bit to the right because the right barrel crossed a bit to the left at 60 yards. I sure was proud of that old 1916 Parker.

[Todd Poer]

Tom, I take it you were never afraid of blowing the chokes out that gun with that solid chunk of lead.

[Tom Flanigan]

Lead will never blow out the chokes of any gun. Doesn't matter whether it's solid or shot. That gun has had a lot of slugs shot out of both barrels between my grandfather and I. It still throws beautiful modified and full patterns. The biggest deer I have ever killed with that gun was a massive 4 1/2 year old eight pointer, my first deer.

[Loren A Wilcox]

I have a Winchester Model 9410 that shots slugs just fine. My daughter used it for the Michigan youth hunt. She has gone to a 308 as she got older. But the 9410 handles a scope. Very good groups at 50 yards. Great for hunting in the swamps here in the north

[Tom Flanigan]

A 308 with 150 grain bullets is a fine deer gun. It has very similar ballistics to the 30-06 but in a shorter case. Actually, from a practical hunting perspective, there is no difference.


I do have to admit, that I am not in favor of shooting at deer with a 28 bore slug or 410 or even 222 or 22-250 class rifles. These are far better than the sub bore gauges, but still fall far short for average hunters. These, for deer, are expert's guns, and should not be used by the average deer hunter. I have humanly taken many deer with a 22 magnum, but this was under controlled conditions and I was very careful when choosing whether to shoot or not. It has to be a perfect situation with minimal chance that the hit will be marginal.

The average hunter can not be expected to adhere to these standards totally. This is exactly why the gauges and calibers are outlawed in many states including NY.

[Garry L Gordon]

I have ordered some of the 28 gauge slugs. I use a 28 when grouse hunting in Northern Minnesota. Several years ago while hunting we had a very large wolf saunter across an opening toward our 70 pound Gordon Setter. It was easily large enough to carry off our dog(!) I shouted at it and waved my hands (always worked on bears in the Virginia mountains) to no avail and then shot at it at about 40 yards with my cylinder bore (7 1/2s). It just looked at me. I managed to get closer to our dog, between it and the wolf, and it finally strolled off. My wife and I both bought handguns after that incident, but there are so many problems with trying to carry a handgun, a couple of 28 gauge slugs would be a better alternative.

[Todd Poer]

Now that might be the best idea yet I have heard justifying a 28 gauge slug.

I don't know the ballistics of a 28 gauge slug as compared to a handgun, but would think the muzzle velocity foot pounds would be higher and deliver a more potent shot than a hand gun, and probably be more accurate out to 20 yards.

My dad long time ago in Minnesota had the same thing happen to him with a wolf chasing his setter down to within 5 yards of him. Dog never even saw the wolf until my dad yelled at it. At first he thought is was a sheep or goat with that big long face running across a clear cut until it got closer. Luckily his setter was close but he had gun up ready to shoot but was able to call it off. Like your incident that wolf looked surprised that my dad was there and did not run off but just stopped and sort of walked off. I guess they are still protected. Get a couple of round over their head or get peppered a few times they may get wary of man. Most dangerous bears are the park bears that are protected and not afraid of man. I guess that goes with wolfs as well.

Several years later he also got separated from a dog up there we believe a wolf might of gotten him but can't be sure since dog disappeared. It had a chip in the ear and everything and he let every vet and animal control person in norther Minnesota know about it but never a heard a word back.

[Garry L Gordon]

Now that might be the best idea yet I have heard justifying a 28 gauge slug.

I don't know the ballistics of a 28 gauge slug as compared to a handgun, but would think the muzzle velocity foot pounds would be higher and deliver a more potent shot than a hand gun, and probably be more accurate out to 20 yards.

My dad long time ago in Minnesota had the same thing happen to him with a wolf chasing his setter down to within 5 yards of him. Dog never even saw the wolf until my dad yelled at it. At first he thought is was a sheep or goat with that big long face running across a clear cut until it got closer. Luckily his setter was close but he had gun up ready to shoot but was able to call it off. Like your incident that wolf looked surprised that my dad was there and did not run off but just stopped and sort of walked off. I guess they are still protected. Get a couple of round over their head or get peppered a few times they may get wary of man. Most dangerous bears are the park bears that are protected and not afraid of man. I guess that goes with wolfs as well.

Several years later he also got separated from a dog up there we believe a wolf might of gotten him but can't be sure since dog disappeared. It had a chip in the ear and everything and he let every vet and animal control person in norther Minnesota know about it but never a heard a word back.

Todd,

Minnesota established a wolf season a few years back, but the animal rights folks got to a federal judge and stopped it. I think there are more than a few deer hunters in the North Woods that will shoot wolves if given the chance, at least that's the sense I get when I talk with them. It's a bit intimidating to pull up to a covert and just as we are about to release the dogs, we hear two packs howling back and forth, both within several hundred yards. I did go with a 16 gauge for a while because I could find buck shot, but it's hard to leave the 28 in the truck.

I sure am sorry to learn about your Dad's dog. It's a scary prospect to have a lost dog in the North Woods with the number of wolves around. I understand that hunters who run hounds after game, especially in Wisconsin, are losing dogs to wolves with regularity. I do use a beeper on our dogs in hopes of running off any nearby wolves.

This coming season I'll be packing slugs.

[Victor Wasylyna]

a couple of 28 gauge slugs would be a better alternative.

Even better for wolves would be a buckshot load. Not sure such a load is commercially available, but I would think there are handloading recipes to be found.

-Victor

[Todd Poer]

Garry it was rough on my dad to lose his dog, especially really not knowing what happened to him. He was there for his usual week of hunting and lost that dog the second day and spent rest of the week agonizing trying to find him and going to nearby towns and vets. He always used bells. He thinks someone might of picked him and was not thinking of a wolf until months later. He was a big Llewellyn and he was a bit rangey for grouse woods but he could find em and never would wander off too far. He was walking down this old rail road bed that terminated into a swamp lake like a dead end. Dog went down into some cover of old clear cut and he could hear his bell working and then it stopped and he went to where he last heard him thinking on point about 75 yards away and dog was not there and never saw or heard him again.

Dog was also very distinguishable for a setter. Seems he got some sort of infection on tip of his tail and it would never heal up. It confound the vet. Part of his tail about an inch or two at time would just die and part of tail had to be amputated three times. Dog had antibiotics pumping through him, clean bandages and ointments etc. Anyway dog had lost two thirds of his tail before it healed up. So if anyone sees an old Llewellyn setter in Minnesota with only 1/3 a tail that would be about 15 now let me know.

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry it was rough on my dad to lose his dog, especially really not knowing what happened to him. He was there for his usual week of hunting and lost that dog the second day and spent rest of the week agonizing trying to find him and going to nearby towns and vets. He always used bells. He thinks someone might of picked him and was not thinking of a wolf until months later. He was a big Llewellyn and he was a bit rangey for grouse woods but he could find em and never would wander off too far. He was walking down this old rail road bed that terminated into a swamp lake like a dead end. Dog went down into some cover of old clear cut and he could hear his bell working and then it stopped and he went to where he last heard him thinking on point about 75 yards away and dog was not there and never saw or heard him again.

Dog was also very distinguishable for a setter. Seems he got some sort of infection on tip of his tail and it would never heal up. It confound the vet. Part of his tail about an inch or two at time would just die and part of tail had to be amputated three times. Dog had antibiotics pumping through him, clean bandages and ointments etc. Anyway dog had lost two thirds of his tail before it healed up. So if anyone sees an old Llewellyn setter in Minnesota with only 1/3 a tail that would be about 15 now let me know.

Gosh, Todd, your story makes me cringe. What a horrible thing to lose a dog like that. On two separate occasions while hunting in Northern Minnesota, we came upon lost dogs. Both times we loaded them into our truck and, praise be, both times the first truck we found belonged to the owners. I've lost one dog in my nearly 40 years of following them, and it was an awful experience. Fortunately I found my dog well after dark, but it was one of the worst experiences I've every had. I probably hold 'em too close, but they are our family. Thanks for responding to my post. I hope you never have another lost dog in your family, and I hope your father's dog is alive and well, living in retirement with a family that cares well for a short-tailed setter.

[Garry L Gordon]

Even better for wolves would be a buckshot load. Not sure such a load is commercially available, but I would think there are handloading recipes to be found.

-Victor

Victor, If you come across any recipes, let me know. Thanks!

[Todd Poer]

Hope so to but if he was taken care of possibly a Vet would have picked up on the chip in the ear. Maybe they did and someone would lie and say he bought him after taking him way off some where, but that is probably not the case.

All our bird dogs were trained to hunt close in cover so that is what was so strange. That is only dog in our family that has ever been lost like that. We too have picked up only one or two dogs that got lost on hunts ourselves and would wait by the truck at a close obvious point and sure enough some one would come by and ask if seen a dog. That is what he thought would happen. Yep that trip plus grouse numbers down and some other minor things put an awful taste in his mouth. He loves it up there but he is not been back hunting up there since.