Western 12 gauge 3" "Record"

[CraigThompson]

A customer brought me a box of Western 12 gauge 3" "Record" shells . Lubaloy Super X #4's in paper hulls .

I'm curiouse as to what time period they may have been made .

Am I correct in assuming 40's ?

[CraigThompson]

The box is stamped 1 3/8 ounce of #4's .

[Dean Romig]

That’s certainly a “collectors item.”






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[CraigThompson]

That’s certainly a “collectors item.”

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If I can get a decent Belgium A-5 12 MAG full choke barrel I just may try to use one or two of them to pot a gobbler !

[charlie cleveland]

those shells are probably from the 30 s.....and worth probably a hundred dollar bill if the box and shells are in good shape..... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

The first appearance of the Lubaloy Super-X loads that I have from Western is in the February 1, 1929, Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun. They are not in the March 1, 1928, edition. The 1 3/8 ounce
Lubaloy load was offered from then into the 1960s. The extreme high brass RECORD case was replaced by the Super-X case shortly after WW-II.

As you can imagine over this time period there were several styles of boxes. So far, I haven't been able to snag a picture of a 12-gauge 3-inch Lubaloy two-piece box from the 1929-1932 period. There are probably versions from 1929 and 1930 with the old corrosive primers and ones from 1931 and 1932 with the new Non-Corrosive Primer.

By 1933, Western had gone to the one-piece shotshell boxes and this style was in use --

65206

into 1939, when the blue and yellow boxes came into use. By 1948, the RECORD case had been replaced by the regular Super-X case and the Super-Seal Crimp and the Super Seal Cup Wads replaced the roll-crimp and the Seal-Tite wads --

65207

[Daryl Corona]

With all due respect to the A5 Craig those shells were made for the M12HD. Send some to me, my HD will eat them like M&M's.:):)

[CraigThompson]

The first appearance of the Lubaloy Super-X loads that I have from Western is in the February 1, 1929, Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun. They are not in the March 1, 1928, edition. The 1 3/8 ounce
Lubaloy load was offered from then into the 1960s. The extreme high brass RECORD case was replaced by the Super-X case shortly after WW-II.

As you can imagine over this time period there were several styles of boxes. So far, I haven't been able to snag a picture of a 12-gauge 3-inch Lubaloy two-piece box from the 1929-1932 period. There are probably versions from 1929 and 1930 with the old corrosive primers and ones from 1931 and 1932 with the new Non-Corrosive Primer.

By 1933, Western had gone to the one-piece shotshell boxes and this style was in use --

65206

into 1939, when the blue and yellow boxes came into use. By 1948, the RECORD case had been replaced by the regular Super-X case and the Super-Seal Crimp and the Super Seal Cup Wads replaced the roll-crimp and the Seal-Tite wads --

65207

The label on the box is the first one you pictured . Sadly the box is missing the bottom and about seven shells .

[CraigThompson]

With all due respect to the A5 Craig those shells were made for the M12HD. Send some to me, my HD will eat them like M&M's.:):)


I'm not much of a pump person although I've owned a couple Model 12's . I suppose instead of the A-5 I could use my 12 Mag Superposed . But I think I'd prefer a Bert Becker massaged HE Fox or a Model 21 3" !

[Dave Noreen]

With all due respect to the A5 Craig those shells were made for the M12HD. Send some to me, my HD will eat them like M&M's.

No! No! Daryl, Along with the introduction of the Model 12 Heavy Duck, Winchester and Western introduced their 12-gauge 3-inch Super Speed and Super-X MAGNUM loads with 1 5/8 ounce of shot.

[charlie cleveland]

dont forget the lc smith long range 3 inch gun and the super fox 3 inch gun...the 1 3/8 ounce magnum loads were made for this loading before the model 12 was made by ten years....probly a few parker 3 inch guns were made for this load... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

The 1 3/8 ounce progressive burning powder, high velocity load in the 12-gauge 3-inch case was not called MAGNUM. Note the word MAGNUM is not on the boxes I've shown.

[Daryl Corona]

No! No! Daryl, Along with the introduction of the Model 12 Heavy Duck, Winchester and Western introduced their 12-gauge 3-inch Super Speed and Super-X MAGNUM loads with 1 5/8 ounce of shot.

Thanks for reminding me about those 1 5/8oz. loads Dave. I can't believe that I used to shoot those through a Mossberg 500 pump. OUCH! I ended up handloading an 1 3/8oz. of 4's which was more effective and more pleasant to shoot.

[CraigThompson]

The same customer came in today and presented me with a second box of Winchester Leader 12 gauge 3" again with paper hulls and again missing the bottom of the box . These however have 24 in the box and are the 1 5/8 ounce again #4's . These have on the box Winchester Leader SuperWSpeed Staynless .

[Dave Noreen]

We need to link these threads --

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25034

[CraigThompson]

We need to link these threads --

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25034

The box holding the 1 5/8 ounce loads looks very similar to the box you posted in that thread except mine doesn't say lacquered .

Incidently what was lacquered ? The shot or the hulls ?

[Dean Romig]

The shell hulls were lacquered to make them “waterproof”.





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[Dave Noreen]

The hulls. A bit more waterproofing. I don't have any Winchester Lacquered shells. Here is a comparison of a Lacquered Remington ARROW Express 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum and a regular Remington Nitro Express 10-gauge 2 7/8 inch shell, both from the late 1930s --

65289

and here is the box for the 12-gauge 3-inch shell --

65288

[charlie cleveland]

i really like the looks of that lacquered shell...i do not have a laqured shell in my collection yet..i have some of the 10 ga shown when i was a boy my father let me shoot up a bunch of these old 10 ga shells i still have some and occasioally take a turkey with these loads...i have yet to have one of these green remingtons fail me...the 3 inch 12 ga is really a good load got to get me one of these lacqured boxes of shells...the 1 5/8 ounce load was a good load....charlie

[CraigThompson]

The Winchester 3" 1 5/8 ounce !

[CraigThompson]

The Western 1 3/8 ounce .

[CraigThompson]

More of the 1 3/8 ounce .

[Mark Landskov]

Please, don't shoot collectible ammunition. Quite often, the primers fail anyway.

:duck:

[CraigThompson]

Quite often, the primers fail anyway.

:duck:

Only one way to find out :whistle::rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

Wow. Nash Buckingham's favorite load. I haven't seen a box of those on Ward's auction for years. I wonder how much they would bring there.

[Bill Murphy]

What is 4K?

[Mark Landskov]

Do you mean '4L'? The 'L' indicates Lubaloy, which was Western's tradename for copper plated shot and bullets..

[CraigThompson]

Do you mean '4L'? The 'L' indicates Lubaloy, which was Western's tradename for copper plated shot and bullets..

The box of 1 5/8 ounce loads are stamped "4K" on top while the 1 3/8 ounce are stamped "4L" on top .

[Mark Landskov]

Ooops!

:whistle:

[Dave Noreen]

Those Winchester LEADER Super-Speed shells with the 4K (KopperKlad) shot are extremely rare and must have only been offered very briefly. None of the Winchester shotshell paper I have from 1931 to 41 shows that load. The only offering of KopperKlad shot in the Winchester paper that I have is in REPEATER Handicap Trap Loads in the early 1930s and the RANGER Handicap Trap Loads in the later 1930s.

By the way, I can recall that somewhere in a previous post I said there was no such thing as a Winchester 12-gauge 3-inch Super-Speed with coppered shot. Never say never! Me eating crow!

[Dave Noreen]

These are the LEADER Super-Speed offerings from a 1937-8 Winchester folder --

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and here are the regular Super-Speed listings from the same folder --

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and finally the RANGER listings showing the Handicap Trap Loads with the Kopperklad shot near the bottom.

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Another thing to note is that Winchester put up the 1 ounce 20-gauge, progressive burning powder, high velocity, load in both a 2 1/2 and a 2 3/4 inch shell, while everyone else only cataloged that load in a 2 3/4 inch or longer shell.

65336 65337

[Dean Romig]

Bill, didn’t you buy an unopened case of Nash’s ammo a few years ago?






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[Bill Murphy]

I did.

[Will Gurton]

Sorry I'm running a little behind the ball lately.

Here is a 3" KopperKlad box I picked up a couple of years ago.

Will

[Will Gurton]

And here is one I got in the mail yesterday.

[Bill Murphy]

Will, are these 3"?

[Dean Romig]

The box is stamped 2 7/8 in. right above WESTERN

Wouldn't those have been made 1/8" longer than a 2 3/4" chamber, adhering to the old practice of making the chambers 1/8" short for a better gas seal?




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[Will Gurton]

No Bill they are an eighth of an inch short.

Will

[Will Gurton]

Dean,

My understanding is that special wadding was used to relieve shot deformation in high end target loads and is what predicated the additional length in order to ensure proper crimp.

But I am by no means an authority.

Will

[Dean Romig]

Nor am I Will.




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[Dave Noreen]

The Winchester LEADERs are 3-inch. Wonder if they were some heavier loads they were experimenting with in preparation for the introduction of the Model 12HD?!? Certainly a load I've never seen catalogued. Is that a one-piece box with an old-style two-piece box label wrapped around it?

The Western RECORDs are 2 7/8 inch. Perhaps some of Spencer Olin's private Pigeon loads?

[Will Gurton]

The Winchester LEADERs are 3-inch. Wonder if they were some heavier loads they were experimenting with in preparation for the introduction of the Model 12HD?!? Certainly a load I've never seen catalogued. Is that a one-piece box with an old-style two-piece box label wrapped around it?


The Western RECORDs are 2 7/8 inch. Perhaps some of Spencer Olin's private Pigeon loads?

Yes Dave a one piece box and two-piece label!

Funny you should mention that. I was told when I bought them that they were out of East Alton, IL., but have no further info than that.

Thanks for the added details,

Will