"V3" coded B grade

[Nick de Guerre]

Hi All,

I have my black belt in Lefever, but am only a white belt at Parker. :) I'm looking for a little knowledge.

There's a B grade out there for sale on the interwebs that I'm a little perplexed by. I'm not 'in the market,' per se, just trying to understand.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/view/_995134080.aspx

What stood out to me straight away was Vulcan Steel barrels, which I wouldn't expect on the B grade. The serial number is listed in the Parker ID book, which says it's code V3, "Probably grade 3 (D grade) with Vulcan Steel barrels."

Below this entry are two others for similarly finished guns, "V4" being grade 4 (C grade), and "VB" being a similarly finished grade 5 (B grade). Both, also with Vulcan Steel barrels.

So given it indicates that at least Vulcan barrels WERE put on at least SOME B grades...and further that these codes all begin with "probably"...

...what are your feelings about the legitimacy of this gun?

I should add, the serial number is within the known serial range listed with code V3 details. If I've missed something obvious, please forgive me...again, merely a white belt.

- NDG

[Mills Morrison]

Those are almost certainly replacement barrels

[Bruce Day]

On matter Lefever, I reach for the Elliott book.

On matters Parker, I reach for The Parker Story. That will tell you when Vulcan barrels were first made.

[Chris Travinski]

I really like the super long, almost full coverage forend checkering. It's not original finish anywhere on it but it's very cool gun that I'd admit to owning if it were mine!!

[Bill Murphy]

Without looking at the ad, I would guess it is one of the FIRST black barrel (Vulcan) guns that were B and D grades. Totally original. Look in the SB. By the way, Albright had this gun offered several years ago and have a reputation of leaving sold or taken back consignment guns on their site for many moons. Call them and see whether this gun is still available. I would think this is an old ad. Years ago, I looked at the gun and was intrigued, but did not order a letter on it and a $40 letter would be way out of the realm of possibility for Albright's to sell a $9000 gun.

[Nick de Guerre]

Bill,

This listing was in my daily GunsAmerica "new listings" email as of a few days ago.

So, your opinion would be contrary to what Mills suggested above? That they are replacement barrels?

I'm not stirring the pot...just cavassing for learned opinions.


Mills,

Could you share why you think the barrels aren't original?


- NDG

ps I'm not certain what members think of someone posting a serial number of a gun they don't own, which I why I just put up the listing link and described the gun, rather than giving the number. But it's clearly in the pictures for anyone who wants to reconfirm what I cross-referenced in the ID book with any other source.

[Mills Morrison]

There are surviving records on your gun for a research letter and that should answer the question. That is what I would do

[Mike Poindexter]

Wonder who did the restoration? Its as nice as I've seen, especially the mullered borders on the forend, the aged Hawkins pad, and the receiver case colors. I need another 30 inch 12 bore like I need a hole in the head.

[Nick de Guerre]

Mike Poindexter,

Respectfully, to me, if this gun was ever restored, it was done a long time ago. I've seen some very good "light touch" restos of guns, meant to look as though they were original, and haven't seen one THIS good. The Hawkins pad isn't right, but the barrels are faded, and the checkering looks properly worn...if lightly used.

Again, I'm no expert with Parkers. But I have seen and owned some restos. I would be surprised and humbled if a majority of collectors agreed this gun was restored.

My two chief questions were: (1) Is the spot on the rib just ahead of the extension a fill where a bead was once bizarrely positioned, and (2) was the gun a "legit" D grade that was upgraded to B purely with engraving enhancement.

The first question I still can't decide on, because it's a little off center, and looks like it could have been a spot where the barrels just got dinged with a peen-style mark. The second question to me seems unlikely, as the engraving style seems fluid throughout, and everything about the gun seems appropriately "aged" to me.

But my real interest was simply to get the crowd's idea of whether this gun seemed legit as originally done, irrespective of whether it was restored in any way.

Further thoughts anyone? It was suggested that Vulcan steel wasn't yet introduced in 1895. Is this true? Or was it just not yet introduced on VH's? Given it's a unique work order code, perhaps as Bill M. suggested it's just a super early Vulcan gun?

- NDG

[Phillip Carr]

I agree with Bill. I would veture to guess that this is one if not the first B grade made with Vulcan barrels. I own SN 82226 ( 7 sn from this B) my Parker is a D grade which was part of a dozen Parkers that originally came with Vulcan barrels. If I recall there was one or two B grades with Vulcan barrels made at this time.

[Brian Dudley]

The gun is a head scratcher for sure. The finishes on the gun have been completely restored at one point for sure.

The barrels are likely original based on what the serialization book states. Even though the grade is not matching. That could just be an error. The lack of some typical markings on the barrel flats is a curiosity. But, if it was VERY early in the installation of Vulcan barrels, that could explain variances from the norm. The large '0' is likely in place of the typical 'V'. Since the V was the 0 grade. But it does have the small '5' for the grade of B.

The most bazarr thing is the forend. I have never seen a splinter forend like that on a Parker. It is easily almost twice the length as a standard forend. And the checkering pattern on it is like none that I have ever seen, but then again it goes right along with the forend.
Now... everything else about the forend looks right. The way it is made, the fit and finish and even the way the checkering is cut and the borders all look factory. I am surprised for the forend not to have the typical metal tip on it though.

Only a surviving records will tell for sure. THAT is the key to answering all of those questions.

[Richard Flanders]

I think it's been restored from end to end.

[Chris Travinski]

Is the spot on the rib just ahead of the extension a fill where a bead was once bizarrely positioned- NDG

I have a DHE that had a copper bead peened onto the opening lever right behind the dolls head extension. It's a known pigeon shooting gun in the typical configuration and I was told by the previous owner that the third bead was something pigeon shooters used to do way back then. It's logical to assume that's what's going on with the rib on the gun in question.

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris,

You mean BEHIND the extension...on the frame?!?

[Chris Travinski]

Sorry, yes.

[Dean Romig]

Parker No. 82233 was manufactured before Titanic Steel barrels were introduced in 1897 and well before Acme Steel barrels were introduced in about 1903 - both of which would have been the standard fluid steel barrels for the grade 5 guns.
Obviously the person who ordered this gun had a preference for fluid steel and aside from Whitworth Steel, the Vulcan Steel barrels were all that was available if you didn’t want Damascus.

This was a special gun for a special person and he also probably ordered the forend finished in the manner it is today. He was certainly a discriminating fellow...

A research letter may just fill in all the blanks.






.

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris T.,

Thanks for clarifying...that's wild. I have not seen that to my immediate recollection. I feel like every gun ever made without a safety is marketed as a "pigeon gun." *smirk* I have seen L.C. Smith material describing them, but can't recall whether there was ever any common thread of characteristics other than typically straight stocks and resulting shallow DOH dimensions. Did Parker ever advertise "Pigeon" or "Live Bird" models/dimensions?


Dean,

Thanks very much for clarifying that. That would make it special indeed.

- NDG

[Todd Poer]

That is neat find and definitively something different with that for-end. Whoever the gun was made for probably had some long arms. Maybe gun was made for one of those earlier 7 foot guys we were trying to identify that was discussed here about a few weeks ago with Sara. Now wouldn't that be incredible coincidence.

Oops strike that this gun would pre-date that time frame by about 50 years, but still.

[Chris Travinski]

Here is a picture just for giggles, the copper bead is on the opening lever not the frame. The debate about live bird guns is a another topic all together that has been discussed on here plenty. I'm just pointing out the signs because I find them very interesting.

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris,

Thank you, I've definitely not seen that. Being so close to the eye, I wonder if the idea was basically similar to that of a ghost ring peep...where the eye essentially loses the rear sight as it focuses through to the front. (??)

Great pic.

- NDG

[Todd Poer]

I am no expert on it as to its need and application but what I have been told and experienced a bead on that part of a gun can't be used in active shooting at anything in way of a moving target. I guess there are times when you need to use those two points to quickly check gun mount's point of reference when practice mounting gun to make sure gun is aligned and pointing to what your looking at and maybe a point of impact. Sort of like a quick reference bore site. Have seen plenty of mid barrel beads but never one so far back on a shotgun. I guess the further the distance between the two beads gives a more refined or tighter reference point.

Here is a cliche` article I saw on it that confirms probably what we have all been told about shotgun shooting ad nausea-em. But it is on the interweb so it must be confirmed gospel. BTW the whole fiugure 8 description made my head spin for a few moments trying to wrap my mind around what he was saying :clap::throw:

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/really-need-bead-shotgun/

Tom Knapp was supposedly a big endorser of optic front bead sight later in his career, but I think he was just a paid spokesman. He was such a good shot contrary to what he said in endorsements he did not need that product. He got damn good way before any glowing, good thought bad idea, bead came back on the market.

[Chris Travinski]

It must be used as a reference for mounting the gun. I can honestly say I give zero thought to the beads when I'm shooting, if you're looing at the bead(s) you're probably not looking at the target. I do however use the front and middle beads to get a feel for mounting the gun, when the front and mid beads are stacked I know everything is where it needs to be.

[Bill Murphy]

Nick may have received a "new" gunsamerica email about the gun, but the gun was listed by Albright's several years ago. I have handled the gun and naysayers should go back to bed. This is an original gun, it is in the SB serial number range for Vulcan barrels being installed on some graded guns. The SB entries for these early Vulcan barrel guns include 82225 to 82230, 82232 to 82234, and 82269 to 82275. These are true Parker prototypes for black barrels and were probably not ordered by anyone. Our organization should live up to it's proclaimed mission of sharing information with its members and publish the order book information on these important early guns. I will be anxiously awaiting the always present invitation for me to pay my multiples of $40 and order letters. No thanks, the PGCA owes it to its members to assist in the study of guns like these.

[Chuck Bishop]

Bill, I don't want to disappoint you so why don't you pony up the $40 for a letter? You always ask other members to write a check and get a letter. You also ask members to post a copy of their letters on this web site. Once you get the letter, you can post it for all to see.

[Nick de Guerre]

I do however use the front and middle beads to get a feel for mounting the gun, when the front and mid beads are stacked I know everything is where it needs to be.

Chris,

I agree. This is the one and only benefit I have ever found for a mid bead on a non-turkey shotgun. And even then, once I really have a feel for the cheek mount on a particular gun, it sits right back in the right spot on it's own.

THAT said, I'm still perplexed as to what the real purpose of a lever mounted bead would be...especially given the lever is going to move over time. As exactly zero people need to be told on this forum, no one "aims" a shotgun for any purpose other than turkey...or burglar.

Perhaps only for turkey. :rotf:

- NDG

[Bill Murphy]

Review the Parker Pages article on the "Gold Hearts" gun by Austin Hogan if you want to see some outrageous sights close to the eye. Sorry, I don't have a date reference for the issue. Thanks to Chuck for his regular juvenile post about "Murphy should order some letters." He beat the other guy to the punch. Chuck knows that I am not afraid to order a letter and some have been ordered for guns I do not own. Chuck also knows that I have shared more research information than anyone who has ever posted on this forum, and will continue to do so. And, although I am criticized for doing so, I will continue to suggest that owners of interesting Parker guns and those contemplating purchasing such guns order PGCA letters on those guns. I don't understand why Chuck objects to my suggestions. Maybe he is overworked in his position of Chief Researcher. He is certainly appreciated by those of us who purchase his services.

[Todd Poer]

It must be used as a reference for mounting the gun. I can honestly say I give zero thought to the beads when I'm shooting, if you're looing at the bead(s) you're probably not looking at the target. I do however use the front and middle beads to get a feel for mounting the gun, when the front and mid beads are stacked I know everything is where it needs to be.

I agree. If looking at bead, then your aiming. When aiming, at least for me, I have tendency stop swinging gun effectively. Also I am not a big hand gun guy, as a matter of factor don't even own one, but have shot enough to learn sight picture. The old mantra of when "In a fight, front sight". Which means sight picture is focused on front sight for aiming purposes making rear sights and general target area blurry. Human eyes cannot focus very well on more than one item. The good shot-gunners I know always focus on something very small on the moving target, meaning that any sight on gun has to be either blurry or unnoticeable. Maybe an optic front bead may help as long as eye control is fixed on target, but don't have alot of experience with it. Besides if someone would put one of those on a Parker or old sxs, that might be a tar and feathering offense.

[Brian Dudley]

It was not the wishes of Remington for the records to be available to anyone and everyone. It was for use by the PGCA to be able to have a basis for an association as well as an income source to help sustain said association.

Individual use of them for individual purposes was not the intent. It was individual abuse of this that got the doors closed at Remington to the PGCA for a very long time. There is still bad blood over that to this day with some.
But, you know all about it Bill, so I do not need to remind you.

[Bill Murphy]

Posting of order book copies of interesting guns like these black barrel graded guns on the PGCA forum would not go against anything that Remington planned for these books. Don't get your shorts in such a dither about nothing. If Chuck and his order books got into this discussion of these interesting guns, it wouldn't cost Chuck, Remington, or anyone else anything. It would, however, give some credibility to the original reason for the existence of the PGCA, which is the study and research of the Parker shotgun.

[Bill Holcombe]

Interesting, didn't realize PGCA was on bad terms with Remington. Personally I think the PGCA does a pretty good job of promoting and researching the parker gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Interesting, didn't realize PGCA was on bad terms with Remington. Personally I think the PGCA does a pretty good job of promoting and researching the parker gun.

Well... There is still bad blood with some inside the Remington Society. But that is aside the point. Most anyone actually at Remington that was involved is long gone at this point.

[Dean Romig]

The PGCA is not on "bad" terms with Remington Arms.

Let us just say that over time and with events that have taken place, and with the 'changing of the guard' at Remington, the PGCA is not on the same terms with Remington that it once enjoyed.






.

[Todd Poer]

I think Remington/JP Morgan have bigger things to worry about. Understand JP Morgo retired $775 mil in debt to take a large stake in the company when they emerged from bankruptcy in May. Parker brand is in cryogenic stasis or better yet alive but on ice probably in their view. PGCA is definitely creating brand value for them at little to marginal expense to maintain copyrights and patents. If there is ever a revival of SXS interest and Old Reliable they will be grateful for this organization and its die hard followers. Guarantee if JP is calling shots and they could make money with Parker Brand, they would be your best new buddy. They are really scratching their heads right now along with Ruger and alot of gun companies.

I have an idea to get more interest in SXS's again. Increase the bag limit in migratory game birds but limit magazine size down from 3 to 2 rounds. Pigs will fly before that happens but it would work.

[Bill Holcombe]

I would never be in favor of raising bag limits. Certainly not for something as trivial as restoring interest in SxS.

[Phillip Carr]

I do not want to side track this post but for educational purposes I am sharing pictures and information on my shotgun wiith original Vulcan Steel barrels.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/54873_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54873_600x400/)

[Phillip Carr]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/54874_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54874_600x400/)

[Phillip Carr]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/54875_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54875_600x400/)

[Phillip Carr]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/54876_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54876_600x400/)

[Jeff Kuss]

Looks like Canadian wood to me! LOL

[Phillip Carr]

Jeff the wood is actually original. It was so black that you could not make out any figure. This was the very first Parker I ever owned.the refinish of the wood was done locally.
The cost of tuition for “ The Introduction to Parkers 101” on this one was very high.Thats a whole other story I need to share sometime under a new posting.

[Dean Romig]

Phil, that’s a wonderful gun!

Vulcan Steel being so new Parker Bros. didn’t even have a Vulcan roll stamp for it yet so the top rib legend was engraved... fantastic!
A real piece of Parker history.





.

[Brian Dudley]

And the same 0 stanp on the barrel flat. Just like the subject gun.

[Randy G Roberts]

Since this was your first Parker I am curious if you had any knowledge of the rarity of it with the Vulcan barrels or did you get a pleasant surprise along the way ? Either way it's a great gun and thanks for sharing it. Kinda supports the old saying, never say never. Very educational thread BTW !!

Jeff the wood is actually original. It was so black that you could not make out any figure. This was the very first Parker I ever owned.the refinish of the wood was done locally.
The cost of tuition for “ The Introduction to Parkers 101” on this one was very high.Thats a whole other story I need to share sometime under a new posting.

[Todd Poer]

I would never be in favor of raising bag limits. Certainly not for something as trivial as restoring interest in SxS.

I get your position and appreciate it but it is not trivial what is happening to gun industry. Big believer in proper limits and game management; however bag and creel limits do change rightly and wrongly. Would someone ever push a narrative to eliminate millions of semi automatic hunting guns, but then just say double barrel guns are okay, stranger things have happened like a little thing called Prohibition. Never in my lifetime did I think Marijuana would be legalized in US, guess what.

It would be a slippery slope though for sure and its give and take proposition at best as a compromise. NRA, gun manufacture lobby, hunters collective cry might be the second loudest sound ever noted by mankind behind Krakatoa explosion if it were to happen.

Like I said Pigs might probably fly about then as well. Its just a theory, but how far fetched really is it. Recall most semi-autos shotguns have a magazine that can hold 4 shells but are supposed to be plug limited to only hold 2 rounds when hunting migratory game. It would not be hard for the Fed to just make that regulation change with the quick stroke of a pen and not change bag limits at all and they can do it on a whim calling it a test and it have nothing to do with how a gun is made or what type.

Besides even it were to happen not certain it would help sxs market but only a little, it would probably just mean sales of O/U would increase by a way more exponential factor.

Btw I also have simple rule change that would make game of football safer and eliminate confusing targeting and head lowering penalties. I will refrain as that might be too much to absorb and already off thread topic way more than I should be.:nono: