Low attendance expected at Vintage Cup?

[Pete Lester]

"Dr. Bob" sent this note along to members of the Lefever forum regarding the upcoming Vintage Cup shoot in Kennedyville MD next month. Perhaps this pertains only to attendance by LACA members but it reads as though he is talking about the entire shoot when he mentioned the vendors:

Bob Decker wrote:

"In the last newsletter I wrote that the LACA would attend the 2018 Vintager's Cup in Maryland September 21-23. We have had to rethink. Rumors are flying that attendance will be scant and few vendors have signed on. It is quite an effort for us to put on a show and at this point it is me only. Unless something changes it is not likely the LACA will have a presence at the Vintager's Cup this year".

[Kevin McCormack]

Dr. Bob and I had several discussions regarding this "phenomenon" (e.g. rumors of no-shows) at the recent Rock Mountain SC shoot. It is imperative that the Vintagers and Hopkins Game Farm release some type of confirmation regarding the number and type of vendors along with enhanced publicity NOW to avoid having this event become a self-fulfilling prophecy of rumor and innuendo. The clock is ticking....

[Mills Morrison]

I looked for a list of vendors and could not find one. I agree with Kevin.

[Randy G Roberts]

I was looking at the Vintagers & Hopkins websites a week or so ago in search of a vendor list. My intent was to look it over and possibly convince myself to go if the vendor list appealed to me. As I found no such list I just wrote the event off.That would support your theory Kevin, they need to post said list.

[Dean Romig]

I just shot an email to Gary Lacey of the Vintage Gunners.

I suggested he get a Vendor list on the Hopkins Game Farm website ASAP.

I will post here what I learn from him.

Dean

[Mills Morrison]

Thanks Dean!

[Eric Eis]

I think it's too late.........This event vendors complained last year about this event so I think you will see less this year, I think some of major players may not show up. It's too bad

[Kevin McCormack]

What were they complaining about?? I mean specifically; bad location(s) in the tent, bad food, lousy weather, heat & humidity, no good guns for sale, what? Some of these things we can control; others not so much. The little stuff can kill a good shoot (Remember when the local BBQ service ran out of food & most drinks at Pintail Point 2 days in a row??

[Eric Eis]

Kevin, I'm not sure but I think it was the turn out of people and shooters. I don't know just what I heard from some of the vendors. Like I said I would love to see this event grow and come back to what it was.

[Pete Lester]

Kevin, I'm not sure but I think it was the turn out of people and shooters. I don't know just what I heard from some of the vendors. Like I said I would love to see this event grow and come back to what it was.

Could the timing of the shoot have something to do with a low turnout? Dove, early goose and squirrel season are open in many states in September. The shoot is a week away from the start of Small Game seasons across the country. Many people save their time off and their money to go hunting then.

[Daryl Corona]

I don't know Pete, the Vintagers of previous years was always held in late Sept. and had good attendance. My opinion is that after it folded for a few years the bloom is off the rose so to speak. Ray P. and his loyal Edwardian gents and ladies were not in the attendance numbers last year like they were before.

My opinion is that there are 3 really well attended and fun shoots before this one. (Deep river, Ernie's and Mike's in August.) Maybe this is just one too many too late. Hunting seasons are pretty much underway and if this one was'nt in my backyard so to speak, I would'nt be attending.

[Dean Romig]

When it was held at Pintail there was never a shortage of vendors or attendees.

But one person’s MO was probably more responsible for the current situation than anything else... But he’s gone and those in charge today are running it right.

It should be considered a new and fresh beginning. And it will be if folks would give it a chance.





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[Frank Srebro]

I was planning to spin off/trade some guns to larger dealers at the VGC, and read on another site that Steve Barnett will not be there. I DO NOT personally know if that’s accurate. However I did talk today with Jay Schacter of Vintage Firearms who told me he will not be at the Orvis Game Fair nor at the VGC this year due to getting his new store up and running. As others have written it would be good to see a firm list of vendors and fairly quickly at that.

[Craig Larter]

I am not in the business of selling guns but the economics of attending these events makes little sense to me if I were a gun dealer. Table rental, travel costs and accommodations can easily exceed 2K-3K. You would need to sell 10K+ worth of guns just to break even and nobody in America is in business to break even. Shopping has become more internet based and shipping guns for inspection, it is more efficient for buyer and seller.
SxS shooting events have become too numerous in my opinion but the market will eventually correct the situation and eliminate the weaker ones.

[Mills Morrison]

Craig is exactly right. Actually, most of my purchases at gun shows were from other members and not dealers. The camaraderie is the main reason to go to shows

[Craig Larter]

The only businesses that may ultimately be able to justify attending these events are the major auction houses. They are the market makers today for high end stuff and their margins can justify the expense. The vintage shoots are a great venue to market both upcoming sales and obtain consignments. Free market capitalism is brutal but efficient. The small and weak will ultimately fail. Most dealer will rely almost fully on the internet and fed-ex in the future.

[Brian Dudley]

The cost for exhibition space at bigger events like the Southern and the Vintage Cup is completely ridiculous. $600-800 for a basic space with 2 tables! Imagine what the bigger vendors are spending!
At a lot of these events these days a smaller vendor is lucky to sell a gun or two or even just trade something. And most do not have margins to make up a $1,000 or more expense after tables, hotel and travel.

It getting to just not make financial sense.

At least at events like Ernie’s and Mike’s the vendor exhibition space is reasonably priced.

[Kevin McCormack]

FWIW - I have been approached several times over the last 2 years by the 'prime movers' of a number of these events, I suppose because I'm old now and have a good looking grandfather beard, but mostly because I've been to most of these things since the original VC at Addieville RI back in God knows what year. The primal question was always; "Where do you see this (these things) going?" Meaning of course the SxS's attraction of showing, selling, competition, and all things connected with it.

My answer is always the same: IMHO these type events enjoy a very predictable and finite life expectancy, mostly subject to the vagaries of event location, changing management, degree of difficulty and layout of the target courses and regimen, quality of ancillary services (quality of food service, number and placement of Port-A-Johns, availability of golf carts), costs for booth or tables, proximity to decent and affordable lodging, and is there anything for the wife or girlfriend to do while the beaux are oogling guns or actually shooting events?

Most of the commenters to this thread so far have touched on many of these factors. I think one of the major elements of declining attendance by both dealers and the public is that the event has been "interrupted" too many times since its departure from Sandanona; essentially never having been held in the same place more than 3 years in a row since then. It needs a real "home", in other words. I think may dealers interpret this as an event with a "rootless" existence, and shy away from participating due to the unpredictability of any kind of continuum over the near-term. Our collector organizations need to help keep it and similar events alive through displays, education, participation in competitions like the FPC, LCSPC and others. Being there is now much more than half the fun!

[Dean Romig]

Kevin, I think your comments concerning how it may have attained a level of “rootless existence” are quite valid.

Unfortunately it may have reached that “point of no return” but I sure hope it can be salvaged.
If memory serves me, it was held at Pintail Point it was for longer than three years. If I recall correctly, Didn’t we set up there for five years?





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[Kevin McCormack]

Dean, my understanding was that they (the VC) had signed a 3-year commitment contract with Pintail Point for holding the event there for that duration at a minimum. It has been just long enough and enough mental miles that I cannot confirm that for sure. It could have been longer.

[Frank Srebro]

Dean is correct; the Vintage Cup was held at Pintail Point from 2007 to 2011 (5 years). It moved to Addieville in RI in 2012.

[Bill Mullins]

Pintail Point was for 4 years ..... 2007-2010. Great shooting, collector, and exhibitor participation. Some of the best years for our annual meetings and banquet attendance. All just seemed to come together during that time period. :)

[Bill Mullins]

The Annual Meeting was in Louisville, KY in 2011 and Georgetown, SC
in 2012. That meeting was cut short due to Tropical Storm Sandy.

[Frank Srebro]

Pintail Point was for 4 years ..... 2007-2010. Great shooting, collector, and exhibitor participation. Some of the best years for our annual meetings and banquet attendance. All just seemed to come together during that time period. :)

As I'd posted earlier, the Vintage Cup was at Pintail Point for 5 years to include 2011. Here's a link to a thread on the Fox site that references the 2011 VC at Pintail.

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3494

[Eric Eis]

I was planning to spin off/trade some guns to larger dealers at the VGC, and read on another site that Steve Barnett will not be there. I DO NOT personally know if that’s accurate. However I did talk today with Jay Schacter of Vintage Firearms who told me he will not be at the Orvis Game Fair nor at the VGC this year due to getting his new store up and running. As others have written it would be good to see a firm list of vendors and fairly quickly at that.

I met with Steve last night and no he will not be at the Vinagers but I think he said he would be at Orvis Game Fair.

[Dave Tercek]

I was told, by one of the major vendors, that the dust was so bad last year he had to buy an air compressor to blow off his guns. This was a primary complaint.

[Dean Romig]

Come what may - We will still hold the PGCA Annual Meeting and Banquet at Hopkins Game Farm and the Fox/Parker Challenge will still be held on their shooting grounds as will all other scheduled shooting events.

Kathy and I will certainly be there.





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[Mills Morrison]

I will be there too with my son Mills and we are looking forward to it.

[George Stanton]

I was told on 8/20 that a vendor list was being put on the Vintagers website. I just looked and no list to be found.

As for dust in the tents and on the guns, I recommended after the first time at Hopkins, and again last summer, that they move the exhibitors tents onto the grass. There's nothing like seeing a table of 50,000 dollar guns with dust so thick you could write your name on them. Plus the tents would be cooler. I wasted my time.

[Mills Morrison]

I checked and don't see any list of vendors.

[Rich Anderson]

Vendors are a great addition to a shoot and the main reason I go to the Southern cause it sure isn't the shooting there. Ernie has a good vendor turnout as well and good shooting. These shoots are held the same weekends every year and both shooters and vendors can make their plans.

Michigan has a fledgling shoot in early September called The Tunnel of Trees. This is the third year and while they had vendors last year there will be none this year. I asked the reason why and was told "they didn't sell anything". I bought a nice Fox AE 20 from one of them.

The Great Northern is an excellent shoot but vendor participation is sparse there also.

At the end of the day the events need shooters first and foremost to survive. The southern and Ernie's make good on both sides of the event but out of the half dozen or shoots I go to they are the only two that do so.

[Ed Blake]

Previous Vintagers management did a far better job of marketing the event when it was at Pintail Point. Those were great events and it didn’t hurt that it was a bull market for SxSs.

[Mike Koneski]

Most vendors, especially the gun vendors, want to know what non-shooting foot traffic they will be expecting. For the most part, we can't predict that. No matter what advertising is done, we can't say there will be X number of shoppers. We can fairly accurately predict how many shooters will attend and some of them are definitely shoppers too. Our event has grown (numbers of shooters and total events shot) over the 4 years. We plan on growing even more. Every shoot seems to have vendors that can't come after they have said they would. Various reasons, but it happens. The collector associations are always a plus when their presence is enjoyed in the vendor area. In the end, throw good targets and have good food and shooters will be happy. If the weather cooperates then the results are even better. Onward and upward lads!!

[Dean Romig]

I was just speaking with Morris and he told me that Gary Lacey hasn't been involved in the operation of the Vintage Gunners since around the first of the year... who knew??

Morris is expecting a good turnout.

Incidentally, he said that they (RST) have updated their website and most items that said they were out of stock... now have plenty of stock.

He will be at Hopkins Game Farm.





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[Mills Morrison]

Good to hear Morris will be there. He'll get some business from me

[Daryl Corona]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;251404]I was just speaking with Morris and he told me that Gary Lacey hasn't been involved in the operation of the Vintage Gunners since around the first of the year... who knew??

If he is'nt then who is?

[Dean Romig]

He told me but the name slipped my mind but as I recall he may be a board member of the LCSCA.

Sorry...





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[Daryl Corona]

No apologies needed Deano, we're all getting old and forgetful.:)

[Dean Romig]

I just shot a message to Morris asking him to tell me again... and I promised not to forget this time. :banghead:






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[Daryl Corona]

Note pads are your friend:)

[Mills Morrison]

Matt Haney might be in charge now. He is a nice guy

[MattHaney]

Tom Snyder is the Vintage Gunners President.

[Dean Romig]

Yes! That's what Morris told me! Thanks Matt.






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[Patrick Lien]

If I was to EVER decide my attendance to a DoubleGun event or show based on a couple of used gun dealers showing up or not then I would find another passion. I can shop these guys online all day long and their wares don’t make me want to cancel any plans to attend an event and shoot my guns or mingle with like minded people. I hope the event is well attended and has many doublegun shooters and I hope your annual meeting is well attended. Guys that like hanging with used gun dealers may feel otherwise. Perhaps they should ask their dealer where they will be that weekend and they can make arrangements to be there too. If I was shooting my gun at the event I could not care less.

PML

[William Davis]

Probably not going to be a popular opinion but. Reason the spring Southern is successful it’s run by a Businessman, Vintagers could revert to club attendance at a Fall event run by the Course owners. It’s very difficult for a club to organize and run a large event . Some very good courses in the NE operated by people that know how to promote events.

William

[Mike Koneski]

If I was to EVER decide my attendance to a DoubleGun event or show based on a couple of used gun dealers showing up or not then I would find another passion. I can shop these guys online all day long and their wares don’t make me want to cancel any plans to attend an event and shoot my guns or mingle with like minded people. I hope the event is well attended and has many doublegun shooters and I hope your annual meeting is well attended. Guys that like hanging with used gun dealers may feel otherwise. Perhaps they should ask their dealer where they will be that weekend and they can make arrangements to be there too. If I was shooting my gun at the event I could not care less.

PML

PML, I am with you 100%. When I go to these events I go to shoot. Might take a quick pass through certain vendors, but I am there to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.......:)

[Bill Murphy]

If the promoter of the Spring Southern would purchase about another 50 acres of ground for parking and course improvement and make the course something more interesting than it is, the Spring Southern would be much more than the Vintagers will ever be again. I have been shooting the Sanford course for 19 years and could shoot it blindfolded. Am I right or am I wrong? We don't need an Orvis facility to shoot sporting competition and buy guns. If Anthony Matarese at M&M Sporting in New Jersey ever decided to run a side by side shoot with vendors and collectors associations, no other side by side shoot would survive for six months. There would be absolutely no competition.

[Eric Eis]

If the promoter of the Spring Southern would purchase about another 50 acres of ground for parking and course improvement and make the course something more interesting than it is, the Spring Southern would be much more than the Vintagers will ever be again. I have been shooting the Sanford course for 19 years and could shoot it blindfolded. Am I right or am I wrong? We don't need an Orvis facility to shoot sporting competition and buy guns.

That's why we go to the Southern to see friends and the vendors, but we shoot Drakes Landing which is a wonderful with two courses. with great people willing to bend over backwards to help. As Bill said, I have not shot Deep River in ten years but I know each of the few stations as the targets are the same every year (yes I have walked the course a few times in the past few years) and that is too bad.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Speaking with Jim Hall looks like we are only going to have 2 tables for display, I guess we will share a tent as we do at the Southern. I will be traveling starting Sept 7. good lord willing into Kentucky Ohio and across to the event in Kennedyville Need to know just how many guns to bring so I can plan my set up, Gary

[John Davis]

I believe this event will be well attended and I'm really looking forward to it. I know we've sold a lot of tickets for the Annual Meeting/Banquet. Having said that, assuming for the moment that attendance isn't what everyone is hoping for and assuming few vendors make it, as long as 75 to 100 Parker guys and gals show up with their guns to shoot, show off or trade then I'll be perfectly happy. Throw in the rest of the collector groups and you've got a side x side party. So I wouldn't worry about all the rumors and just pack up the car and head towards the Eastern Shore come the end of September. Bring all your Parkers and be ready to buy a bunch of shells from RST. See you down the road.

[Dean Romig]

Wish I could give you a whole string of “Thumbs Up’s”








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[Steve Cambria]

[QUOTE=Gary Carmichael Sr;251696]Speaking with Jim Hall looks like we are only going to have 2 tables for display, I guess we will share a tent as we do at the Southern.

I think it would make perfect sense for Fox and Parker to display side by side (pardon the pun) first, to simplify the light admin duties associated with the FPC, second to enhance the camaraderie of this epic contest and from a pure, impact marketing standpoint to maximize the collector WOW factor when right Twix (Old Reliable) meets left Twix (The Finest Gun in the World). Messrs. McCormack, Cambria, Larter and Smith eagerly await your reply.

65110

[Mike McKinney]

I’m not sure what is already in place, nor is it anything I should comment about, but it sounds good to me. Possibly a great opportunity to visit together.

[Mills Morrison]

Sounds good to me Steve.

[Bill Murphy]

If you are anywhere where you can conveniently visit, you should come on by. The Vintagers is the Vintagers and it is always a place to be for double gun guys.

[William Davis]

I am attending and shooting, plus a couple of other courses way up and back.

William

[Craig Larter]

I will be coming from Rochester NY with Louis Parker, Mark Kircher and Rick Losey. We start Thursday and Friday with a visit to Daryl Corona's home sporting club in northern Maryland. Plan to be at the Vintagers Saturday and attend the annual meeting. Heading home Sunday. Looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones.

[Dean Romig]

We’re looking forward to seeing you guys!





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[Mills Morrison]

Doesn’t take too many people to have a good time. I will be there with my son Mills

[Daryl Corona]

Doesn’t take too many people to have a good time. I will be there with my son Mills

The more the merrier Mills.

[Mills Morrison]

I hope Russell Moccasin will be there.

[Dean Romig]

I will certainly ask him if he plans to attend.





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[Brian Dudley]

I hope Russell Moccasin will be there.



They will NOT be there.

They are going to the Orvis game fair, but not the vintagers.

I placed an order for two pairs of footwear from them a couple weeks ago. So, that means Mid January for delivery. I would have liked to have been measured at an event, but my wife did a fine job as a stand-in.

[Mike Franzen]

Craig I think I’ve met you, I have met Louis Parker and have not met Mark Kircher or Rick Losey. Looking forward to seeing you guys.