Soft gun prices

[Tom Jay]

Do prices for above average side by side shooters seem to be soft because the market has slowed or is changing? I own a few Parkers and Winchester Model 21’s and have been looking at prices for both in 16 gauge. It seems IMO that Model 21 asking prices today are below prices of 1 or 2 years ago and the guns I follow online don’t ever seem to sell. Above average Parker 16’s seem to sit on the shelves too and when called the owners are not wanting to move off their prices. Are others seeing the same market dynamics with side by sides?

[Ken Hill]

Tom,

I agree with prices being soft. Dealers seem to still keep their prices high and some guns stay online for sale for a long time. Dealers may have a lot of consignment guns allowing the guns to stay for sale with little overhead.

It isn't just model 21s and Parkers either. Quite a few makes of side by sides are for sale for a long time.

Ken

[John Campbell]

Do prices for above average side by side shooters seem to be soft because the market has slowed or is changing?

Sad to say, but the market IS changing. Today's shooters want:

1) over/unders
2) plastic stocks
3) choke tubes, and
4) Scores/huge bags of game.

Not art, craftsmanship, heritage... or field sport as we knew it.

Proof? Just thumb through a copy of any popular shooting magazine. You'll see the market of tomorrow.

It's media/tech driven. And it isn't going to change.

On a brighter note, California is burning to the ground... (sarcasm)

[Dean Romig]

Another thing not yet mentioned is that the market has become flooded with these guns.

The older collectors are facing their mortality and, often as not, with nobody in their families to pass them down to, they go to market.





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[CraigThompson]

Another thing not yet mentioned is that the market has become flooded with these guns.

The older collectors are facing their mortality and, often as not, with nobody in their families to pass them down to, they go to market.





.

I already gave my wife a list of what I want put in the box with my ashes :whistle:

[CraigThompson]

We see this almost every day at the shop . People die and the family wants the money rather then the guns . Now I’m not saying everything we move for folks are upper quality guns but we do see a fair amount . Quite a few times we’ve had folks come in after someone died and say dad told us this one was worth blah blah blah , and I tell them what a more likely value is in today’s market . They tell me I’m crazy and we lost it at what they say , six months later I’ve talked them down to what I told them and the gun sells .

[Tom Jay]

What’s the best way to negotiate for consignment gun that the shop doesn’t own? I’ve seen 2-3 guns I would have bought but the consignor had unrealistic expectations to the gun’s value. I’ve heard more than once after my reasonable offer was refused with cash in hand that someone will walk into their shop and buy it. Return 6 months later said gun still on rack and made same offer only to be refused again. Doesn’t make sense.

[Craig Larter]

The market is soft in my opinion except for the very best stuff be it guns or decoys. 17th and 18th century antique furniture is in a deep depression I hope vintage guns and hunting memorabilia doesn't follow. That being said I am still actively buying and not real concerned about future value as my stuff brings me joy.

[Steve Huffman]

Two nice guns sold on here today ! Do we think the prices were soft or inline ? Just wondering.

[Michael D Hankinson]

Interesting day at the local Grand Rapids MI gun show???today. My Impression is this is turning into more of a knife show, black gun parts, even had a pillow salesman there today. I did see a new Vendor at the show, had a "G" Grade Parker $1495, and a Holland & Holland side by side for $37,000, don't normally see a lot of those guns at this show. I carried two Twelve Gauge SXS guns for sale, a FOX Philadelphia Sterlingworth and an LC Smith that had been restocked with some really nice wood. Lots of lookers, no serious offers. Comments are "Nobody wants to buy a 12 today. I must confess at 74 I lean to my lighter guns today except for Turkeys and Woodchuck down near the garden.
Did sell a Remington 1100 20 gauge that I had replaced in the rotation with a Browning Sweet Sixteen. My best purchase today was a box of 3" 20 gauge ammo for $5 and two 12 gauge boxes of Woodchuck ammo for $4 each. Spent three and a half hours looking, talking and handling guns, except that Holland & Holland, and enjoyed the day.

[Ed Blake]

Plus, how much demand is there for 16s? My guess is not much.

[Bill Mullins]

Over the many years of my collecting and "love" for guns I cannot recall once when I purchased one that I did so thinking of present day or future value.
I bought them carefully (as I did have a limited gun fund) but primarily because I liked them and they filled a niche in my small collection. If they happened to
increase in value that was just an extra "bonus" but my primary goal was to enjoy them down life's path! Just how many "dollars" is it worth to hunt, shoot, collect and look at them for their beauty!
My daughters do not seem to be into collecting but my Grandaughter enjoys it and just may be the heir apparent to my gun collection. But, please, don't tell her yet because I want to enjoy them a little longer!!:)

[John Davis]

When you are as involved and invested in the vintage gun market as most of us on this site are, you begin to think the whole world feels or has felt the same way. Well, it doesn't and it never has. Outside of our tight little community, folks aren't now and since the end of WWII have not been particularly interested in side x side shotguns. I've been at this for about 30 years now, quite a while by some standards and not all that long by others, and from the beginning I was usually the only one on the dove field, or the duck pond, or the quail thicket carrying a side x side. Same at the Sporting clays courses. And usually one of the few walking around a gun show looking for a nice old double barrel. But now of course because of my years of associating with the double gun community, I really only hunt with the like minded and only really go to vintage shoots and I really only show up at antique gun shows. All of which make up about 1% of the gun world but seems like the whole world to me. And now I'm in to Trap shooting. And guess what, I'm the only one shooting a vintage single barrel trap gun. Same song, second verse. Prices are probably soft, but as mentioned above the sellers don't seen to have gotten that message yet. We have to remember we're in niche market.

[Rich Anderson]

Plus, how much demand is there for 16s? My guess is not much.

I think similar guns in 12 and 16 the 16 will sell first. This gauge has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity in recent years.

[CraigThompson]

What’s the best way to negotiate for consignment gun that the shop doesn’t own? I’ve seen 2-3 guns I would have bought but the consignor had unrealistic expectations to the gun’s value. I’ve heard more than once after my reasonable offer was refused with cash in hand that someone will walk into their shop and buy it. Return 6 months later said gun still on rack and made same offer only to be refused again. Doesn’t make sense.

If you came in our shop and wanted to make an offer if I thought it reasonable I’ll call the owner and tell them the offer and in my opinion they should seriously consider it . If on the other hand someone comes in and try’s to lowball the heck out of the item I’ll just tell them I am 200% sure that won’t be accepted . We have about half of a fellows Browning accumulation in the shop and all of its priced at about 1 1/2 times what I think the fair market value to be . But we have sold some of it .

[allen newell]

I made an addendum to my will specifying who gets my guns. My oldest grandson will get several Parkers, including a very nice 20 ga Trojan that Brad B. restored for me. My other Parkers are to be given to the 3 gents that I regularly shoot clays with and hunt with. I'm the oldest in the group and most likely the first to go.

[John Allen]

There are several factors at work in the classic gun market now.First,tastes have changed and people that shoot now generally want more modern guns.Therefore the "shooter" grade doubles have dropped in value.Second,mint "collector"grade guns are bringing more than ever.The market is changing to a pure collector market.Third,there are a lot of classic guns out there now.One of the things that drove this market when I started was Parkers and other doubles were considered rare and hard to find.The internet has killed that mystique.There are now hundreds of good doubles listed on various sites now.Economics 101,high supply means lower prices.

[Randy G Roberts]

I understand totally what you mean John when you say that you are the only one with a SxS. I shoot a fair amount of sporting clays and I would say that counting the State shoot I have shot 8-10 registered shoots this year, all with a SxS and I do not recall seeing one other SxS, not one. At the State shoot where they have trappers/score keepers at each station I inevitably got a comment from them, usually the same, that's the only one of them I've seen or you're the only guy shooting one of those. I will see a few SxS guns at fun shoots at the local club but that is about it.

When you are as involved and invested in the vintage gun market as most of us on this site are, you begin to think the whole world feels or has felt the same way. Well, it doesn't and it never has. Outside of our tight little community, folks aren't now and since the end of WWII have not been particularly interested in side x side shotguns. I've been at this for about 30 years now, quite a while by some standards and not all that long by others, and from the beginning I was usually the only one on the dove field, or the duck pond, or the quail thicket carrying a side x side. Same at the Sporting clays courses. And usually one of the few walking around a gun show looking for a nice old double barrel. But now of course because of my years of associating with the double gun community, I really only hunt with the like minded and only really go to vintage shoots and I really only show up at antique gun shows. All of which make up about 1% of the gun world but seems like the whole world to me. And now I'm in to Trap shooting. And guess what, I'm the only one shooting a vintage single barrel trap gun. Same song, second verse. Prices are probably soft, but as mentioned above the sellers don't seen to have gotten that message yet. We have to remember we're in niche market.

[Jack Cronkhite]

...I am still actively buying and not real concerned about future value as my stuff brings me joy.
Amen

[Mills Morrison]

Being in the buying mode, a buyer's market is fine with me for the time being. John Allen is right about the internet increasing supply. Same thing happened in old books which I collect too

[Kirk Potter]

Being in the buying mode, a buyer's market is fine with me.

Couldn’t agree more. I’m 32 and just really starting to acquire a “collection”

[Todd Poer]

Supply is only half of the equation. Supply is fixed since they aren't making anymore old guns, availability is the other operative concept of supply. True, availability has increased due to internet with speed to market and collections becoming available. Obviously the elephant in the room though is Demand. There is a need for more Mills and Kirks to enter the market, but will they.

The current demand based on buyer profiles that was understood and wiling to pay premium prices is just a diminishing lot. Obviously there are still some premium collectors that are willing to pay or sell guns at high prices and that is a tight knit group and an anomaly not in step with the larger market. As mentioned unfortunately the market is becoming a bit bifurcated between high grade collector guns and the ones that aren't. I think that is where the price depression and market confusion is mostly coming from. I got a feeling its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Just think we are talking about soft sxs gun market in one of the biggest bull markets.

[Joe Graziano]

I tend to agree, and can relate to the story about sellers. I recently saw a hammer shotgun for sale on GI. It was sort of an oddball 20 ga, made in the 1950s. Very well worn and from a previously unheard of maker. An "expert" advised him it was really a Beretta, because it was made a Brescia-made gun. It surely was not a Beretta. The seller isn't a gun guy and wanted nearly $1000 for the gun based on the expert's advice, which was entirely unrealistic. From what I have seen, it may bring $200-250 at auction. We exchanged email, I did a bit of educating and I politely suggested keeping grandpa's old gun in the family. The family really wanted to sell and would take $550, again unrealistic. I figured it would be fun on a quail hunt this fall and offered $300. The guy disappeared. My guess is, he thought I was trying to rip him off when in reality, $300 was the most he was going to get for it. At auction, the family would probably net maybe $150. Such is life.

[Bill Murphy]

I think we are seriously overthinking the soft market for double guns. Average guns, in condition or rarity, are of little interest to collectors and are almost impossible to sell at any reasonable price. Hot guns, whether in condition, rarity, or bore size, sell quickly at a reasonable price. Collectors are still searching for and buying hot guns. What is a "reasonable price" is a matter of opinion and sets the market for these hot guns. I recently bought a wonderful original late NID Ithaca 12 gauge with factory single trigger and ejectors, much color, for $280 from a local gun store who had had it for weeks with that price posted on it. If it had been posted by one of our dealer friends on the internet, it would have been priced at $750 or $800, or even more. The sellers of average guns are their own worst enemy in their search for ignorant and uninformed buyers. I agree so much with Craig Larter and Bill Mullins that I will keep buying great guns with no expectation except to enjoy them.

[Joe Graziano]

Well said, Bill. There is a huge supply of shooter-grade guns for fantastic prices, and that makes me very happy. As I noted above, there are some sellers with unrealistic expectations and I simply pass. However, the auctions are chock full of great old guns. One needs to be careful but assuming you are, there are deals to be had. I took a flyer on a VH for a whopping $100. It has some cosmetic issues, but otherwise is rock solid with perfect bores. Someone opened the chokes and put on a very nice replacement stock, and ugly (to me) but functional beavertail forend. The gun is absolutely fantastic on skeet and clays. I now have an excellent Parker shotgun for skeet, clays and soon hunting for $100. That's just amazing. I will spend money when I need to, such as my K-gun for trap, but I'll take a $100 Parker any day.

[Todd Poer]

Joe about 3 years ago went to local gun shop that mostly sells black guns and they had on consignment a few old sxs's. One really called to me it was a neat old cap and ball muzzle loading sxs with damascus barrels made in England but could get a name on who made gun. I shoot lefty since left eye dominant and long time ago someone had modified the original stock for a lefty. I really thought it was neat. Everything functioned on the gun but there is no telling about the bores on that gun. They wanted $275 and I said $200 and seller said no. I went back a few weeks later gun still there and the dealer was saying he won't charge em a commission since it was black powder an probably not safe to shoot so no paperwork would need to be generated and if my offer was still good and I said sure. This guy does a lot of traffic and I was only person in 6 months that made a serious offer. He called them and they still said no. He told them on the phone to come get their gun.

BTW $100 for Parker, that is a find.

[Kirk Potter]

I’ve noticed the amount of available guns seems to have slowed a bit recently, on the for sale section here, and on gunsinternational. I search “Parker” on gunsinternational probably 10 times a day, and it seems lately new listings aren’t being added as fast as they used to be. Same on here.

[Richard Flanders]

I feel very fortunate to have the one family member, a niece who works in a large gun store, that will appreciate and take good care of and shoot the VHE20 - my mothers gun - that I presented to her recently. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her that if she were not who she was that I would have sold the gun. She understood better after I gave her the speech on being just the caretaker for the next caretaker who gets the gun.

[Bill Holcombe]

Gun prices always get soft in the summer. I collect a variety of different brands. I have noticed guns seem to historically be cheaper in June, July, and early August. I bought a brand new in box Colt special Combat for about $800 below retail just last summer. Thats better than most of my experiences but it is there.

Part of the issue is people try to sell, how do I word this, more common/poorer condition guns for the prices that they see higher condition possibly far more collectible guns for sell. I am sorry, but a 2 frame DH 12 gauge with 30" barrels with worn barrels and no case colors isn't a rare enough gun that you should be pricing it based off of the price of a 1 frame DHE with 26 or 32 inch barrels and in high condition. But people do this.

People also try to sell guns as a complete unknown entity for the prices they see Steve Barnett or Puglisi or some other well known gun dealer has guns listed for. You aren't going to get that premium if you don't have that reputation and client base.

Often they are just clueless about the actual condition of their gun in the 1st place. I recently ran across someone trying to get rid of their grandfather's DHE 16. It was straight stocked and a 16 with ejectors so it had some interest value, but at the same time, the butt plate was gone and replaced with a vent pad, the barrels had no blue, no case, stock was only 13 LOP, engraving appeared to have been buffed, and both pieces of wood were heavily gouged and abused. There were prices I would have been interested in the gun at, but $8,000 was nowhere in the ballpark. I asked where he got that price and was told, "its a parker, they sale for way more than that online." Attempts to explain the difference in quality and grade and condition and such between what he had and what he had looked at were not successful. But this is what I do run into on the rare occasions I stumble upon a "locally" available gun.

I agree with Mr. Mullins, I do not buy guns for profit, despite what I tell my wife..."Its an investment dear." At the same time I do try to not make donations to idiots who think they have something they don't. I think collectors tend to get negative about the future of collecting as they age. I am on the younger end of the spectrum and have read heaps of nashing of teeth by colt people convinced no one is going to keep buying SAAs....yet just like Parkers the prices aren't getting any cheaper.

[Gary Laudermilch]

A short while ago I went to a local auction that had listed a Parker. Indeed it was a Parker VH 12 on a 2 frame with 30" barrels. It was, in my opinion, of just average condition. A good shooter grade gun but it was a common hardware store Parker. There were several guys looking it over and discussing how valuable Parkers are. One of these guys bought it for double what I thought it was worth. Go figure!

[Sara LeFever]

Couldn’t agree more. I’m 32 and just really starting to acquire a “collection”

Same here. I'm 31, and my "collection" amounts to 3 guns. Though, that is a good number for me right now, so I'm not currently "shopping". :)

Sara

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, but you just tend to find the best buys on guns Sara.

The market on shooter quality/entry level guns is down for sure. I do not really sell a lot of guns, but i have found the last couple years much harder to sell guns that would have sold quicker and for much more in the past.

[Sara LeFever]

Yeah, but you just tend to find the best buys on guns Sara.

I have been very fortunate, that's for sure. :whistle:

[Rich Anderson]

My acquisitions are down this year. I have purchased 4 shotguns to the best of my recollections, 3 Parkers and a Purdey but sold a Parker ( a lovely DH live bird gun in excellent condition) and sold about 20 rifles all Winchesters and most of them Pre64 M70's. I didn't give any of them away and realized a good market for everything.

[Kenny Graft]

Since the market is so soft....it is the slow time of the year! Does anyone want to sell a Parker OOO 28" 410 any grade will be considered. I have 10K to spend! SXS Ohio
Truth is...the cream is always worth the most and has buyers, Hunter grade guns are loosing market share everyday, less demand = softer prices. Hunters here in the north east part of the us have lost most of our quality up-land bird hunting. Like me how many grouse guns do I need???, now I have to drive to the UP to find good grouse hunting, one or two guns is plenty....I quit looking at them! A mid year Corvette ragtop may replace my bird hunting and need for SXS guns....)-: SXS Ohio

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

The market is soft in places when it comes to Parkers, We are a fortunate bunch though, I don't think we really realize what the PGCA does for the prices of our guns, we are a close knit group off individuals that have a love for the Parker shotgun, whether it be a shooter or a collector gun. A strong organization such as the PGCA will keep our guns in the the public eye and I believe there will always be a demand for a well made gun such as the Parker Shotgun, prices of almost everything is cyclical. So buy what you can and do not pass on the gun you have been looking for because it will not be there when you come back! I have sold a few but am still buying the hard to find Parker! Gary

[allen newell]

Thank you Gary

[Patrick Lien]

I think the double gun market is alive and well. I don’t think the problem is the buyers or the guns. The problem is the sellers and their delusional value of their guns. If you are selling guns then I think every Parker you own is guaranteed to sell in 3 easy steps.

1. Take 25 good close up pictures of your gun.
2. List the gun on GB with a starting price of $1 and no reserve.
3. Offer a complete honest description and return privilege at buyer expense.

Do this and your gun will sell for EXACTLY what it is worth. If you are delusional and look at the internet dealer’s guns and prices to determine the value of your guns then you will most likely be disappointed when you try to sell yours. I know this because I am delusional in my gun selling most of the time:) . I do have occasional fits of sanity and sell a gun at a reasonable price though. Here is my proof on the 3 step process. Every one of them looked reasonable to me.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/775848419
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/776705415
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/775243595
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/775849825
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/779325614
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/777064592
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/778728520
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/775780473
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/779381970

[Rich Anderson]

Like me how many grouse guns do I need???, now I have to drive to the UP to find good grouse hunting, one or two guns is plenty....I quit looking at them! A mid year Corvette ragtop may replace my bird hunting and need for SXS guns....)-: SXS Ohio

You need as many grouse guns as you can get, the BEST one is ALWAYS the next one. Trade grouse guns for a car!!! :eek: The horror of it the horror:nono:

[allen newell]

Ken, the same is true in Massachusetts. Virtually no decent cover left and hardly any native pheasants. I have to go to northern Maine to find native birds. The game areas down my way that get stocked attract every googan around. Its insane. But i will always be looking for that next grouse gun

[Richard Flanders]

I looked at Parkers on GI today and don't think that most of the sellers got the "soft gun prices" memo.

[allen newell]

Lol

[Mike Franzen]

I think many sellers suffer from RBS - Right Buyer Syndrome. They price the gun high and then it sits, like an iceberg, hoping the Titanic will come along. Selling guns works best when the Right Price Syndrome holds sway. Look at the guns that recently sold in our members section. The one thing they had in common was they were priced right and were picked up within hours of listing. Finding vintage doubles, rifles, pistol is easy today. Anyone with interest and a smart phone can shop anytime they want. At any hour of the day there are thousands of Parker’s available. I dont think it’s a soft market as much as it is an educated market. If you can’t sell guns you’re asking more than they are worth today.

[John Davis]

And maybe you paid too much for them to begin with. That's always been my mantra, "Buy high, sell low."

[Frank Srebro]

** deleted

[Kenny Graft]

I just saw a listing overnight on G.I. ....Parker Repro 28/410 SOLD already! Does not show the listing price? Did anyone see the asking price? SXS Ohio

[Kirk Potter]

I’ve contacted some sellers on here and on gunsinternational offering what I’d consider a fair price only to have them respond with a counter offer that’s $25 less than their asking price. I usually don’t even respond after that. Their are guns still for sale on gunbroker that were there when I first joined the PGCA in March, 2016. Makes me wonder what the seller is thinking? After more than a year, maybe, just maybe your price is a too high.

[Dean Romig]

Kenny - Was that Chuck Heald’s Repro with the CSMC added .410 barrel set?






.

[Kirk Potter]

Kenny - Was that Chuck Heald’s Repro with the CSMC added .410 barrel set?






.

Factory?

[Dean Romig]

If that’s the one that Kenny reported as sold, it’s not Chuck’s gun. Chuck’s .410 barrels are CSMC barrels and wouldn’t have had those stamping.




.

[Kirk Potter]

If that’s the one that Kenny reported as sold, it’s not Chuck’s gun. Chuck’s .410 barrels are CSMC barrels and wouldn’t have had those stamping.




.

Yes that’s the one that sold. I don’t think it was on there for more than an hour.

[Bob Jurewicz]

This one was listed on GI yesterday morning and was sold before I did my usual AM scouting.
Wish I knew the asking price.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns-reproduction/parker-repro-dhe-28-410-26-2-forends-factory-paperwork-excellent-shape-5-5-lbs-14-1-8-x-1-3-8-x-2-1-8.cfm?gun_id=101083440
Bob Jurewicz

[Brian Dudley]

I’ve contacted some sellers on here and on gunsinternational offering what I’d consider a fair price only to have them respond with a counter offer that’s $25 less than their asking price. I usually don’t even respond after that. Their are guns still for sale on gunbroker that were there when I first joined the PGCA in March, 2016. Makes me wonder what the seller is thinking? After more than a year, maybe, just maybe your price is a too high.



That is nothing. A number of guns have been out there for 6-8 years.

[Bobby Cash]

It's been my experience that when the cost of guns as a percentage of ones gross net value is higher,
so is the perceived value and subsequently the asking price of guns for sale.

Just my .02