Tobin anyone....

[James Palmer]

Anyone have any idea of grade or value on these?

[Rick Losey]

from our very own Researcher

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/22641451

i am sure he will join in and give you a lot more- he has written a few articles on them

[Dean Romig]

It appears that Tobin Arms, Parker Bros. and the Meriden Fire Arms Co. all shared some of the same engravers.





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[Dave Noreen]

I'm travelling and away from my Tobin stuff, but I believe it is a No. 45 Premium Grade. I have one of that grade that also has the A,F & Co. logo in the engraving.

[Drew Hause]

Dave's No. 45E A&F

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22641451/404808540.jpg

[Brian Dudley]

Not valued as high as some may hope.

[James Palmer]

Thanks all.

[chris dawe]

Not valued as high as some may hope.

I agree and its a little unfortunate really ...not to go too off thread here but I likely have in my shop right now one of the rarest Tobin shotguns ever produced ,the stock inletting and metal fitting on that gun are second to none ,my engraver was highly impressed with the scrollwork which pictures don't do justice ....we both agree it was likely finished in England

[Nick de Guerre]

Gents,

Im on vacation and dont have access to my research stuff, but i believe I was able to track the younger Giddings down to Tobin in Ontario. I think I talked it all through with Daryl at the time, so if he recalls what I found perhaps he'll jump in.

It wasnt the father, who was at Remington for years (along with a daughter, who was a checkerer there) but his son, who was also quite talented.

The father was a wood man, and his name also appears on a few Lefevers under the grip cap. But the son was an engraver, unless my facts are scrambled.

Sorry this is a disjointed comment...im on the beach. I'll see if I can post a clarification in a few days when Im home about what I found on Giddings and his progeny.

I dont want to MIS-inform, so hopefully others may have previously looked into the Giddings family can jump in...perhaps Researcher?

- NDG

[Brian Dudley]

Chris,
Is the one you have there a 32” gun?

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris Dawe,

If you are empowered to, I think we'd love to see some pics of that gun, given your description of it.

- NDG

[chris dawe]

it's in pieces right now I'll see what I can do

[King Brown]

Ted S on the other forum may help.

[George Stanton]

Those ducks and the grouse look identical to the ones engraved on my Aubrey.

[Mark Ray]

Those ducks and the grouse look identical to the ones engraved on my Aubrey.

I just got a Model 53, Meriden 16, 2 blade damascus, made in 1919, the ducks look much the same as on my gun, but the seller credited Gough with the engraving. And we all know that sellers, may not be right, but at least they are sure of themselves!,

[Dean Romig]

Right, and the Aubrey was also manufactured in Meriden, CT.





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[Mark Ray]

Meriden duck attributed to Gough

[Dave Noreen]

It seems like Tobin Arms Mfg. Co. was trying to save money on printing blocks as they used the same pictures for the No. 45 Premium Grade --

64872

and the No. 50 Special Pigeon Grade --

64873

This from Catalogue No. 206. The only other catalogue I have from the Connecticut company is Catalogue No. 307 which is virtually identical except for a different cover. I suspect their numbering system means this is their second catalogue and it was put out in 1906 and their third catalogue was put out in 1907. Perhaps their is a No. 105 and a No. 408 out their somewhere. From the Ontario company I know of a large Catalogue No. 110 (the first catalogue they put out and it was in 1910?) and two nearly identical pocket catalogues No. 211 and No. 311.

[Dave Noreen]

,my engraver was highly impressed with the scrollwork which pictures don't do justice ..


In one of his catalogs, G.B. Crandall, the gunsmith who continued to produce Tobin doubles after the company went belly up states -- "We are especially fortunate in having our Mr. J.B. Walker an engraver who has devoted years of study to this art in the best gun plants in England, and who by special aptness through a love of nature in all its moods has developed a skill that enables him to depict in life-like realism those scenes so dear to the sportsman's heart."

[Todd Poer]

Awesome Mark. I think that is first gun I have seen engraved with a Shoveler Duck or is that a Merganser. That is rare. :bowdown:

Second thought that could be a Ruddy duck. Can't make out the tail. It looks like a Brittanies. Just kidding that is neat old engraving.

Ya know gun makers will sometimes name their guns after a game animal and sometimes owners will nickname their guns. You got a candidate.

[chris dawe]

As promised ...

[Mark Ray]

Awesome Mark. I think that is first gun I have seen engraved with a Shoveler Duck or is that a Merganser. That is rare. :bowdown:

Second thought that could be a Ruddy duck. Can't make out the tail. It looks like a Brittanies. Just kidding that is neat old engraving.

Ya know gun makers will sometimes name their guns after a game animal and sometimes owners will nickname their guns. You got a candidate.

Todd, I bought this gun because it was advertised as a 20 bore, and after a little research determined that there are only a VERY few documented Meriden Arms 20's. The gun turned out to be a 16, and research shows that 16 bore Meridens while not as rare as 20's are indeed also very scarce, so I let the seller off the hook and kept the gun. It is quite well made, although VERY heavy. What impresses me, is that this gun has obviously been used a LOT in its lifetime, and cared for sporadically. It is tight as new, and there are no cracks in the wood around the locks. I don't think I have ever seen a Smith that appeared to have this much use, and did not have at least some cracks in the wood.

[Brian Dudley]

Wow, Chris, that is not the gun that I was thinking it was. I knew of another graded To in that ended up in Canada. But it was not that nice!

That thing is a smoke show!

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris,

Thx very much for sharing. Is it signed?

- NDG

[Dean Romig]

I knew of another graded Tobin that ended up in Canada.



According to the maker's legend on the frame - it wasmade in Woodstock, Ontario.




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[Dave Noreen]

I think I have pictures of the same gun but whoever sent them blocked out the first two digits of the serial number on the straight grip trigger guard backstrap leaving only 900 showing. It must be a late gun in the 18xxx or 19xxx serial number range, as it doesn't have a rectangular extension of the barrel lug extending through the bottom of the frame, a feature into the 17xxx range --

65156

The single trigger on this gun appear to be the same as on Frank Tobin's personal gun, but is not the one shown in Tobin catalogues which has a round screwhead button which slides fore and aft ahead of the trigger as on this No. 55ET Model Grade --

65157

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris D,

It would be interesting to know if the engraver is indicated, or any other hidden maker's marks. I can't confirm this with direct evidence...YET...but I believe that George Giddings was at Tobin.

George was the first son of Charles Giddings, who emigrated to the U.S. from England in 1865, and as of 1870 was living in Meriden, CT. He is probably best known for his work at Remington, where his daughter was a checkerer, and his younger son was listed as a "toolmaker." Charles Giddings' name has been seen on the woodwork of a few guns, including Lefevers. (** BTW, there is at least one gun out there that is stamped Charles Giddings, as maker. But it is strikingly similar to a Lefever hammer gun, and I'm not entirely convinced it isn't really just a Lefever gun that he completed. It's owned by a PGCA member.**)

George was born once the Giddings' had moved to Ilion, in 1878, and by 1905 he is listed as living in Fulton, NY with occupation of "gun maker." A Hunter Arms man?

By 1911 the Canadian Census has him living with his wife in Oxford North, Ontario, which is a little village just outside of Woodstock...where Tobin Arms was. But the census lists no occupation details for him, and I've yet to find a directory which references him.

I do not know how long he remained in Canada. He passed away in 1923, and is buried in Ilion.

That's all I have, to date. But I think circumstantially the odds are fairly good that in his years in Ontario he worked at Tobin...otherwise quite a coincidence.

- NDG

[chris dawe]

Nick ,im just in for a quick supper and back in the shop till 9-10 tonight ,when I get a moment I promise to give it a good once over to see what I can find for you in regard to signatures ....10 - 15 hours a day has me beat ...I feel like I'm running tongs and chunking chain again:(

[Nick de Guerre]

Chris D.,

Thanks, that would be great. Hey, if you spent that many hours zipping logs yer lucky to have enough fingers to shoot with!

If yer saw is retired now maybe you should have it engraved. I wonder if Ken Hunt has ever done one...?

- NDG

[chris dawe]

No not timber ...it was the illustrious world of both the land and offshore drilling rig that I was involved in for a few years ....trying to figure out where I belong in the world ;)

[Dean Romig]

Most of us are pretty convinced you belong right here practicing your craft like few others are able.

Thanks for choosing this profession!





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[Nick de Guerre]

No not timber ...it was the illustrious world of both the land and offshore drilling rig that I was involved in for a few years ....trying to figure out where I belong in the world ;)

Oh...funny. It sounded like you were talking about stringing logs and skidding out of the woods.

Both hard jobs!

Please let us know if you see any marks on that frame. If you have the original wood it might be under a grip cap.

- NDG

[Daryl Hallquist]

We've talked about both Tobin and Giddings in this thread. Here's some examples. I am not sure of the relationship of Giddings and Tobin, if any.

https://i.imgur.com/1hbSe2d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xF3umez.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QTEu6jW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FfMM73z.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ycxFMAJ.jpg (https://imgur.com/ycxFMAJ)

[Dean Romig]

Wonderful guns Daryl - wonderful engraving!

Beautiful dogs in that top example but the landscape is something we just don't see on but a scant few American guns.
And the setters on the bottom example appear to have been done by an engraver familiar to Parker aficionados.




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[Daryl Hallquist]

Dean, the setters you refer to could have been done by the fellow you suspect. That gun was made in Norwich. The other Tobin was Frank Major Tobin's gun. I have a bit of family history on it. It has the optional Pyro Oxide [I think I remember the term properly] finish. I cannot guess who the engraver might be. I seriously doubt that this engraving was done in Europe.

[chris dawe]

I just discovered this again, my apologies to all that asked about the gun I had in the shop I'm lousy at taking documentation of what I've done ,found these while looking for pics of my old dog...the gun was eventually completely restored

[Dean Romig]

Pardon me - Chris, those pheasants are dead ringers for pheasants we have seen flying on a couple of LC Smithhs.





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[Drew Hause]

I recently came across this Tobin ad in "Hardware and Metal", Toronto, Sept. 24, 1910

https://archive.org/stream/hardmerchoctdec1910toro/hardmerchoctdec1910toro#page/n113/mode/1up

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24779062/414490057.jpg

[chris dawe]

Yeah I think so Dean

[Brian Dudley]

That one with the deep relief breech balls... wow!

[Dave Noreen]

That one with the deep relief breech balls... wow!

I did an article on that gun, Frank Tobin's personal gun, in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Eight, Issue 1, pages 171 to 176. At that time it was still in possession of the Tobin family.

[Dave Noreen]

BHE Parker Bros.

90749

Tobin

90750

[Dean Romig]

Yup, same engraver for sure. Thanks Dave.






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[jefferyconnor]

The Tobin locking system seems really good to me. It has horizontal rotation vs. the Brown axial (?) rotation that LC Smith, Fox, and the NID have. Both systems seem very plausible and strong to me. I've always liked the idea of the Greener crossbolt too, but I have only read of the later Baker using it, in American doubles.

[Dave Noreen]

Edward George Parry used the "Greener" cross-bolt in his guns. In conjunction with his patented "rear acting" under-bolt on his Quality 2 guns --

90771

90772

and alone on his Quality 1 guns --

90773

The Tobin bolting system looks for all the world like Ansley H. Fox's Patent No. 714,688 granted Dec. 2, 1902, assigned to Philadelphia Arms Co. though PAC didn't use it. I've always suspected that patent wasn't used because it was applied for Jan. 17, 1902, when Ansley was still employed by Winchester Repeating Arms Co. The patent for the Philadelphia Arms Co. locks was done with Ansley's brother, Harry Hunter Fox's name and the PAC ejectors patent was done under the name Max Wirsing, both of Baltimore.

[Daryl Hallquist]

Interesting stuff. The later Bakers, at least in higher grades, often had a Greener type crossbolt.

[Ken Descovich]

Robert Liddle from San Francisco ca used the Greener cross bolt also at least on one shotgun he made that I own.

[Drew Hause]

N.R. Davis & Sons c. 1900

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23181554/413824447.jpg

[jefferyconnor]

"Edward George Parry used the "Greener" cross-bolt in his guns. In conjunction with his patented "rear acting" under-bolt on his Quality 2 guns"

The rear acting bolt would seemingly serve to help pin the barrels to the breech, a plausible feature. The Baker has cams in the lump and frame to push the barrels back also.
I like the idea in theory of the barrel extension bolting systems as they seem to have the possibility of pinning the barrels to the breech, establishing a true lock. I.e. the Greener, Brown, and Tobin bolting systems.

[Drew Hause]

Interesting information in the 3rd FAQ in the "Design and Engineering" section; What is the advantage of the "Treble Wedge Extension Rib" Rotary Lock Bolt?
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784

[jefferyconnor]

Thanks, Drew that was interesting. Greener says, "wedges the barrels to the standing breech". Other systems more or less just hold the barrels down, which works out in practice. E.g. as the Parker and Winchester 21 are two of the best made and practically functional guns and don't wedge or pin the barrels at all, which shows the importance of execution and quality steel vs. design.

[jefferyconnor]

Robert Liddle from San Francisco ca used the Greener cross bolt also at least on one shotgun he made that I own.

That's a nice gun from a maker I've never heard of! Would you consider posting more pictures of it so we could discuss and learn more about it?