German Mystery Gun “Ant. Bennsman”

[Joe Graziano]

https://imgur.com/a/hvECoAH

I recently purchased this German hammer shotgun at auction. It was inexpensive so I took a bit of a flyer on it but I really don’t know much about it. German guns other than Krieghoff are a mystery to me. A note with the gun mentioned they were an importer for Western Field, 1935-1945. If anyone can decipher the proof marks and stamps on the barrels and water table, it’s much appreciated. It’s a 16 gauge with 30 in barrels. sliver forend, and horn butt plate. The top rib is marked Ant. Bensmann Ludinghaussen I. Westf.

[Brian Dudley]

It is belgian, not german.

It has been refinished. Hot blued by the looks of it. Careful of those barrels.

[Robin Lewis]

It is belgian, not german.

It has been refinished. Hot blued by the looks of it. Careful of those barrels.
Brian,

I know that hot blue of double barrels can cause problems with the solder joints but:
1) How can a novas gun person tell a hot blue job from a cold blue job?

2) As in this case, how would one evaluate if a hot blue job did indeed harm the barrels or that they came through unscathed?

[Rick Losey]

on most European guns- the country of origin proof marks are pretty easy to recognize-
max loads and date id's take some study- but, it would seem that having the basics would be a good idea for folks who like these old guns

some starting points

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

[edgarspencer]

I'm not convinced the barrels are hot blued. The underside photos certainly don't exhibit the black, shiny finish I would expect to see on a hot blued surface. Whatever the case, the 'ring' test will give you a pretty good idea of the soundness of soldered joint integrity.

[Joe Graziano]

Thanks for the info thus far. The proof information is great. Thank you for posting. I will certainly ensure the barrels are sound before shooting. While I’ve yet to find info on Bennsman as a gunmaker, even today Bennsman is a fairly common name in Ludinghaussen, Germany in the current German state of North Rhine-Westfalia. That seems to make sense regarding the rib inscription. I will spend more time attempting to decipher all the stamps, which are absolutely Belgian. Ludinghaussen is not far from the border. Would a German maker have sent a gun to Liege for proof? From what I can tell, it seems to have been made during the Weimar Republic years, in 1926.

[Drew Hause]

Liege makers supplied guns for dealers all over the world.
The lettre annale is indeed 1926
16.9 & 16.8 are the bores in mm.
It carries Smokeless Proof.
The chambers are 65mm = 2 1/2"
I've not seen that stylized 'P' - it could be Pire
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pire%20gb.htm

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18490292/386350843.jpg

[Joe Graziano]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your excellent information. This is fascinating and a lot of fun. I think we have this mystery 90% solved. This gun matches the J Pire ad exactly. From what you have sent me and what I could find, I have a:

-"Fusil Buffalo" 16 gauge hammer shotgun with 30 in barrels

-Manufactured by Jules Pire and Company, 10 rue Van Ertborn, Antwerp, Belgium

-Year of manufacture is 1926 (script "e")

-It was made for the seller, Ant. Bensmann, Ludinghaussen, Westfalia, Germany (inscribed on top rib)

-Chambers are 2 1/2 in. (in sideways omega looking sign, along with gauge)

-Chokes are not exactly easy to decipher but this is my best guess. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The right barrel is only marked with the bore diameter, 16.9. This appears reasonable for a 16 gauge. The left is marked 16.9 CHOKE 16.8. I'm not sure how to do the conversions but I would guess this makes it cylinder in the right barrel and I/C in the left.

-Nitro proofed (stick figure animal over P.V)

-Provisional proof ("euro" looking sign intertwined with "British pound" looking sign

-Conformity with German proof law (crown with bubble below)

-Barrels with 1 kg 359

-Proof of breach system (perron)

-Controller of proof codes, Hubert Charlier 1923-53 (U with a * over)

-Remaining mysteries: stylized large "P" on barrels, 98 and 99 on water table, 98 on lug, 99 on barrel flats, on the barrel flats between the "e" and "PV" stamps, a small "P" with a * above.

Much thanks for your help!

Joe

[Joe Graziano]

I typed the Fusil Buffalo ad into Google translate, understanding this is not the best, and learned a couple additional things. Standard barrel length was 27.5 inches. This must have been special ordered with 30 inch tubes. A buyer could also order with custom wood at no extra charge with a 65-day delivery time. It also came with "canons acier fin, bronzes noir brilliant", which I assume refers to shiny black barrels?

[Joe Graziano]

I think I have figured out the strange looking P or J, as a few have described. It's an intertwined J and P, depending on which way you look at it. I assume for "Jules Pire". One way, it's a P. Flip it upside down, It's a J.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

sounds like a great little gun, I cant seem to view the pictures on my desk computer, but will try later on my laptop. I recently bit on a 16 hammer gun at a local show, and really enjoy shooting it. The makers name on the rib is to blurred to read, it has fluid steel 30" cyl/F chokes, cheek piece, sling swivels, and has both German and Belgian proof marks. The guys at the German Gun Collectors Assoc. went over it at the Southern, but couldnt figure it out. It is a little off face, but I usually shoot 2 1/2" 3/4 oz loads thru it. It weighs only 5 3/4 lbs. Im going to hunt with it this fall.
I think you will enjoy shooting yours

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Was able to view the gun on my phone, nice gun. Yes , the barrels are shiny black, but receiver also retains alot of color.

[Joe Graziano]

Harold, beautiful gun. For me, I buy a gun to shoot it. I appreciate collector’s value in an old gun. Like everyone here, I love old shotguns. That said, I buy a gun to shoot it and to me, nothing is more fun than a hammer shotgun, followed closely by any Parker hammerless. Your little 16 makes an excellent bird gun. I intend to do the same with mine. I have a very special quail hunt this fall with my father and son and plan to use mine for that.

[Joe Graziano]

Other than RST, do you know a source for 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 16 ga shells? I understand my gun has 2.5 in chambers. I didn't see any reasonably priced 16 ga shells on line at Cabelas. My local Wally World has precisely 1 box of Federal 16 ga.

[Rick Losey]

https://polywad.com/vintager-shells

i have used their 16ga loads as well

[Joe Graziano]

I finally have the mystery gun in hand. It is pretty much as I described but will post some additional pics, hopefully tonight. First thing I checked were the barrels, which ring like church bells. I'm not sure how they were blued, but the blue has largely turned a pleasing plum and is thin in spots and especially at the muzzles. The dent in the right barrel is tiny and does not protrude into the bore. The bores are perfect mirrors. It has shallow side clips, which I had not previously noticed. The rib inscription is as stated, Ant. Bennsman Ludinghaussen I. Westf. It makes no sense but that is what it reads. It appears to be a Belgian gun made to look like a German gun, likely for the German market. How it got to the US is anyone's guess, but with no import marks, a GI's duffel bag wouldn't be surprising considering its date of manufacture, 1926. The wood was refinished and probably not by a professional. It looks OK, good enough for now. The only problem I could find is the right hammer, which is loose. How does one tighten a loose hammer? Other than that, the gun appears in excellent condition, balances just forward of the hinge pin and feels great in the hand. I think I will enjoy it in the field.

[Drew Hause]

Joe: the gun has been refinished, and has "mirror bores", which very likely means it has been honed. Please carefully measure the chamber length, and have someone with the interest and expertise measure the wall thickness from breech to 18", and MWT.

[Joe Graziano]

Drew, thanks for the advice. I have made arrangements to have the gun inspected, wall thickness measured, etc. It doesn’t appear much has been done to the gun at all, other than an owner long ago putting another coat of varnish on the wood.

[Joe Graziano]

A quick update on the mystery gun. Yep, a late Belgian hammergun made to look like a German gun. Nicely built. Looks great and a very sweet shooter. It’s light but the 30 in barrels keep it from being whippy. I’ll shoot it at the Vintage Gunners cup here soon.

[Joe Graziano]

This gun is turning into one of my favorites. With 7/8 oz loads, feels great. And with it, managed to tie for first in 16 ga. hammer gun at the Vintagers:) Not amazing shooting, but not bad. And now, to hunting season...

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Joe, I am trying to decide whether to take my Belgian hammer 20 or the 16 on my grouse trip. Both have 30" barrels, the 20 is a real grouse slayer. The barrels are London Twist.
Robin had asked how one could determine whether a gun was hot blued or not,
I would be very interested in that answer.

[Joe Graziano]

Harold, beautiful hammer gun and grouse. If you have the 20, you certainly can’t go wrong with it. I’m looking for a 20 bore hammer gun to go with the 16. I’m not sure either on the bluing. Obviously, hot blued barrels would have a shiny, mirror like appearance, at least when first finished. On my gun, I really can’t tell. The barrels have mostly turned a nice plumb color. I’ll let you know how I do with it on quail.